How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:48 am

(DISCLAIMER: I doubt any idea will be so obviously overpowered that everyone will agree it is the key to conquering Erfworld. Don't let that dissuade ya from trying to come up with one though!)

Lamech wrote:Exponential dwagon growth! They presumably have more mountains than just reachable. Use dwagons in relay to extend the archon range.


I like this, and it's very Parsonesque. I doubt that "exponential dwagon growth" can be sustained on a finite Erfworld, with a finite amount of mountain ranges, but at least it would appear that the hammer can tame and tame and tame again in a turn, so why not try and use relays for extra reach?

The big problem is that in such a large territory as will have to be covered, there will be enemy troops. The point of taming runs was to avoid such encounters and just focus on taming Dwagons. This means it will be very easy for enemies of GK to throw a spanner in this plan, even without coordinating/communicating. They just need to leave some units in the relay path, even just by accident.

That said, in one or two turns GK could potentially gain very many Dwagons, assuming there are many mountain ranges reachable by relays, and that's always a good thing.

Sieggy wrote:Something simpler, that I've mentioned before - gunpowder. {...}
What made firearms so popular when introduced was that with minimal training, Joachim T. Serf could be converted into a lethal killer with quite a reach (vide "The Man Who Would Be King") at a relatively low cost.


Indeed, the earlier firearms were piss-poor in accuracy and range when compared to bows and crossbows; also took much longer to reload. They had all disadvantages, except for the fact that bows (and to a lesser extent crossbows) required a lot of physical conditioning for the user to be effective.

On the one hand, this conditioning is not necessary in Erfworld. Archers pop as archers, they don't have to be forbidden from football to practice hoisting their body weight with just two fingers.

On the other, there's no need for the first firearms in Erfworld to be piss-poor. Parson may instruct the trolls to make breach loading, rifle barrelled, hand cannons of doom.

On the third hand, Erfworld will probably interpret this as some kind of Shockamancy item. I doubt in world of bloodless humanoids that chemistry will operate exactly the same (though, of course, REDOX disagrees).

On the fourth hand (shut up, I'm counting on an octopus), tech alone doesn't win battles. Parson may have the design, but he needs to produce it en-masse.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:44 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:So yeah ...

... anyone else interested in salvaging this thread and try to cook up ways for Parson to win the game in 50 turns or less?


Something to sink my teeth into. And the answer is:

Not even remotely possible.

Okay, here's the problem with any theory that would involve not taking Charlie out next:

Charlie can Link. He can contact every Side that has any Caster and turn that caster into a game changer. Every Caster will use their power differently, so it cannot be prepared for. Parson can deal, I hope, with these, but in the end, every battle will cost time to recover, and that means lost Turns.


Consequently, though Parson can win without taking out Charlie next, it is simply not feasible to do it in 50 Turns. Charlie is just too destructive.

So, the next question is: Can Parson take out Charlie in 50 Turns?

Easy answer. Heck, no.

I have, in another thread, presented my own strategy for taking out Charlescomm. Here are the problems to overcome:
1) Charlescomm is located in mountains
2) One of the best defensive positions
3) Defended by a horde of Archons. One enemy unit type: Knight class, casts from up to 4 disciplines, flies, can Dancefight
4) Known as good employer to Magic Kingdom
5) Potentially massive treasury (to hire casters)
6) Immune to Foolamancy

Our Advantages:
1) Monotonic opponent. Cannot enter tunnels. Uses juice and has limited usefulness when run dry.
2) Enemy has limited bonuses outside Charlescomm itself. No Chief Warlord, no artifact.

Not many. So here's what you need to do:
a) Capture city that can pop [edit: MOUNTAIN] capable units.
b) Find a Gobwin. Use whatever you need and get popping Gobwins. (Tunnel/Digger capable units.)
c) Use distractions to create tunnels that can nconnect to dungeon from hex beside Charlescomm.
d) Launch siege against Charlescomm.
e) Crash tunnels and enter dungeons. Hobgob knights can ride spiddews throguh tunnels (even though they can't walk through... go fig). Decrypted Archons are Knight class and can ride Spidews in, too. (Speaking only of any units killed on the approach to the city, since those in Jetstone are probably toast.)
f) Assault on all City Zones. Mountain units on siege, Light and diggers in tunnels, dwagons and other air in Airspace. Force Archons to split and separate.
9) Improvise.

Point is, taking Charlescomm takes a lot of prep work just to pop the units capable of taking it. You're not getting Charlie without dozens of turns, if not hundreds, popping the Unit types that can even approach his City. That alone blows over the 50 Turn limit.

