Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 014

[cloudbreaker]

Wanda should haver her Fellows use their lascivious crotch-gropes to corral all the Haffaton forces out of the garrison. After all, croaking enemy units is not one of the requirements for taking a city. There just can't be any enemy units in the garrison. Goodminton could win the city without ever fighting.

[Lamech]

A few of them have curled up in a corner just in case. She should probably have them start smashing stuff though.

[Kreistor]

We'll have to stop right here and establish how much of Earth moral thinking are we allowed to import, otherwise the argument won't go too far either way.

Simple. We use their morality.

Florists want peace and view war as evil; ergo, war is evil. this is backed up by Trammenis' postulation.

No path has been demonstrated as leading to Peace, except total conquest.

Ergo, war, while still evil, cannot stop until a Victor is decided.

War will continue endlessly unless Peace is declared.

Ergo, failure to try to achieve Victory when a chance presents itself is a choice to continue permanent War.

Therefore, any attempt to end the War through total Victory is the lesser of all evils, because only Victory can end the War. Failure to take such an opportunity means you are choosing to prolong the War and you are no more moral than anyone else.

Basically, you're viewing not trying and maintaining the status quo of eternal war as superior to trying to end the permanent war. I don't think that flies at all, personally. The result of failure is only more of the same permanent war.

[Mrtyuh]

Her boots clumped softly on a checkerboard of black and white marble....

Olive is certainly adroit at chess, moving her pieces around the board.

The last few hopefuls who had followed her up the stairs were dissuaded by a line of uncroaked warriors, each holding their hands palms-up and wiggling their fingers obscenely.

I have a bad feeling about this. Given the high probability that Wanda will be serving Haffaton, this could lead to an ugly outcome for her. She will be subject to the orders of Haffaton's warlords, including Larry. He may not take kindly to her rejecting his earlier advances and may decide for some payback later. I don't really like thinking of the implications, so I'm going to drop this, but I can see this getting very ugly.

This city was more impressive than the City of Goodminton, and it wasn't even their capital! Olive admitted there were not one but two level fives on her side.

Kiloton isn't even a level 5; it's a level 4, but it is Haffaton's second largest production center, so production isn't directly tied to level. Also, Haffaton has at least 9 cities total. Haffaton seems to be a side on the scale of Gobwin Knob or Jetstone. They're almost certainly a regional power in this part of Erfworld.

Why was she off somewhere now with Tommy?

We're getting consistent characterization: irrational, jealous Wanda.

"It's brilliant, right? She falls in love with me, and then I ask her to turn. And then she does! And then Father makes her Chief Caster, and Delphie's Prediction can come true, right? And, Titans, I'll have a...a girlfriend!"

Oh, Atomic, you are a Titans disbanded idiot. If anyone's going to get seduced and turned, my money says it won't be Olive. Appearantly Tommy has the brains of an average male teenager; I had thought more highly of him. I must hand it to Olive, though. Wanda seems to have a small crush on Tommy, and she obviously has a huge crush on Olive. By going after Tommy and mostly ignoring Wanda, Olive is effectively souring their relationship. The food may not be poisoned, but Olive's actions certainly are.

Also, I'm surprised the concept of girlfriend exists in ErfWorld. We know units are capable of love and some form long-term relationships, but I find the existence of formalized terms surprising. There is no procreation, so that removes the need for bonded couples. Given the regularity and acceptance of commanders ordering subordinates to service them, it seems to me that relationships based on relative equality would be the minority and render such relationships alien. On the other hand, Jillian did refer to Dora as Sir Webinar's girlfriend, but it seemed to me she was using the term as an insult, and I didn't give it much thought at the time. Still, the idea of girlfriends just doesn't feel like it fits, to me, although it seems I'm obviously wrong about that.

From the expression on her brother's face, he was utterly convinced he had just hatched the most cunning scheme since the Titans imagined the world. And the truly galling thing about it was that, as rock-stupid as it was, it was exactly one more plan than she could think of.

This is one of those times where I almost feel Rob is talking to the forums. I read people posting similar theories here, about Goodminton capturing Olive and making her Chief Florist, to fulfill the prophesy. I basically felt like Wanda, i.e. I didn't think it would work, however, I couldn't say anything because I couldn't come up with anything better that didn't result in Wanda going to Haffaton.

