Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby splintermute » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:17 pm

Lamech wrote:Lamech's plan for abusing Fate for fun and for profit:

So we know Goodmitton shall be destroyed, and olive branch shall be Wanda's chief caster. No way out fate will win. But preferably it will be brought about to favor Wanda and co. Seems impossible right?
Step one: Capture Branch and a capital site.
Step Two: Spin off a side make Branch chief caster and place Wanda under her. Order everyone to disregard all of Branch's orders.
Step Three: Move Wanda's former overlord out of the garrison, sell other units to Wanda's new side. BOOM! Wanda's old side has fallen and is now barbarian. (We know sides can fall and leave barbarians behind while still fulfilling a DOOM prophecy. See FAQ and Jillian for more details.)
Step Four: Sell all units back to former king, make new side called: Resistance is futile, not even fate can stop us.

Both parts of the prophecy have been made true. GG.

P.S. My theory of how fate works for the record. The future isn't set except for a few details. This would seem to be impossible, things so often have close deciding battles, and gambles, if those are not set how would we know the outcome? Answer: fate makes it happen. (And from Wanda's birth and the "cost to be paid" part I suspect it works like Luckamancy, to some degree stealing the high numbers it needs) So fate will somehow, someway make it so Goodmitton falls. If Goodmitton's plan includes all the dictates of fate, fate won't care who wins and now Goodmitton can win. Indeed since Wanda has unfulfilled predictions on her she can effectively ignore any attack that can't capture but only croak. (Fire, arrows, ect.)

Step 3 might not work - we don't know if Jillian became a barbarian when Faq fell, or when Banhammer died. Wanda's dad might need to die.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Kreistor » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:11 pm

Stanley left GK to fall while he went to set up a new side in FAQ. Yes, Step 3 works, but I think he needs to be out of the City to become Barbarian. Inside City, while outside Garrison, probably turns the Overlord Neutral.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Aquillion » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:51 pm

build6 wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:Actually, for all we know, everyone from Goodminton is still alive and doing well. All we really know is that Wanda doesn't stay with them. Still, their doom seems pretty likely, especially considering how Wanda speaks on this page.


something turned Wanda from a cutesy-ish, innocent-ish, "I love my brother!" nice girl into Ms. Nothing-Gets-In-The-Way-Of-The-Pliers (not to mention all that S&M business, which, I'm gonna take a chance and say it's Not Exactly Normal. Unless I'm wrong and I'm the only one around who doesn't have any whips and leather gear in my basement (or should I say dungeon?)... *look at all of you suspiciously*).

beloved big brother getting killed because of something she did sounds like it could do it.

It's not "normal", perhaps, but it's natural -- that is, there doesn't have to be a reason for someone to find S&M kinky and arousing; many people do in the real world for no particular reason beyond the way they're wired. And Wanda is already pretty abnormal as a croakamancer -- most people would find lying next to a dead body a lot creepier.

The way her view on Fate changed, on the other hand, is a much bigger deal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Aquillion » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:54 pm

Kreistor wrote:Kiloton a trap? Maybe. Plankton could have been a trap, too. A good General would have made both traps, and ensured that the only correct decision was not to fight at all.

Not a lot of rules stuff here, except the suggestion that Casters can be spies.

And, more specifically, the fact that they can hide their specialization.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:59 am

Megaduck wrote:So, their attacking a major enemy production point. The tide of this war really seems to have changed considering that Goodmiton was on the ropes a little while ago.

I do wonder if Olive Branch knows anything about Turnamancy though. Wanda got her skills for Torture and Interrogation from somewhere after all.


It is not clear that Wanda is good at torture. We only know that she likes doing it.

Wanda is also a generalist. She is capable in most fields but prefers croakamancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby mortissimus » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:01 am

build6 wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:Actually, for all we know, everyone from Goodminton is still alive and doing well. All we really know is that Wanda doesn't stay with them. Still, their doom seems pretty likely, especially considering how Wanda speaks on this page.


something turned Wanda from a cutesy-ish, innocent-ish, "I love my brother!" nice girl into Ms. Nothing-Gets-In-The-Way-Of-The-Pliers (not to mention all that S&M business, which, I'm gonna take a chance and say it's Not Exactly Normal. Unless I'm wrong and I'm the only one around who doesn't have any whips and leather gear in my basement (or should I say dungeon?)... *look at all of you suspiciously*).

beloved big brother getting killed because of something she did sounds like it could do it.