What they should have been doing on the way to Jetstone is transferring any Units of the right type to GK, instead of taking them on to Jetstone.
Last edited by Kreistor on Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:49 am

Kreistor wrote:So, the next question is: Can Parson take out Charlie in 50 Turns?

Easy answer. Heck, no.

I have, in another thread, presented my own strategy for taking out Charlescomm. Here are the problems to overcome:
1) Charlescomm is located in mountains
2) One of the best defensive positions
3) Defended by a horde of Archons. One enemy unit type: Knight class, casts from up to 4 disciplines, flies, can Dancefight
4) Known as good employer to Magic Kingdom
5) Potentially massive treasury (to hire casters)
6) Immune to Foolamancy

Our Advantages:
1) Monotonic opponent. Cannot enter tunnels. Uses juice and has limited usefulness when run dry.
2) Enemy has limited bonuses outside Charlescomm itself. No Chief Warlord, no artifact.


Almost all of Charlie's advantages (except the horde of archons) can be rendered moot if decrypted casters can still cast and link. That's the real game-breaking combo. Casters are very powerful units but break REALLY easily. Targeted assassinations in the MK by GK's side can create an army of fanatical casters who can then enter Charlie's city via the MK Portal. The only ones who could see it coming - the predictamancers - are already on GK's side.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:41 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Kreistor wrote:So, the next question is: Can Parson take out Charlie in 50 Turns?

Easy answer. Heck, no.

I have, in another thread, presented my own strategy for taking out Charlescomm. Here are the problems to overcome:
1) Charlescomm is located in mountains
2) One of the best defensive positions
3) Defended by a horde of Archons. One enemy unit type: Knight class, casts from up to 4 disciplines, flies, can Dancefight
4) Known as good employer to Magic Kingdom
5) Potentially massive treasury (to hire casters)
6) Immune to Foolamancy

Our Advantages:
1) Monotonic opponent. Cannot enter tunnels. Uses juice and has limited usefulness when run dry.
2) Enemy has limited bonuses outside Charlescomm itself. No Chief Warlord, no artifact.


Almost all of Charlie's advantages (except the horde of archons) can be rendered moot if decrypted casters can still cast and link. That's the real game-breaking combo. Casters are very powerful units but break REALLY easily. Targeted assassinations in the MK by GK's side can create an army of fanatical casters who can then enter Charlie's city via the MK Portal. The only ones who could see it coming - the predictamancers - are already on GK's side.


We don't even have one decrypted caster, much less a horde. How do you plan on getting so many, when they are all located in Capitals with access to portals? GK may get the Healamancer, Dittomancer, Ace, and Hatmagician, but that's just four.

Further, Ossomer has now demonstrated that Decrypted Commanders can Turn. They are not automatically fanatical. Once away from Wanda, the horde attacking Charlescomm may turn on itself.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:09 pm

Kreistor wrote:We don't even have one decrypted caster, much less a horde. How do you plan on getting so many, when they are all located in Capitals with access to portals? GK may get the Healamancer, Dittomancer, Ace, and Hatmagician, but that's just four.


The number of casters that is in the MK at any one time has been shown to be significant. You target the casters in the MK (starting at Portal Park and working your way out).
If you have the money, GK could even hire most of them for a single turn, position them at various points around the capital so that they are all separated, then have heavy units positioned next to them simultaneously turn on them and kill them.
It worked for the Emperor against the Jedi, and all the Jedi were predictamancers. :D

Kreistor wrote:Further, Ossomer has now demonstrated that Decrypted Commanders can Turn. They are not automatically fanatical. Once away from Wanda, the horde attacking Charlescomm may turn on itself.


Ossomer's loyalty was tested VERY heavily, and Wanda was far away. And you don't need a horde of casters to swarm Charlescomm - a few tri-mancer linked uberspells in a row would surely be sufficient. Thinkamancer-Shockamancer-Dittomancer link starts blasting significant amounts of archons (who have been shown to be pretty fragile as well) who Wanda immediately decrypts. We've seen the damage that a single tri-caster link can do to a battlefield. Four or five of them should be more than sufficient to take the Portal Room from Charles and start wreaking havoc.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:20 pm

MarbitChow wrote:The number of casters that is in the MK at any one time has been shown to be significant. You target the casters in the MK (starting at Portal Park and working your way out).


You're going to attack... the casters... in Portal Park?

MUAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHA!

At the end of tBoGK, Parson stepped through and was quickly surrounded by 8, and we can see at least one Master-class Thinkamancer in that group. If somehow you think that an overestimate, take a look at Panel 3...