Oh yeah. Wanda's getting played HARD. Olive's even using her brother to get her. Seducing him in the process just makes it an especially efficient method. She may be a Hippymancer, but that doesn't make her any less ruthless. She's working to get what she wants on as many levels as she can.

Wanda was right. Olive is using peace as effectively as any weapon. She's certainly booping up Wanda's world

Or what Housellama said.

For some reason I have a feeling that Tommy won't be the Firebaugh sibling who ends up doing the seducing...

I don't think either Firebaugh sibling will be doing any seducing. In fact, I think at this point they've both been pretty thoroughly seduced.

Or, once again, what Housellama said.

Wanda. Sleep (euphemisticaly) with Olive, then cut her throat in the morning.

I have a feeling that if anyone is going to exploit this, it will be Haffaton. Here are somethings we know. Haffaton's turn is first. Olive's spell will last until the end of Haffaton's next turn. We know that cleansing and healing happen at the start of a side's turn. So, at dawn, Haffaton's turn will start, and all their units will be cured of the intoxicating effects of the previous night's activities. They can then stack up and get into formations, while Goodminton's units are still inebriated. Haffaton can then immediately end turn. While Goodminton's units would then become sober, they would be scattered across the Garrison, unstacked. Olive's spell would end, allowing Haffaton to slaughter Goodminton's forces piecemeal. They can simply just take Wanda, then. I'm not saying this is what is going to happen, but I think Goodminton is in a much more precarious situation here then they realize.

"the last side of the once-powerful Croatan Tribe"

So, a tribe consists of several sides? That suggests that it could be the "family" of sides created when one splits off from another.

That basically the impression I get. I think I remember talking about how barbarian warlords can pop in the field and start new sides. I think it had something to do with the ruins we saw early in Book 1. He also said they were more common than barbarian royal heirs, so it wouldn't be obvious to Ansom that Jillian was a royal. Anyway, I assume the newly popped barbarian would be their own tribe. Any units they produced would be the same tribe. One of those units may go off to found a new side, but it would be the same tribe. The units of Jetstone are of the Jetstone tribe, so that city may be where the first Jetstone popped. Sizemore and Stanely are both members of the Plaid tribe, which was discribed as nearly lost when they were reduced to one city. A tribe being lost may not mean there is only one or a few units left, though. It may simply mean they control no cities and are incable of producing new units. Of course, this is all speculation.

I also wonder when does she come to FAQ? They haven't been mentioned yet al all.

We may not see Faq for a long time. We know Jillian is over 700 turns old. We have reason to believe Wanda will be serving under Olive Branch for a long time, either at Haffaton or elsewhere. We don't know how old Wanda is. It may be thousands of turns before Wanda ends up at Faq. She may serve dozens of sides between now and then. Basically, we know the beginning and the end, but we have no way of knowing how big of a gap is between the two.

I don't think there can be any doubt that Delphia told Olive that Wanda would attune to an Arkentool. It is the only explanation for why they would be so strongly seeking Wanda herself. Even as a Master Croakamancer, she isn't that important.

That's certainly possible, but I hope not, for various reasons. For one thing, I don't really like it when everything get tied up in a nice, neat bow. Also, as much as I may dislike Delphie, her sharing something like that with an enemy caster just seems too treasonous, for lack of a better word. While we know that casters and other units can and sometimes do engage conspiracies and what not, I'd hate to think all of them are. What I mean is, the accepted belief, in Erfworld, seems to be that Duty and Loyalty will make units act in the best interests of their Rulers. If this is what is accepted, it either means it is the norm or Rulers are completely in the dark. If it is the norm, I don't want to see too many exceptions. The example that comes to my mind comes from D&D: the drow. It often seems like there are so many good, rebel drow running around, it completely undercuts and ruins the concept. It becomes trite and cliche. While this is my personal preference, I hope Rob is a better storyteller than that.

