Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby badninja » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:20 pm

splintermute wrote:
Casters are captured all the time - they're the only units worth capturing or preserving, other than high level warlords. Charlie attempted to capture supposed hippiemancer Parson, Stanley captured Wanda and Jack from Faq, Bea sent her casters into the MK before she destroyed herself, and Jillian asked Wanda's permission to send her caster into the MK before the attack on Spacerock. Presumably casters are difficult to capture because you hardly ever send them into battle without major defenses, unlike some warlords.

Every caster is a significant asset for its side, but, yes, Wanda is considerably more significant than usual.


With Bea I see it as a desperation or standard order. In book 1 Sizemore was targeted in combat, not to capture, but to be killed while he was defending the tunnels. Yes I know that they did not know he was there but come on they went for the kill not the capture.

With Jillian her move could be a standard move when dealing with dangerous forces in the field. Charlie wants Parson bad, bad enough to commit major plan to take out a side. Charlie does not sound like a person who takes a very active roll, he may stir up trouble here and there to make business but not to the level he has been showing. Also why is GK not trying to capture Jetstone's casters? We have not heard any plans about them but in passing , if they where trying why not mention them?

It has still not answered the important question of what makes her and why is Wanda so important that every side around her wants her out of her side?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Gorky » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:54 pm

badninja wrote:
It has still not answered the important question of what makes her and why is Wanda so important that every side around her wants her out of her side?

This may be the central plot point of Erfworld. Remember:

One day in the country of zero, someone paid a price. Somewhere in the great, infinite sheet of balance, a peak rose up.

Peaceful zeros became ones. Fives. Forty-eights. Agitated hundred-and-twelves. Angry sixty-three-seventy-nines.

The thousands piled up, far above the plane of equilibrium. The numbers rose as a column, into the millions and billions and more, a silver thread stretching up and away from the peace below.

This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a "Grandiocosmic string." Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis.

For when the price was paid, it was Erfworld which processed the transaction. The world would produce the unit that was called for...more or less. There was the matter of the Fate Axis as well, and this unit was turning out to be very special. This unit would be worth far more than the buyer had paid for.

That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.

Zero always called, and someone would have to pay.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Gorky » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:07 pm

So Wanda is level 4 now. Clay was level 3 at the beginning of this story (not sure if he leveled up). What level is Delphie?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Terah » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:09 am

SteveMB wrote:I notice that Delphie didn't exactly answer the question....

A predictomancer who won't answer her Overlord's questions is not worth the upkeep. This transgression was so obvious that I would politely ask again, and if she still won't answer then Disband her without regret. Actually, skip the ask again part. I would not trust her answer and that makes her useless.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:37 am

gameboy1234 wrote:Here's a weird thought. Everyone assumes that Olive has already been Wanda's chief caster by the time Book 1 opens, but what if it hasn't happened yet? Could Olive appear in the main story?


Well one thing we have to take into account is how wanda is presented here and how she is presented in the present timeline. In the past she is more idealistic and hopeful and fights against her fate, but in the present she is a fatalist; She fully believes that fate is inevitable. The most likely thing that could happen that could convince Wanda that this is the case is by seeing her fate come true, in this case working for olive. If she however were NOT to work for Olive, she would more likely come to the belief that she DID escape her fate and thus would not be such a fatalist; She had enough reason to believe that fate is not written in stone and thus would be able to maintain her old beliefs even if the outcome she got fighting fate was far from ideal.

badninja wrote:I have had a nagging question, why is Wanda so important that a low level predicamancer's prediction could carry this amount of importance? From what we have seen Olive is the only other caster we have seen that could be high in level everyone else has not been that high in level. What is Wanda's future and why is it so important could it be more then GK? Look at the effort that has gone into capturing Wanda, yes casters are important but why from Book 1 forward has no side made any attempt at capturing an enemy caster something odd is happening with Wanda.

Well WE know that wanda is important due to her connection to the arken pliers. Granted we don't know if Olive or Delphie know this, but they atleast know that wanda has a VERY important role to play and delphie even believes that wanda is more important than the side itself... she may not know about wanda connection to the tools, but she atleast knows she's gonna be a big deal eventually.