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-07-16.jpg

And see 6 wandering casters inside 40 feet of the Jetstone Portal that are not Thinkamancers.

Even if you could somehow convince a Caster to attack other casters in the MK (which would easily be against the better interests of the Ruler and could not be an Order), you're not going to get many to do it. Wanda, sure. She won't care. Sizemore, Maggie, Jack? Not a hope in Hades of them participating.

No, this isn't even remotely possible. Any aggression would be quickly curb-stomped.

Frankly, I think the Casters involved would step through and get stomped by a Thinkamancer Link-up inspired by Predictamancers that saw it coming. I would be distinctly surprised if the Predictamancers did not spend lots of their time Predicting future threas to the well-being of the MK, to head those off long before they could occur.

Ossomer's loyalty was tested VERY heavily, and Wanda was far away.


She has been far away from others she has used Suggestion on, and it didn't break. One hex or 10000 aren't necessarily any different for this effect. You don't actually need a large number of the casters to be vulnerable to this effect. Essentially, though, each one that is costs you one that isn't, on average. If 1 in 10 are, then your forces are going to be diminished to 80% once it's over, and your overwhelming force becomes only a whelming force... if that.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:59 pm

Kreistor wrote:You're going to attack... the casters... in Portal Park? MUAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHA!

Way to completely ignore the 2nd option (hire / croak / decrypt a bunch), which would then net you more than enough casters to attempt the 1st option...

Kreistor wrote:Frankly, I think the Casters involved would step through and get stomped by a Thinkamancer Link-up inspired by Predictamancers that saw it coming. I would be distinctly surprised if the Predictamancers did not spend lots of their time Predicting future threas to the well-being of the MK, to head those off long before they could occur.

You're forgetting that both the Thinkamancers (granted, the Thinkamancers currently have a funny way of showing it) and the Predictamancers currently appear to favor Parson. If those two groups are NOT targeted, but are actually in on it, it becomes significantly easier.

Kreistor wrote:She has been far away from others she has used Suggestion on, and it didn't break. One hex or 10000 aren't necessarily any different for this effect. You don't actually need a large number of the casters to be vulnerable to this effect. Essentially, though, each one that is costs you one that isn't, on average. If 1 in 10 are, then your forces are going to be diminished to 80% once it's over, and your overwhelming force becomes only a whelming force... if that.

Wanda has decrypted thousands of units, and dozens (maybe hundreds) of warlords. We've seen ONE decrypted unit turn, and that was after he was isolated from all other GK units, and placed in a position to attack his OWN FATHER, while being given sufficient time to remember that honor was the single most important thing to him, and that same honor did not appear to be important to his new side.

Seeing as how none of the casters were popped by Charlie, and Charlie's philosophy is entirely mercenary, there's little likelihood of someone turning during the assault on his citadel.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:01 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Way to completely ignore the 2nd option (hire / croak / decrypt a bunch), which would then net you more than enough casters to attempt the 1st option...


We have to snip somewhere, or the tree grows to create ever larger posts. Hiring to attack in the MK is probably line item 1 in the Conventions, or eveyr War would spill over to casters attacking their enemy's Sides in MK. Croak/decrypt lacks details on how you're finding enough casters to overwhelm Portal Park, so it's an incomplete pipedream.

You're forgetting that both the Thinkamancers (granted, the Thinkamancers currently have a funny way of showing it) and the Predictamancers currently appear to favor Parson. If those two groups are NOT targeted, but are actually in on it, it becomes significantly easier.


Wishful thinking.

Wanda has decrypted thousands of units, and dozens (maybe hundreds) of warlords. We've seen ONE decrypted unit turn, and that was after he was isolated from all other GK units, and placed in a position to attack his OWN FATHER, while being given sufficient time to remember that honor was the single most important thing to him, and that same honor did not appear to be important to his new side.


How many decrypted Warlords have spent a single Turn in a different Hex from Wanda? We don't have enough reference yet to asume that they are fanatical when out of her presence, or when asked to do something against their nature, like Ossomer was. You're ordering them around like automatons to act against Convention, but the Convention may be very important to many Casters, and they could all break the moment they enter the MK. Honor was important to Ossomer, and dishonor broke him. Convention seems important to Casters, and breaking the Convention may strain their sensibilities in exactly the same way.

Seeing as how none of the casters were popped by Charlie, and Charlie's philosophy is entirely mercenary, there's little likelihood of someone turning during the assault on his citadel.


And little likelihood of getting the caster numbers you need. They still have captured none from all of the cities and that includes Unaroyal's capital. If they get Jetstones, you're only going to see casters moved to the MK earlier than they would normally.