Also, Delphie is a level 4, Adept-class Predictamancer. That is actually pretty weak. While we don't know how Predictamancy works, such a Prediction may be beyond her. We know that Marie Predicted that Sizemore would return to the Magic Kingdom, but she failed to Predict that Parson would come. After Parson was ambushed by Jojo, Marie wondered how Jojo knew he'd be coming, saying "that's hard Predictamancy," which indicates, she thinks someone else may have succeeded where she failed. Of course, it is possible that nobody Predicted it. Perhaps Charlie intercepted a Thinkagram or decoded Maggie's message or something. Anyway, it feels, to me, that such a Prediction would be beyond Delphie. While she knows that Wanda will be significant and has a Destiny, she may not know that Wanda will Attune.

Of course, that is the most obvious and likely scenario, but I'm hoping I'll be surprised.

Simple. We use their morality.

Florists want peace and view war as evil; ergo, war is evil. this is backed up by Trammenis' postulation.

No path has been demonstrated as leading to Peace, except total conquest.

Ergo, war, while still evil, cannot stop until a Victor is decided.

War will continue endlessly unless Peace is declared.

Ergo, failure to try to achieve Victory when a chance presents itself is a choice to continue permanent War.

Therefore, any attempt to end the War through total Victory is the lesser of all evils, because only Victory can end the War. Failure to take such an opportunity means you are choosing to prolong the War and you are no more moral than anyone else.

Basically, you're viewing not trying and maintaining the status quo of eternal war as superior to trying to end the permanent war. I don't think that flies at all, personally. The result of failure is only more of the same permanent war.

A belief that a group is shady and manipulative does not equate to a belief that a group is malicious. One thing I like about ErfWorld is that there are not any cliched villains. Everyone thinks they are doing what is best, but they don't agree on what is best, just like in reality.

There is another option. Ansom's stated goal, at Expository Bridge, was to either convert or ally with all sides in the world. So, alliances, or at least non-aggression pacts, would also result in peace. As you said, the Predictamancers are just one conspiracy among many. They're convinced they are right, just like the others. It remains to be seen how that will play out.

[BLANDCorporatio]

We use their morality.

Florists want peace and view war as evil; ergo, war is evil. this is backed up by Trammenis' postulation.

Are taxes evil? Whatever the rhethoric on both sides, we should all agree that the issue is primarily economic/political, not moral. And it's not a sufficient foundation to say that stuff is evil because Florists say so. Why do they get to name things?

But that's beginning to confuse the issue. "We" as a whole appear to be sympathetic to the Hippiemancer agenda (no war) because our Earth morality says that is ok. This may be the wrong reason for "us", by which I mean Joe Average Forumite, to think so, but that's the reason.

Why Joe Average Forumite, the one you addressed your original question about ("Why do people dislike Predictamancers?") feels Predictamancers are insufferable gits is because of the ways in which they want to approach peace. Which ways are not deemed bad because they involve war, they are deemed bad because they involve the Predictamancers attempting to substitute themselves for the decision ability of everyone.

So this bit

No path has been demonstrated as leading to Peace, except total conquest.

Ergo, war, while still evil, cannot stop until a Victor is decided.

War will continue endlessly unless Peace is declared.

is irelevant.

Ergo, failure to try to achieve Victory when a chance presents itself is a choice to continue permanent War.

Therefore, any attempt to end the War through total Victory is the lesser of all evils, because only Victory can end the War. Failure to take such an opportunity means you are choosing to prolong the War and you are no more moral than anyone else.

This presents a false dilemma. You appear to claim, that either Predictamancers impose their will through manipulation on everyone else, or war continues indefinitely. There is at least a third option, which involves economics, (not-quite-)"self-sufficiency" hacks, and incentivizing Sides to cooperate rather than fight. It has the advantage of not shunting out choice.

Basically, you're viewing not trying and maintaining the status quo of eternal war as superior to trying to end the permanent war. I don't think that flies at all, personally. The result of failure is only more of the same permanent war.

I assume you mean "you" as "you Joe Average Forumite, whose hate of Predictamancers I've asked about". No, I don't think that's a fair summary of the average Joe position. I claim that a fairer one is that you are presenting a false dilemma, that world peace is a desirable outcome, that there are ways to get there that do not involve disrespecting what little agency exists in Erfworld.

But Mrtyuh already made the above points, and more concisely, in their own post.

A belief that a group is shady and manipulative does not equate to a belief that a group is malicious.

is a good summary of the response to your original question.