As for the lack of attempts to capture casters, that i think has more to due with the lack of opportunities to capture casters. I mean we do have to take into account that trying to capture a caster is dangerous since they tend to be well protected and can do a lot of damage on their own; furthermore you need certain gears or specials for capturing into order to capture a unit; don't have the gear then you can only take the unit if they surrender/turn

In Book 1, Ansom did not bring a net with him when he first encountered wanda over the walls and thus did not have the means to capture her. Later on they were preparing to take the city and all the casters were inside; they could have made the attempt to capture them if the pushed on with the attack, but it was at that time that parson ordered the city to crumble and thus through their forces into chaos. Granted when the warlords encountered Sizemore in the tunnels they did not give him a chance to surrender and no attempt to capture, so their might be a point there.

In unaroyal, Bea made sure that GK never got a chance to take her casters

At the battle of spacerock, Wanda at this point had the arken pliers and thus may be far less concerned about taking casters alive as she can attempt to decrypt them and get take them that way. As for Jillian, she seemed uninterested in taking Wanda or Jack without their consent as she did not want to fight.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Saladman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:20 am

Terah wrote:
SteveMB wrote:I notice that Delphie didn't exactly answer the question....

A predictomancer who won't answer her Overlord's questions is not worth the upkeep. This transgression was so obvious that I would politely ask again, and if she still won't answer then Disband her without regret. Actually, skip the ask again part. I would not trust her answer and that makes her useless.


I might have disbanded her or dismissed her to the magic kingdom well before now, but to be fair, Overlord Firebaugh may be doomed no matter what he does at this point. And Wanda's plan apparently relies on having Delphie direct the tower's air defense spells while she and possibly Clay have other duties, so now's a bad time to drop her.

You've jogged my mind though. I wonder what kind of deals are usual for magic kingdom mercenaries. Whether they'll work for upkeep only or look for a fee above that for their purse. Because the game-playing, second-guessing forum reader in me thinks that, when they first realized Delphie's limitations the thing to do would be to dismiss her and hire a merc from the magic kingdom with the saved upkeep cost. Wanda was having Delphie buff the tower anyway, so a shockmancer would be one obvious choice.

Though it's also not clear how available some specialties are, since dirtamancers for one are rare and internally valuable in the MK. Quite possibly some casters are more sought after and therefore have more prior engagements than others.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby SteveMB » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:03 pm

badninja wrote:I have had a nagging question, why is Wanda so important that a low level predicamancer's prediction could carry this amount of importance? From what we have seen Olive is the only other caster we have seen that could be high in level everyone else has not been that high in level. What is Wanda's future and why is it so important could it be more then GK? Look at the effort that has gone into capturing Wanda, yes casters are important but why from Book 1 forward has no side made any attempt at capturing an enemy caster something odd is happening with Wanda.


It's hard to tell, since we only have partial information about what Delphie has Predicted about her -- and, from what we know of Delphie, she may have Predicted other things (e.g. "Wanda will some turn summon an eldrich abomination from a dimension where the very laws of time and space are alien") that she does not choose to reveal.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby multilis » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:42 pm

"why is Wanda so important that a low level predicamancer's prediction could carry this amount of importance?"

One option is the enemies are evil backstabbers and working together. They have a 5 on 1 gang up, one enemy becomes frenemy at same time as 2 frenemies become open enemies. With Wanda the side has faint hope even with 5 on 1, so you play false friend to take her. Not much different in style than the poisoned kiss. If Wanda is worth less than what you trade for her, you simply add secret contract with your evil allies to get some back later.

...

Jack, Jill, and Parson also have pupils in their eyes, Jack is very good caster. 4 unusual people so far in Erfworld. 4 known tools. Parson's original beta game in book 1 involved 4 human players. (If they all joined erfworld, would be 5 earth visitors). Possible Parson/Earth creates erfworld, but also possible that "Fate" is from outside of earth, and did thinkomancy tampering on Parson while on earth to get him ready for Erfworld, just as it got Wanda ready.

Both Parson and Wanda start story off in badly losing situations. "My car is a rolling bomb..." - "Fate" may choose that to make targets easier to manipulate.