Basically, your theory lacks control in order to ensure it can be enacted. You're relying on Casters being made vulnerable to attack and capture. GK may get a few, but it certainly isn't going to get large enough numbers to overwhelm over a hundred Archons.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:29 pm

Kreistor wrote:We have to snip somewhere, or the tree grows to create ever larger posts. Hiring to attack in the MK is probably line item 1 in the Conventions, or eveyr War would spill over to casters attacking their enemy's Sides in MK. Croak/decrypt lacks details on how you're finding enough casters to overwhelm Portal Park, so it's an incomplete pipedream.

Hire 50 casters to come to GK on a single turn. Position each of these casters alone somewhere in the capital, near enough heavy units to croak them outright in a surprise attack. Kill all 50 casters you've just hired. Decrypt. You now have 50 zero-upkeep casters on your side. Have them walk back into Portal Park and start linking / blasting / killing. If there are 2 dozen casters wandering around portal park and 4 dozen come out and start killing in a coordinated manner, Portal Park falls quickly.

I'm going to ignore arguments that state "decrypted casters will turn from Wanda when she makes them do something they don't want to do" because we've seen exactly ONE instance of this occuring out of the 1000s of units she has turned. Ansom flew back and forth on the Dwagon Relay to check in w/ Stanley and he never stopped loving her, even when he had HATED her before he was decrypted.

A perfectly valid counter to this ploy would be that decrypted casters can't use juice. Fear of a few turnings is not.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:10 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Hire 50 casters to come to GK on a single turn. Position each of these casters alone somewhere in the capital, near enough heavy units to croak them outright in a surprise attack.


Stop. You can't. Contracts in Erfworld have absolute power, via Natural Thinkamancy. If the Ruler signs a contract with Casters, his entire Side will be unable to attack them.

Further, you would be hiring the Casters to perform a specific task, and you would be unable to get them to do something else. Expecting even a single one to go to GK to "Stand around" while GK has an Arkentool that can decrypt them is simply wishful thinking. Sizemore has already revealed that the Casters in MK are extremely wary/scared shitless of Wanda. It's doubtful GK could hire anyone in the MK right now after the Volcano Uncroak massacre.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:26 pm

Kreistor wrote:Stop. You can't. Contracts in Erfworld have absolute power, via Natural Thinkamancy. If the Ruler signs a contract with Casters, his entire Side will be unable to attack them.

So have Wanda and her whole army of decrypted go barbarian and attack.

Kreistor wrote:Sizemore has already revealed that the Casters in MK are extremely wary/scared shitless of Wanda. It's doubtful GK could hire anyone in the MK right now after the Volcano Uncroak massacre.

A perfectly valid counter-argument.

I will note that there are a number of MK casters who are very frightened of risking MK's neutrality by allowing capital sides to be invaded. There has to be a reason for that other than "it's not proper". There *is* a way to threaten the MK. I just don't know what it is. Maybe magical constructs don't de-pop like regular units when they go through the portal, and a flood of golems or whatever could do serious damage?
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:34 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Stop. You can't. Contracts in Erfworld have absolute power, via Natural Thinkamancy. If the Ruler signs a contract with Casters, his entire Side will be unable to attack them.

So have Wanda and her whole army of decrypted go barbarian and attack.


And put her in a position where she can attack and capture GK to create her own Side? Stanley's much more paranoid than to allow that. Non-Royal Sides don't split, so right now, Wanda is stuck right where she is, trapped in Stanley's power. He's distrustful, since I think he's worried that the Tool will permit her to break some rules, but that's just more evidence of paranoia. Though, in this case, I think it's a valid worry. It might let her betray him directly to take his power. Not that I think she wants to Rule: I very much think she has no interest in Ruling at all. She's happy as a clam right where she is, except when things go south.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:51 pm

Kreistor wrote:Wanda is stuck right where she is, trapped in Stanley's power.

Have Wanda defect to Jillian, taking Parson and the casters with her. This is a theoretical "How can Parson win" thread, not a "How can Stanley win".
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:27 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Have Wanda defect to Jillian, taking Parson and the casters with her. This is a theoretical "How can Parson win" thread, not a "How can Stanley win".


There are so many problems with that, it's hard to find a starting position.

"Have Wanda"? Who "has" her do this? If Wanda doesn't want to do it, there's no one to ask her to. Parson couldn't conspire in this way thanks to el Summoning Spello. Besides that, Parson knows nothing about Queen Jillian, so couldn't make the suggestion.

Not going to win without the Arkenhammer. No dwagons to fight Archons with.