[drachefly]

Kiloton isn't even a level 5; it's a level 4, but it is Haffaton's second largest production center, so production isn't directly tied to level. Also, Haffaton has at least 9 cities total. Haffaton seems to be a side on the scale of Gobwin Knob or Jetstone. They're almost certainly a regional power in this part of Erfworld.

Could be that their capitol is a 5 and they have it mainly producing royals, which pop slowly. That would make it not a major production center.

[Whispri]

Maybe the prophecy just means that Wanda will be "serving" "under" Olive

You know... whatever feelings or desires on the matter the two may have, this may be the closest they're ever going to get to each other. If the part about their Fates being entwined wasn't just a lie, the entwinement may simply be a result of the flower girl's attempts to acquire Wanda dominating their destinies. After all, the Fates of Stanley and Ansom were entwined for a while there wouldn't you say?

So Haffaton is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get Wanda, even to the point of basically saying "We will never attack your (pathetically weak) side again." (there's enough people willing to end your side that we don't need to)

Just how valuable does that make Wanda? Presumably Croakamancers are rare, but are they rare enough, and bah-ro-ken enough to constitute a side unto themselves?

Maybe they know something about her Fate, or think they do. It could be that the flower girl wants a pretty Caster at her side that badly. It could be they are in dire trouble on another front and are bluffing with no cards. Or it could be they have a Tri-Caster link in mind she'd be a good fit for.

As for the power of Croakamancy, it doesn't seem to be worth that much to be honest. Croakamancy looks powerful because Wanda has to be in the field to use it, but any Caster in the field is powerful. And unlike those other brands of magic, knife work has to be done before it can be used. Unless Wanda is mighty enough to walk into a City alone and take it... I'll say this for Croakamancy though, it appears to outstrip the Arkenpliers in terms of piling bonus on bonus thanks to the dance-fighting at higher levels of ability.

[drachefly]

Croakamancers also get the bonus leading decrypted.

[Kreistor]

We use their morality.

Florists want peace and view war as evil; ergo, war is evil. this is backed up by Trammenis' postulation.

Are taxes evil? Whatever the rhethoric on both sides, we should all agree that the issue is primarily economic/political, not moral. And it's not a sufficient foundation to say that stuff is evil because Florists say so. Why do they get to name things?

It doesn't matter. The Florist is not interested in your interpretation of morality, only her own. No one makes decisions based on someone else's morality, so to the Florist ONLY the Florist's morality is important. So when analyzing the Florist's motivations, we consider the Florist's morality.

If there were an overseeing power, like our own government, that limits certain moralities, then you could reject that if it conflicted, but there is not, so it does not conflict.

[atalex]

One thing I have not seen discussed yet: What do folks think about the fact that Flower Power, the magic of hippie peacniks, apparently renders individuals incapable of resisting sexual assault?!? But for the fact that Wanda is a croakamancer and thus able to retaliate by sending uncroaked to threaten her would-be suitors with rape, Wanda would apparently have been the victim of, at the very least, a lot of undesired groping and probably a lot worse. Flower Power definitely has the potential to be a lot darker than we'd thought.

[BLANDCorporatio]

The Florist is not interested in your interpretation of morality, only her own. No one makes decisions based on someone else's morality, so to the Florist ONLY the Florist's morality is important. So when analyzing the Florist's motivations, we consider the Florist's morality.

If that were true, then at least half of the discussion is trivial. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil (as you yourself pointed out somewhere in a recent thread). If we judge the Predictamancers (about which the original question was, I think) by what they deem good, and they deem as good whatever they want and do, then trivially what they want and do is good. And that would render the story as morally uninteresting, as well as involving a rather arbitrary standard of ethics.

I said "at least half of the discussion would be rendered trivial", because there are two issues here. One is the goal of Predictamancers (which, for whatever reasons, everyone agrees is noble) and two is the methods of Predictamancers. And that issue two is what the problem is that people have with Predictamancers. I suppose you can say that the methods are good simply because the Predictamancers think so, but that is begging the question.

[BLANDCorporatio]

One thing I have not seen discussed yet: What do folks think about the fact that Flower Power, the magic of hippie peacniks, apparently renders individuals incapable of resisting sexual assault?!?

