Why is Parson in Erfworld?

[MarbitChow]

You created a convoluted explanation of demi-godlike beings subtly influencing the thoughts of all active rulers in order to explain the view that it's a game rather than a simulation. That's not "covering it" - that's inventing an explanation out of NOTHING in order to justify your theory.

[Kreistor]

And that's different from your "malicious asswipes" theory in what way?

And no, you didn't read the relevant sections. I distinctly discuss both of your "facts" individually in Post 1. You're just operating on memory, instead of reviewing my post.

[MarbitChow]

[quote='Kreistor']So, at what level do they play the game? When we play Civilization, we make all the decisions for all the people. Erfworld appears to be running on its own, so the intervention must be inherently subtle. For minds of demigod status, simply forcing people to your will is dissatisfactory. You want more complex, more difficult decisions to make -- a hint of insight here, a detail fo a spell's effect there. But fundamentally, even in a game where everyone is equal, where there is luck, there should be a winner. [/quote]

You mean this section? Yeah, I read that before I posted. In order for Erfworld to switch from "simulation" to "game", you are required to have the invisible hand of the Titans subtly influencing otherwise-free-willed creatures into doing their bidding. This level of subtly from the "oops, I dropped a gem" Titans? Really?

[Kreistor]

Complex creatures require complex games to challenge themselves. Complex does not imply perfect or infallible.

[MarbitChow]

You keep trying to paint a picture of these demi-godlike intelligences that require superhuman complexity for their entertainment, and yet they can't see the basic fact that the system was unwinnable when it's obvious to us mere mortals? Every argument you use to reinforce the "game vs. simulation" theory undercuts the "they didn't know they couldn't win" theory. If there was one creator, I could maybe see it as an oversight. But 3+ demi-godlike intelligences all overlooking the fundamental flaw?

[Kreistor]

No, I don't. That's your spin at work.

[MarbitChow]

Ok, I get that you're not going to budge on the game vs. simulation assumption.

How do you prevent cheating? You lock the world so that no one can change it until the game has ended.

How does this last bit make ANY sense at all? If all these demigods have looked over the board, and they have realized that the game cannot be won, what prevents them from just resetting the game with new rules? Is there one moronic Titan who thinks he still has a shot at pulling it off, and he refuses to stop playing, and the other Titans can't make him stop? Are they bound by some mystical oath?

How did the Titans create a world that even they can't destroy?

[Kreistor]

How does this last bit make ANY sense at all?

Basic arrogance. We have the advantage of hindsight to see the various forces interact to prevent victory. Until you've created it, the flaw doesn't necessarily reveal itself just by thinking about Rules interactions. Anyone that has played MMORPG's and dealt with 40 person raid targets know that. You know the abilities of the monster, you develop a plan to deal with it, and then lose over and over as little details you didn't foresee kick you down. You modify the plan until it works, and by the time it does, everyone is bone weary from failure. But I guarantee when they wlaked in for the first fight, everyone was convinced of a quick victory. Same kind of deal. Come up with an idea, develop it, lock it down because it's a "flawless" plan, and boom, you're locked out of fixing the problems.

Oh, there's another possibility. I forgot how MMO's are designed. Each person designs one section, so that no one person has 100% knowledge so that when anyone leaves, no one can reproduce the entire game. If different Titans were responsible for different parts without permitting communicating their parts to the others (providing every Titan with some joy of discovery as they play), then no one could foresee the complex interactions between different desginers' products preventing victory.

If all these demigods have looked over the board, and they have realized that the game cannot be won, what prevents them from just resetting the game with new rules?

What happens when you have Read Only permission? Can you delete the file?

Is there one moronic Titan who thinks he still has a shot at pulling it off, and he refuses to stop playing, and the other Titans can't make him stop? Are they bound by some mystical oath?

Possibles. But I my contention is that Parson's presence is intended to provide the Victory they can't achieve. Post 1, remember? Already dealt with this.

How did the Titans create a world that even they can't destroy?