:-(


Wanda is from the <i>lost</i> Croatan tribe. It does imply a rather nasty end to her relatives.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:24 am

Kreistor wrote:
Raza wrote:An interest in BDSM isn't generally the result of some psychological trauma, if that's what you're getting at. It's not exactly normal, but 'normal' and 'healthy' are two very different things.


Wanda does not do BDSM. She does torture to Turn and extract information. There is no Safety Word.


Wanda uses magic to extract information. Wanda was reading Jillian's mind. The safety words are part of healthy BDSM because they allow the sadist and/or dominant to know that (s)he still has consent. Wanda knew Jillian enjoyed it. If it were possible to magically read someone's mind it would be much more reliable than safety words.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:10 am

mortissimus wrote:Wanda is from the <i>lost</i> Croatan tribe. It does imply a rather nasty end to her relatives.



This is indeed what I think. Wanda is level 3 here and still somewhat inexperienced. She's master class (level 10?) by the start of book 1. FAQ didn't fight so it's unlikely Wanda gained any levels there. That leaves a lot of rebelling against fate between this story and the start of book 1.

My guess is Goodminton gets wiped out, and Wanda escapes into the Magic Kingdom. I think Wanda will continue to fight her fate for a while. She won't go straight to Haffaton. So she's going to lose friends and acquaintances for a some time before anything fated happens. I dunno if Haffaton falls or not; they might. Olive Branch will be her chief caster, but it doesn't have to be at Haffaton. Haffaton might fall, and Olive Branch might go to another side. She might even go to Faq.

At some point, Wanda is going to give up. She'll go to the Predictamancers and ask "What do I do to end my suffering?" And they'll tell her, and she'll do it. Probably that's when Wanda goes to Faq, though there could be other tasks for her first.

As to how Fate works: it's Rob. ;-)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby raphfrk » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:47 am

gameboy1234 wrote: Olive Branch will be her chief caster, but it doesn't have to be at Haffaton. Haffaton might fall, and Olive Branch might go to another side. She might even go to Faq.


This is what I think. Faq does a hit and run, after Haffaton and Goodmington have critically weakened each other and takes all the surviving casters. They then retreat back behind Jack's veil.

Stanley went on a mission and returned with Wanda and Jack. Jillian might have done something similar, and could return with Wanda and Olive. Since it was in support of Fate, she would get a big boost to luck (in much the same way that Stanley found lots of dwagons on the way to Faq), Jillian might arrive at exactly the right moment.

It isn't clear that Faq would even need to do much fighting. If Olive and Wanda were both in the same (or near) hexes somehow (say Olive captures Wanda, or vice versa), then Jillian could just hit one hex and capture 2 casters and then vanish.

Btw, I have always wondered about Faq's early history. Before they had Jack and the predictamancer, it is less likely that they could have remained hidden. I guess if Jack was the first caster they popped, it might work. Banhammer might have just found and claimed the Faq site and then popped Jack within 10-20 turns. At which point, he could order jack to veil the city. However, Jack wouldn't be master class at that point, so he couldn't have veiled an entire city (maybe if it was a level 1 and small somehow, he might be able).

Another possibility is that Faq basically wipes out all of its neighbours, so that there is no side which knows of its existence and then retreats to 3 easy to hide cities and switches to the bubble kingdom strategy. Sides like Transylvito would have arrived later and claimed the empty city sites, assuming that the sides in the area went MAD somehow. Deserted cities could happen naturally, if a Ruler committed suicide or died due to an accident (say killed in combat without having set an heir). Even if distant sides knew of Faq's existence, they would still just assume that it was among the dead sides, since city banners go blank when the side ends.

This would be consistent with the book's title. Faq achieved Inner Peace, through superior firepower.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby CunningChuck » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:49 pm

build6 wrote:beloved big brother getting killed because of something she did sounds like it could do it.

And Wanda said to Delphie in text update 10:
"I'll want you shoring up the air defenses on the tower," said Wanda as she descended the stairs behind Delphie."And Clay making scrolls. Every turn, until I change that order, or Father does."

And here is what is said in text update 11:
The only real worry was archery, or perhaps another caster, but for that sort of protection they could rely on Clay back home. Probably.

Nice set-up. First battle Tommy will fight without any luck...
And yes, it does seams like a trap!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby chefsotero » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:59 pm

raphfrk wrote:Btw, I have always wondered about Faq's early history. Before they had Jack and the predictamancer, it is less likely that they could have remained hidden. I guess if Jack was the first caster they popped, it might work. Banhammer might have just found and claimed the Faq site and then popped Jack within 10-20 turns. At which point, he could order jack to veil the city. However, Jack wouldn't be master class at that point, so he couldn't have veiled an entire city (maybe if it was a level 1 and small somehow, he might be able).