Ouch. Good point that.

Indeed, interesting how supposedly nice and cuddly mechanics have dark undersides and unintended(?) consequences.

[multilis]

unintended(?) consequences.

Brave new world (book) - rejecting a sexual advance among 12 year olds in school means the person rejecting is defective and needs treatment. Everybody should be happy and accept hippie love. We have already seen how rape idea does not really apply to average archons when Parson talked to them... so used to serving whatever anybody wants, never caring what they want.

[Kreistor]

The Florist is not interested in your interpretation of morality, only her own. No one makes decisions based on someone else's morality, so to the Florist ONLY the Florist's morality is important. So when analyzing the Florist's motivations, we consider the Florist's morality.

If that were true, then at least half of the discussion is trivial. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil (as you yourself pointed out somewhere in a recent thread). If we judge the Predictamancers (about which the original question was, I think) by what they deem good, and they deem as good whatever they want and do, then trivially what they want and do is good. And that would render the story as morally uninteresting, as well as involving a rather arbitrary standard of ethics.

I said "at least half of the discussion would be rendered trivial", because there are two issues here. One is the goal of Predictamancers (which, for whatever reasons, everyone agrees is noble) and two is the methods of Predictamancers. And that issue two is what the problem is that people have with Predictamancers. I suppose you can say that the methods are good simply because the Predictamancers think so, but that is begging the question.

The Predictamancers are a different story. They seem to try to enact their Predictions, but often seem to fail to foresee the unintended consequences of their actions. Ignoring the damage you do in order to reach a goal is "teh Ends justifying the means", and no one considers that good.

The difference here is that the Florists don't have any other means to achieve their goal. I have said before that if there is only one way to achieve a good goal, then that way is inherently not evil.

Delphie lied and cheated to try to get to her more desirable conclusion -- Goodminton safe for as long as possible. The problem was, in getting there, someone was going to be essentially enslaved (Wanda to Haffaton). She was also having to lie and take the power of decision away from the leader of her Side. The goal, while noble, permitted what a higher authority (her Ruler) decided was evil. By the standards of the Predictamancers, she may have been moral, but she was also to be judged by her Ruler, and his sense of morality also applies.

Delphie had a choice: she could tell her Ruler the prophecies, explain why Wanda being popped would give Goodminton the time to rebuild, and let him decide the course of the Side. Even if that did not achieve her Predictions, because he said, "No, I won't do that," it's not evil. She has done her part. Her attempt to achieve a noble goal failed, but failure to achieve a goal using a moral method that avoids your own unintended consequences is not evil. When someone else has the responsibility for making that decision, and you've done all you can to prevent the wrong decision ethically, that they make the wrong decision is not your responsibility and not your evil.

And, ultimately, I'm not certain their conviction that some Prophecies, if told, will prevent themselves from coming true is accurate. I suspect that this is really just the Predictamancers being jealous of their own power. If what they say is reasonable, then reasonable people will take it seriously, no matter how much it hurts. That selfishness and conviction of personal superiority interferes with the capacity of people in authority to make their judgements with all available information, and that interference brings other peoples' morality into it.

But a barbarian caster in the MK has no authority overseeing them. Information is a commodity, and like a Dirtamancer's golems, should not be expected to be given freely. A Dirtamancer might be able to save a Side by giving away his golems, but no one will vilify him when he isn't that benevolent. We equally cannot vilify a Predictamancer for not giving away Predictions. A Dirtamancer may give a golem to a potential client to demonstrate its effectiveness to sell more, or to be hired permanently. The same goes for a Predictamancer.

But I see people vilifying Marie for manipulating her Side. We don't know that she didn't give them every Prediction she made. That is often a problem with Prophecy: it is often incomplete. People see the incompleteness and want her to have held something back. Maybe she did, but maybe she is just as in the dark as Delphie.

Waht we do know is that Wanda does not vilify Marie by stating she told her that she would gain the Hammer, instead of the Pliers. Wanda chose to try to get the Hammer on her own.

We know Marie predicted her Side's fall, and Banhammer popped Jillian in response. Now we can see that was the right decision, because Jillian has restored FAQ, in a way. Did Marie also tell Banhammer that for FAQ to be restored, he must die in betrayal? We don't know, because Jillian doesn't know everything that Banhammer was told.