Read Only permission to prevent cheating. If you can't change it, you can't destroy it.

[MarbitChow]

Each person designs one section, so that no one person has 100% knowledge so that when anyone leaves, no one can reproduce the entire game. If different Titans were responsible for different parts without permitting communicating their parts to the others (providing every Titan with some joy of discovery as they play), then no one could foresee the complex interactions between different desginers' products preventing victory.

So, each Titan designed a certain aspect of the game, none of them discussed it with each other, and once the rules were explained to them, none of them spotted the fact that they couldn't possibly win, and yet they can anticipate the actions that an unknown entity from another dimension will have on their game such that those actions lead to a victory condition? Your Titans are idiot savants, then?

What happens when you have Read Only permission? Can you delete the file?

Um, yes, actually, you can delete the file. You just can't change it. Also, you can revoke Read Only permission later if you find out you do want to change it.

Here's the thing I don't buy: If Parson can see the possible victory conditions and exploits in the system, why can't the Titans? How are they vastly intelligent and yet not as bright as Parson is? Parson isn't a god - he's a gamer. He's not doing anything that the Titans couldn't have done if they wanted to. Every order that Parson issues could have been a divinely-inspired suggestion instead. He doesn't need to be there.

If you're willing to concede that the Titans are idiots, I'll concede that they needed Parson.

[Kreistor]

So, each Titan designed a certain aspect of the game, none of them discussed it with each other

Under the MMORPG model, they don't explain the Rules to each other. That's the point of compartmentalization.

What happens when you have Read Only permission? Can you delete the file?

Um, yes, actually, you can delete the file. You just can't change it. Also, you can revoke Read Only permission later if you find out you do want to change it.

BEEEEP!!!! Wrong answer. Can't delete it (unless you're an Administrator, which gives you a warning if you try, but permits it). Everyone can test this themselves. Create a dummy text file. Browse to it, and set the Read Only flag. (On Windows, open My Computer, surf to your Documents, right click, choose properties, check Read-only. Close properties, and try to delete. You can't.)

Here's the thing I don't buy: If Parson can see the possible victory conditions and exploits in the system, why can't the Titans?

Hindsight. Titans have to predict the flaw without seeing it in action, based on pre-implementation design. Parson sees the system after it has failed for however long it has run. Anyone can see a program's bugs once it's compiled and running, but programmers rarely can write a flawless program first time. That others can see the blatantly obvious bugs afterwards doesn't make them as smart as the programmer that wrote it and failed to predict those bugs.

How are they vastly intelligent and yet not as bright as Parson is?

Look up "idiot Savant". Being capable of amazing mental tricks doesn't make you smarter in general than someone else.

[Housellama]

Gentlemen, please

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can speak for myself. I respect the process of debate and the scientific method as much as the next guy, and I think that you two both have genuine points. However, it's getting a bit much at this point. It's been almost two full pages now of back and forth between you two, and the language is escalating dangerously. This doesn't feel like a public debate anymore. It feels to me more like a private dispute. Like I said, I won't speak for anyone else, but I would certainly appreciate it if either was toned back a bit or was taken private.

I realize you are free to do as you wish. I don't want this to be taken as an order or a flame or anything like that. It's merely a statement of opinion from a fellow forum member.

Thank you.

[MarbitChow]

BEEEEP!!!! Wrong answer. Can't delete it (unless you're an Administrator, which gives you a warning if you try, but permits it). Everyone can test this themselves. Create a dummy text file. Browse to it, and set the Read Only flag. (On Windows, open My Computer, surf to your Documents, right click, choose properties, check Read-only. Close properties, and try to delete. You can't.)

Huh. When I tried this before I posted, the file deleted just fine, at least on my machine on Windows 7. Then again, I probably have admin-level permissions, just like the Titans do. They are literally running in God mode. You can't argue that the can set the 'do not change' flag and then can't unset it. That's ridiculous.