For all we know, "Earth" and "Erfworld" could be two different games on some big supercomputer, and "Fate" is players/programmers/ai modifying the game. Other webcomics such as "Not a villian" and "Endstone" seem to work like that. (Computer could be product of humans or aliens)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Gorky » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:53 am

multilis wrote:Jack, Jill, and Parson also have pupils in their eyes, Jack is very good caster. 4 unusual people so far in Erfworld. 4 known tools. Parson's original beta game in book 1 involved 4 human players. (If they all joined erfworld, would be 5 earth visitors). Possible Parson/Earth creates erfworld, but also possible that "Fate" is from outside of earth, and did thinkomancy tampering on Parson while on earth to get him ready for Erfworld, just as it got Wanda ready.

Both Parson and Wanda start story off in badly losing situations. "My car is a rolling bomb..." - "Fate" may choose that to make targets easier to manipulate.

For all we know, "Earth" and "Erfworld" could be two different games on some big supercomputer, and "Fate" is players/programmers/ai modifying the game. Other webcomics such as "Not a villian" and "Endstone" seem to work like that. (Computer could be product of humans or aliens)

How did I not see this before? Jack and Jill? Will they go up a hill at some point? Or have they come tumbling down already?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Whispri » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:56 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Here's a weird thought. Everyone assumes that Olive has already been Wanda's chief caster by the time Book 1 opens, but what if it hasn't happened yet? Could Olive appear in the main story?

I'm thinking something like Parson and most GK casters split off and form their own side (still like this idea). Parson, being a hippiemancer, finds out how useful hippymancy is and promotes a high level hippiemancer to chief caster for various hippie related bonuses. It's Olive, of course.

Personally, I remain unconvinced that they'll ever so much as breathe the same air a second time (well aside from possible Magick Kindom encounters). A Prediction from a known liar that happily indicated that events should proceed as she desired them too? Dubious worth.

Given that most of their army consists of Decrypted units rather than killer plants, I'd pick Wanda over the flower girl every time. Wait, is this whole Book a Plants vs Zombies thing? Anyway if Wanda starts her own side (thus allowing access to the Magic Kindom from Space Rock once the City is taken, the 'stay alive' order she's under could also play a role given the risk of the portal collapsing mid-transit) and if Olive is either alive or returns from the dead, then maybe she could be Wanda's Chief Caster in that time period.

badninja wrote:I have had a nagging question, why is Wanda so important that a low level predicamancer's prediction could carry this amount of importance? From what we have seen Olive is the only other caster we have seen that could be high in level everyone else has not been that high in level. What is Wanda's future and why is it so important could it be more then GK? Look at the effort that has gone into capturing Wanda, yes casters are important but why from Book 1 forward has no side made any attempt at capturing an enemy caster something odd is happening with Wanda.

Leaving aside the 'she will accomplish something magnificent in the distant future, pay the bill Goodminton' line of thought... There are a few hints. For example, take the Snow Golem. A crude, barely useful thing, but... she created it on her first attempt at Hatmagic, without any training whatsoever. Signs point to prodigy. Get her a few lessons (or books of magic to read) and who knows what she may be capable of? The discussion with Tommy that led to her denying Retconjury might come floating back to call her silly. Then there's the whole popping in the war room business, she must have been born there for a reason.

All I know for certain is that Wanda needs a sword-cane.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby doran » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Lamech wrote:So, another change we see in Wanda: Book-0-Wanda loves trying out all the kinds of magic. She uses hatomancy just for kicks, buffs spells with Rhyme-o-mancy, all in all pretty good. But Book-1-Wanda, is pretty well opposed to the idea


I don't think she loves it as such - she's just determined not to be blind-sided with ignorance of how other casters work. It could be in present day erfworld, Wanda thinks she's learned enough to no longer actively practice magic, plus there are enough other casters one of them could be simply ordered to do it. Remember though she still uses scrolls a lot.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby arkerpay » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:33 pm

Perhaps the scroll is flower power. If there is a spell that prevents a side from engaging in battle unless attacked, a great tactic would be to prevent only Frenemy or Quisling from engaging. Then the unaffected side could be engaged with much better odds.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Saladman » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 am

arkerpay wrote:Perhaps the scroll is flower power. If there is a spell that prevents a side from engaging in battle unless attacked, a great tactic would be to prevent only Frenemy or Quisling from engaging. Then the unaffected side could be engaged with much better odds.