Another possibility is that Faq basically wipes out all of its neighbours, so that there is no side which knows of its existence and then retreats to 3 easy to hide cities and switches to the bubble kingdom strategy. Sides like Transylvito would have arrived later and claimed the empty city sites, assuming that the sides in the area went MAD somehow. Deserted cities could happen naturally, if a Ruler committed suicide or died due to an accident (say killed in combat without having set an heir). Even if distant sides knew of Faq's existence, they would still just assume that it was among the dead sides, since city banners go blank when the side ends.


Thats interesting, but another thing to consider is: When a side fall, all it's cities goes neutral and everybody inside "freezes" but do they reset their memories? A unit that knew about faq if captured in a neutral city would be able to reveal their secret.

If so you would have to raze every city not just let then go neutral
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby CunningChuck » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:19 pm

Lamech wrote:If Goodmitton's plan includes all the dictates of fate, fate won't care who wins and now Goodmitton can win. Indeed since Wanda has unfulfilled predictions on her she can effectively ignore any attack that can't capture but only croak. (Fire, arrows, ect.)

I think you are right.
Look at how Lady Sylvia got fate on her side in text update 51.
Artemis can't get a shot!
And there is a hint about Fate in the next text update, 52 :
She grinned, as much to share the joke with Fate as to greet her opposite.

Anyone remember any prediction about Lady Sylvia?
Anything, except her own prediction in text update 29?
"This city will yet burn."

:D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:40 pm

chefsotero wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Btw, I have always wondered about Faq's early history. Before they had Jack and the predictamancer, it is less likely that they could have remained hidden... Banhammer might have just found and claimed the Faq site and then popped Jack

Sides like Transylvito would have arrived later and claimed the empty city sites, assuming that the sides in the area went MAD somehow. Deserted cities could happen naturally, if a Ruler committed suicide or died due to an accident (say killed in combat without having set an heir).


Thats interesting, but another thing to consider is: When a side fall, all it's cities goes neutral and everybody inside "freezes" but do they reset their memories? A unit that knew about faq if captured in a neutral city would be able to reveal their secret.

If so you would have to raze every city not just let then go neutral


It also begs the question of where do sides come from. Do new sides arise after old ones are wiped out? Or is the original number of sides fixed and eventually they'll all be wiped out except for one winner?

What about barbarians, can they capture a city and become a side? Are "tribes" the same way? Would it be possible for a barbarian tribe to just pop a capital city if it had the resources to do so? How about Royalty, can new lineages of royals arise also? How does that happen, do certain new cities have a chance to pop their first warlord or heir as a royal?

All sorts of weird questions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Silvan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:18 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
chefsotero wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Btw, I have always wondered about Faq's early history. Before they had Jack and the predictamancer, it is less likely that they could have remained hidden... Banhammer might have just found and claimed the Faq site and then popped Jack

Sides like Transylvito would have arrived later and claimed the empty city sites, assuming that the sides in the area went MAD somehow. Deserted cities could happen naturally, if a Ruler committed suicide or died due to an accident (say killed in combat without having set an heir).


Thats interesting, but another thing to consider is: When a side fall, all it's cities goes neutral and everybody inside "freezes" but do they reset their memories? A unit that knew about faq if captured in a neutral city would be able to reveal their secret.

If so you would have to raze every city not just let then go neutral


It also begs the question of where do sides come from. Do new sides arise after old ones are wiped out? Or is the original number of sides fixed and eventually they'll all be wiped out except for one winner?

What about barbarians, can they capture a city and become a side? Are "tribes" the same way? Would it be possible for a barbarian tribe to just pop a capital city if it had the resources to do so? How about Royalty, can new lineages of royals arise also? How does that happen, do certain new cities have a chance to pop their first warlord or heir as a royal?

All sorts of weird questions.


Well we know that royal sides sometimes split into different sides so that might help boost the number of sides. See Ossomer's threat to Haggar
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Raza » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:16 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Raza wrote:An interest in BDSM isn't generally the result of some psychological trauma, if that's what you're getting at. It's not exactly normal, but 'normal' and 'healthy' are two very different things.


Wanda does not do BDSM. She does torture to Turn and extract information. There is no Safety Word.

Safety words are not a requisite for bondage, dominance and sado-masochism, out of which she does at least three, and has a known partner who brings the fourth. They're just a current - and in my practised opinion mostly symbolic - custom designed to sanitize the practice for greater public acceptance.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Kreistor » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:51 pm

So? Does that make it not torture?