Hindsight. Titans have to predict the flaw without seeing it in action, based on pre-implementation design. Parson sees the system after it has failed for however long it has run. Anyone can see a program's bugs once it's compiled and running, but programmers rarely can write a flawless program first time. That others can see the blatantly obvious bugs afterwards doesn't make them as smart as the programmer that wrote it and failed to predict those bugs.

So, the Titans designed it, but never asked themselves 'how do we win' until after they started running it. And yet, they can predict the outcome of introducing a single chaotic external element into the system and know that this element will allow for a final victory condition. But they can't know exactly how Parson is going to win, because if they did, they could just inspire different units to perform the exact same actions without Parson prompting them to. Oh, and they can't destroy the system they created, because they took that power from themselves and they can't give it back.

It's all so clear to me now.

Look up "idiot Savant". Being capable of amazing mental tricks doesn't make you smarter in general than someone else.

So, you're conceding that they're idiots?

It's been almost two full pages now of back and forth between you two, and the language is escalating dangerously. This doesn't feel like a public debate anymore.

Don't worry, Llama. There's no danger of escalation. I had honestly assumed almost everyone else on the forum stopped reading after about Kriestor's 2nd paragraph in the original post. Kreistor clearly enjoys obsessively responding point-by-point to lots of issues on the forum, and since this is his baby, he's doubly compelled.

Rob has already spelled out as a Word of God that Erfworld is not a game. Period. Full Stop. Kriestor isn't a Tool, so he probably hasn't heard the audio clip, but it almost doesn't seem fair actually invoking the direct recorded quote of the author just to win this argument. So, Kreistor and I are just having fun, and we'll continue to have fun. I'll taunt him, he'll taunt me, we'll both take it in good fun, and the rest of the forum will (quite sensibly) continue to ignore this thread.

[Kreistor]

No, Llama's right. You're trying to provoke escalation. I've known that since you failed to quit when advertised... so has everyone else. No one is buying that you're debating me anymore: the only one fantasizing that he has fooled anyone into thinking that is you. Your diatribes about assumptions destroyed that illusion, since it ignored my position on that in Post 1. You're not fooling anyone: you've been trying to push my buttons. And your failure to find any has made you pretend to be stupider and stupider. (C'mon, it's obvious I was calling Parson the Idiot Savant. You didn't fool anyone, or improve the conversation in any way switching it to the Titans. That was an attempt to provoke me into frustration by implying my communication skills are inadequate to convey an implication. That Titan response only makes you look dense.)

Anyway, you have failed. The community is asking you to stop. They have asked you to stop bugging me in three threads now. This is my thread: it serves my purpose. I'm not quitting it, in case someone comes up with something to help me refine the theory. I can say with absolute confidence that it has no holes, since all your attacks are now based on opinion, which given your nature will always be contrary to mine, regardless that they are all contradictory and destructive.

People don't remember those that destroy. Name the pilot of the Enola Gay without checking Wikipedia Now, name the designer of the Eiffel Tower, who built a structure based on the unproven assumption that steel would make a better material to build the world's tallest tower than stone. One assumption, taken to an extreme, and a risk made to build what could have collapsed and killed many workers. A construct of assumption that has stood for more than a century. If you ever go there, walk under it, to the very center and look up. It's a remarkable view of a beautiful assumption that many people miss. But you'll never build it: only point at the assumption and yell, "He can't prove it! We have to stop it because he can't prove it!" It could only be proven by building something that bg, so why not the tower? Where's your thread for debating your "malicious Titans" theory? You couldn't start it, because you're a coward. What other explanation is there? You can't risk creation, so you destroy. Explains why that theory is so dark, too, interestingly enough.

I don't know what rationalization you use to justify to yourself your actions in this thread. I don't really care. Usually it' involves some belief that I am arrogant, and in need of a lesson. Doesn't matter... it's been tried often enough that I'm entirely resistant to such "lessons" that other people are so self-centered that they'd rationalize attacks on people. I have nothing to learn from them, or you, because you can believe such falsehoods.