I just do not see the manipulations peopel accuse Marie of, when we copare her to Delphie. I can't see a single untold Prediction, or a hint of telling anyone the best way to achieve the Prediction's goal. Marie and Delphie are two entirely different creatures, and to me have different systems of morality.

[BLANDCorporatio]

The Predictamancers are a different story. They seem to try to enact their Predictions, but often seem to fail to foresee the unintended consequences of their actions. Ignoring the damage you do in order to reach a goal is "teh Ends justifying the means", and no one considers that good.

Wait a second, what are we talking about?:

I have always been of the belief that the treal Conspiracy behind this is the Predictamancers. I just don't find their intent to create Peace worthy of everyone else's accusations of manipulation and evil. Manipulating everyone into not killing each other isn't vile, to me.

I thought you were asking about the Predictamancer stuff, and I presumed to know why various people (me, or Housellama calling "every Predictamancer we've met is an inusfferable git" etc) were less than warm about that caster group.

If you meant to ask about Florists then I have no idea. It didn't seem to me that "teh forumz" assumed a poo-poo stance at them, with the possible recent exception of atalex. It may well be that "we"'ll decide Florists are insufferable gits too, but there's hardly a consensus forming in that direction right now.

[Balerion]

The difference here is that the Florists don't have any other means to achieve their goal. I have said before that if there is only one way to achieve a good goal, then that way is inherently not evil.

errrr..... that is basically just saying the ends justify the means, which you just said wasn't true. Seeing only one path to a good goal doesn't suddenly make that path moral. For example, suppose I am a deranged individual, and the only thing that can make me happy is killing people. Being happy is a good goal. The fact that my only path of reaching there is slaughtering others doesn't suddenly make my killing spree okay.

People who argue the ends justify the means never choose the bloody/damaging path on purpose. They generally are taking what they feel to be the least cost/only way to accomplish what needs to be done. Deciding if their action is evil or not in that light generally takes a pretty complicated analysis, made more difficult if you analyze from conflicting moral systems.

Through the rest of what you are saying, it sounds like you are making a moral relativism argument, but I am not 100% sure that is what you are going for. Is that a fair assessment?

[Whispri]

One thing I have not seen discussed yet: What do folks think about the fact that Flower Power, the magic of hippie peacniks, apparently renders individuals incapable of resisting sexual assault?!? But for the fact that Wanda is a croakamancer and thus able to retaliate by sending uncroaked to threaten her would-be suitors with rape, Wanda would apparently have been the victim of, at the very least, a lot of undesired groping and probably a lot worse. Flower Power definitely has the potential to be a lot darker than we'd thought.

It does seem like a truly nasty brand of magic. 'Evil Florist' may actually be tautology. Still, far future Wanda does have a flower on her livery, so it seems the flower girl must be destined to leave a positive impression.

Croakamancers also get the bonus leading decrypted.

Leadership bonus, yes. But can Wanda lead the Decrypted in a Dance fight? She can't control their every move as she could with the Uncroaked... If not? A stack of Uncroaked infantry, led by her, would actually be more potent than a force of Decrypted infantry of equal level.

[Ditto]

The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not

Bahahaha I want to sig this.

[Goshen]

Croakamancers also get the bonus leading decrypted.

Leadership bonus, yes. But can Wanda lead the Decrypted in a Dance fight? She can't control their every move as she could with the Uncroaked... If not? A stack of Uncroaked infantry, led by her, would actually be more potent than a force of Decrypted infantry of equal level.

In her future, she will do exactly that, seen way back in Book One: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F127.jpg

[ftl]

Croakamancers also get the bonus leading decrypted.

Leadership bonus, yes. But can Wanda lead the Decrypted in a Dance fight? She can't control their every move as she could with the Uncroaked... If not? A stack of Uncroaked infantry, led by her, would actually be more potent than a force of Decrypted infantry of equal level.

In her future, she will do exactly that, seen way back in Book One: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F127.jpg

That was uncroaked, not decrypted. Unclear if the bonuses will be the same. I suspect so, but we've never seen her lead Decrypted infantry in a dance-fight, unless it happened in the summer updates and I forgot.