I'm not interested in YOUR sexual history. I am interested in Wanda's character. Wanda is a practiced torturer, and while she may have certain involvements with Jillian, those will not exist with other victims. Wanda has no issue using magic (Thinkamancy Suggestion) to attempt to ensure she has more control over those she "loves" than what is normal in a relationship, Wanda is vicious and cruel to her enemies. She casually orders the murder and enslavement of Ossomer and many others. This isn't a sexual tendency for her... casual viciousness is a part of her very being.

Wanda is a serial murderer, and may be a sociopath. At the very least, she is a religious cultist bent on converting the world to her own belief system using war and a brutal form of brainwashing. She's not confused about it: she long ago embraced her own cruelty, narcissism, and selfishness.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:55 pm

I think it's cause she sees herself as a tool of the titans, fate, or whatever. I think she thinks she is pursuing destiny and not her own path.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby multilis » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:37 am

Kreistor wrote:...Wanda has no issue using magic (Thinkamancy Suggestion) to attempt to ensure she has more control over those she "loves" than what is normal in a relationship, Wanda is vicious and cruel to her enemies. She casually orders the murder and enslavement of Ossomer and many others. This isn't a sexual tendency for her... casual viciousness is a part of her very being.

Wanda is a serial murderer, and may be a sociopath. At the very least, she is a religious cultist bent on converting the world to her own belief system using war and a brutal form of brainwashing. She's not confused about it: she long ago embraced her own cruelty, narcissism, and selfishness.


Wanda lives in a world where when one side captures another sides cities, usually almost everyone is killed, except for valuable casters who thinkomancy spells are put on to make them loyal to new side. What you describe is the nature of survival played by almost everyone in that world.

For some vaguely described reason it appears that almost all sides *have* to wage bloody war in order to survive. (Not clear why they can't all simply disband what they can't support and stay at peace with each other...)

Ossomer being killed *and* then enslaved... not exactly the same thing as we would call killed, as you don't get rezzed right after... what she did was basically high level turnomancy+thinkomancy loyalty... Turning and 'enslaving' a unit so you don't have to kill it might by some moral perspectives seem better than just killing enemy in a war.

Yes Wanda enjoys her torture and mind control in a way that makes her seem evil.

...

So far the strongest example of a "good" side may be the one Wanda starts out with. We only get a hint of evil streak so far in prequel in Wanda enjoying being a predator.

Her side doesn't like backstabbing even when dealing with likely backstabbers, doesn't have arrogance and prejudice of Jetstone, only a smaller prejudice in favour of warlords compared to casters... and even then "father" is able to "professionally disagree", not put too much weight in his own opinions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Kreistor » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:01 am

multilis wrote:Wanda lives in a world where when one side captures another sides cities, usually almost everyone is killed, except for valuable casters who thinkomancy spells are put on to make them loyal to new side. What you describe is the nature of survival played by almost everyone in that world.


The concept of honor, and Rules of War, still exist here. Parson violated Parley, a Rule of War, for instance. There is a spectrum. Not every Side is like Wanda, so we can judge her evil as a relative. Doing things not for survival reasons (ie. Parson killing Ansom was for survival, but killing Ossomer was just for saving time) is evidence of character.

For some vaguely described reason it appears that almost all sides *have* to wage bloody war in order to survive. (Not clear why they can't all simply disband what they can't support and stay at peace with each other...)


War, but not necessarily "bloody" (which I am interpreting as vicious, since we seem to have an actual blood filter on injuries).

Ossomer being killed *and* then enslaved... not exactly the same thing as we would call killed, as you don't get rezzed right after... what she did was basically high level turnomancy+thinkomancy loyalty... Turning and 'enslaving' a unit so you don't have to kill it might by some moral perspectives seem better than just killing enemy in a war.


Ossomer's information was not required. They could fight the battle without it. Parson suggested scouts. Wanda chose murder. That was Wanda's choice, and evidence of character.

Yes Wanda enjoys her torture and mind control in a way that makes her seem evil.


Okie doke.

So far the strongest example of a "good" side may be the one Wanda starts out with. We only get a hint of evil streak so far in prequel in Wanda enjoying being a predator.


Banhammer's FAQ. Did not fight its neighbours, and only sent out mercenaries when absolutely necessary for subsistence. Goodminton had the option of trading Wanda for peace and passed in favour of attack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 011

Postby Rcam » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:56 am

Interesting that Casters can't see others' disciplines, but Parson can. Book 1 Page 108
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