[MarbitChow]

Actually, I was just trying to have a good time. I genuinely enjoy a spirited discussion, and thought that you were of a similar mindset. I apologize if I've angered or upset you. I do this purely for entertainment, and I had assumed that you did the same. For example, although it's not considered polite conversation, I genuinely enjoy discussing/arguing religion and politics over beers and have found a number of people who similarly enjoy it but hold opposing views to my own. Since I can't see your face and gauge your reactions, I had thought that a discussion about metaphysics regarding the intentions of the creators of a game-like universe would be a safe topic that people wouldn't actually get worked up over. I acknowledge that my assumption appears to be completely mistaken.

I also thought that I'd taken care throughout this thread to avoid personal attacks, and only focus on the theory. If I had failed at that, I apologize.

Since you are looking for only factual challenges to your theory, I'll simply reiterate that Rob has stated flat out that Erfworld is not a game, which leads me to believe that your pillar assumption is incorrect and should be reexamined.

I'd encourage you to become a Tool so that you can listen to the audio clip and refine your theory based on his explanation.

[Kreistor]

I'd encourage you to become a Tool so that you can listen to the audio clip and refine your theory based on his explanation.

Unfortunately, not financially possible at this time.

As for the rest, then you need to learn how to recognize when you're going too far. You have me trapped. I have to defend myself here. I can't quit, because this thread was to serve a particular purpose.

But the real indicator is when I started saying, "Dealt with in Post 1." That is an indicator that the other person is frustrated with you failing to follow the argument, and isn't going to bother re-explaining the same thing multiple times. And, frankly, I think you knew it. I don't buy anything you're saying in the previous post. Not a word. When your actions match your words, I might believe you.

[motorfirebox]

Hoping you guys are done now, so I can re-advance my point in hopes that it might get noticed: it doesn't seem very likely to me that the sole, top-level creators of Erfworld are mile-high Elvis impersonators. The fact that so many elements of Erfworld are directly derived from the real world, including the appearance of the Titans themselves, clearly indicates to me that something beyond the Titans is responsible for creating the whole thing.

[Sieggy]

Yup, it's Rob!

[Sir_Dr_D]

Hoping you guys are done now, so I can re-advance my point in hopes that it might get noticed: it doesn't seem very likely to me that the sole, top-level creators of Erfworld are mile-high Elvis impersonators. The fact that so many elements of Erfworld are directly derived from the real world, including the appearance of the Titans themselves, clearly indicates to me that something beyond the Titans is responsible for creating the whole thing.

I agree with you completely. Either the Titans are legends, created by Erfworld to describe how the world was created, or the Titans themselves were created by something higher. Something about the nature of Erfworld causes stupdWord references to appear inside of it, including the Titans.

[Kreistor]

Hoping you guys are done now, so I can re-advance my point in hopes that it might get noticed: it doesn't seem very likely to me that the sole, top-level creators of Erfworld are mile-high Elvis impersonators. The fact that so many elements of Erfworld are directly derived from the real world, including the appearance of the Titans themselves, clearly indicates to me that something beyond the Titans is responsible for creating the whole thing.

If they are of demi-god status, as I proposed, then yes, something created them, be it a higher power, or a natural one. It is highly unliekly that whatever created them will ever make an appearance in the comic, since if Erfworld was somehow forbidden, it would have been ended by now. The Titans are responsible for this world, regardless of any other deities.

[drachefly]

Hoping you guys are done now, so I can re-advance my point in hopes that it might get noticed: it doesn't seem very likely to me that the sole, top-level creators of Erfworld are mile-high Elvis impersonators. The fact that so many elements of Erfworld are directly derived from the real world, including the appearance of the Titans themselves, clearly indicates to me that something beyond the Titans is responsible for creating the whole thing.

Eh, Stanley's 'safe and familiar' requirement covers that. The causality just has to be reversed and we have to be in a (at least near-) infinite multiverse.