FAQ is also extremely vulnerable to Transylvito, which knows the location and is heavily flying oriented. Sally the troops and get squashed while away from home. Transylvito has excellent scouting, so will know you're vulnerable.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Swodaems » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:17 pm

If we're talking winning the game by first finding a credible way to assault the MK, then fire is our best friend there. The story has already told us that.
Janis wrote:Forgive me. It's like... Looking at a little loose flame. When all the world is one great forest hex.*
Depending on how you take that quote, it can be stated that if Parson can hire a shockamancer or use the casters at his disposal in such a way as to create a sizable forest fire, then he is fully capable of destroying most of what exists in the MK. Depending on circumstances, there may be no need for him or his casters to engage in combat with other casters at all.

Of course, (issues caused by potential ability of the MK to fight fires aside,) large scale destruction, death, and resurrection may not be the best way to get the Magic Kingdom's power considering Decrypted can turn. Fortunately the Magic Kingdom has shown to be full of targets of varying importance. A 300 boxer will be able to beat you to a pulp no matter what you do, but grabbing his nuts and squeezing is a good way to prevent him from trying.

There is no glory in poisoning an enemy village's wells, but it is often hard to argue with the results from a tactical standpoint. (Unless good public opinion is considered one of your goals, of course.) The most important target we've seen to in the whole Magic Kingdom is by far the Hippiemancer's fields. While we lack full information on how the Magic Kingdom's economy functions, it's probably a safe guess to say that the Hippiemancer's fields probably provide the majority of the raw upkeep for at least the Hippiemancers and possibly for the entire Magic Kingdom.

If the Hippiemancers' fields are lost, then a whole lot of casters are going to need a source of either schmuckers or rations to tide them over until the Hippiemancers rebuild. The denizens of GK are literally richer than kings at the moment and could buy a large amount of rands at discount price. (Once Rands can no longer be used to buy food from the fields, their value would take a fall.) They could also lend out money and make the terms on the repayment plans for whatever loans they give things like "No working for Charlie" or "Do an undefined favor for us at a later date." Decrypting debtors who can't pay up is also an option, but should be done carefully depending on how you wish for people to perceive you.

Of course, if Parson does decide to order an attack on the Hippiemancers' fields, then Sizemore's knowledge of it will be invaluable. He does a lot of work there after all.

(*When I first read that line, I went "Wow. Obvious foreshadowing much?". I'm guessing a fire will start as part of Marie's 'big impoatant mess' and lay the ground work for some act by Parson that Rob will be expecting us to perceive as somewhat heroic that puts the MK in his debt. (People in Erfworld may not know how to fight fire once it gets past the 'blow out' stage. Ordering Sizemore to build a nicely placed fire break (AKA. a simple ditch) may gain him a large amount of praise) Hopefully his plan for afterward would involve killing the predictamancers because I'm really not in favor of authority figures rewarding underlings for giving their superiors plausible deniailbility by ignoring their transgressions.)
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby Kreistor » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:27 pm

Me-ta-phor.
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Re: How Parson could win the game in 50 turns or less.

Postby meatmountain27 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:51 pm

Wanda has decrypted thousands of units, and dozens (maybe hundreds) of warlords. We've seen ONE decrypted unit turn, and that was after he was isolated from all other GK units, and placed in a position to attack his OWN FATHER, while being given sufficient time to remember that honor was the single most important thing to him, and that same honor did not appear to be important to his new side.

How many decrypted Warlords have spent a single Turn in a different Hex from Wanda? We don't have enough reference yet to asume that they are fanatical when out of her presence, or when asked to do something against their nature, like Ossomer was. You're ordering them around like automatons to act against Convention, but the Convention may be very important to many Casters, and they could all break the moment they enter the MK. Honor was important to Ossomer, and dishonor broke him. Convention seems important to Casters, and breaking the Convention may strain their sensibilities in exactly the same way.



We definitely have one MAJOR example of an errant warlord that hasn't changed sides yet: Prince Hanson. There is no evidence that a change of side is in the making and he was supposedly "in love" with his current kidnapper. You would have thought he would have turned when she dropped her mount on him. Maybe length of time spent as a decrypted unit is a factor, as Ossomer was a relatively new member of Wanda's gang.

But honestly, I think an easy way to "win" is not a viable option. If it was possible at all, I would imagine it would be an uber-spell created by linking the various high level casters we have already been introduced to (Hippiemancer, Predictamancers and Thinkamancers, so far) that are definitely committed to ending the eternal conflicts fought in Erfworld. They have already colluded towards this goal by creating the spell that brought Parson into Erfworld.

And, in my opinion, an easy win would make for a very boring, not to mention short, web-comic.
meatmountain27
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