Good call. I think that's as likely as anything and more likely than some.

Whether it is or not, I wonder if this is the first time we see Wanda flub a casting. Would explain her "talent, but little interest" later on, and move the tragedy along. Then again, Rob's got a talent for keeping me waiting for the other shoe to drop, so maybe they do pull out a win here before Haffaton comes along and steamrolls them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Whispri » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:17 am

arkerpay wrote:Perhaps the scroll is flower power. If there is a spell that prevents a side from engaging in battle unless attacked, a great tactic would be to prevent only Frenemy or Quisling from engaging. Then the unaffected side could be engaged with much better odds.

The scroll is of a type of magic she's barely even thought of, therefore it cannot be flower power as she's spent a lot of time thinking about it thanks to the obvious danger of the enemy flower girl she encountered.

doran wrote:I don't think she loves it as such - she's just determined not to be blind-sided with ignorance of how other casters work. It could be in present day erfworld, Wanda thinks she's learned enough to no longer actively practice magic, plus there are enough other casters one of them could be simply ordered to do it. Remember though she still uses scrolls a lot.

There are only three other Casters in her side of the future though, so... why no Hat Golems? She's punching below her weight and I fear the 'something horrible happens' thing may be right on the money. 'Course it may just be that she doesn't want to have to explain it to Stanley...

Lamech wrote:So, another change we see in Wanda: Book-0-Wanda loves trying out all the kinds of magic. She uses hatomancy just for kicks, buffs spells with Rhyme-o-mancy, all in all pretty good. But Book-1-Wanda, is pretty well opposed to the idea. And in Book-2 Wanda just seems to do nothing with her juice. I suppose she might be making items or something with the spare juice, but for all the things she could do, and simply avoiding it? In fact, has she even tried to learn healomancy? Especially when they need it so badly?

Therefore I think that something bad must happen to scare her off from using the other magicks. :cry:

Also note about the hat golems: If its just the item off-turn they can be de-hatted. No hat, no unit, no upkeep. Then as soon as you need them they can all hat up and boom! Insta-army.

She was probably the one who spelled up Progrock's Tower at the every least. As far as Healomancy goes, it may be a case of jealously guarded secrets on the part of the Healomancers combined with insufficient Caster bonuses in the field for whatever she could teach herself to be worth a damn.

Perhaps Goodminton falls purely because Faq come to carry her off to durance vile having learned of her talent?

There may be a juice cost to re-animating it. Then again, if the spell is on the hat...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Sixty » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:16 pm

I would think there were no golems made by Wanda in GK pre Book 1 because Sizemore was doing a lot of the golem duties and Wanda was flying out to uncroak a lot of units after all the battles GK kept losing took most of her juice. Not to mention it is possible she was doing some tower spells, making scrolls, and had stated that she was capable but had little interest in other magics. Like someone said, possible that she simply ended up learning a good deal about a lot of different magic and stopped experimenting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby kagato23 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:56 am

Yeah, I would bet Golems directly created are stronger then golems created by hat-o-mancy, even when by an actual hat-o-mancer. So a dirtamancer's crap golem is probably leaps and bounds better then something Wanda could create with her side talents. She's not stupid, she'd have been making golems if she thought they were more effective, liking it or not. I'm sure all agreed though that uncroaking was a better use of her juice.

We don't know how the caster system works in terms of being outside discipline, but it's reasonably safe to assume that even a master class caster is never going to be as powerful in another discipline then their own against that discipline unless other differences in their cases are staggering (wide level gap, novice vs master, artifact bonus, etc.).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:22 pm

OMG why didn't I realize this sooner?!

The scroll is Carnymancy!
Think about it, Wanda is (presumably) trying to fight Fate, and Carnymancy is the one school that claims to cheat Fate. But because (as far as we have seen) Fate tends to have its way eventually, it would make sense for Carnymancy to feel dirty and strange (especially to a caster who will eventually come to be so devoted to Fate). Also note that Carynmancy, Croakamancy, Predictamancy, and Signamancy (Wanda seems to have something of an obsession with Natural Signamancy) are all on the Fate axis of magic...

Sizemore's reaction towards Jeftichew's Carnymancy scroll also makes sense. Either the suspicion of Carnymancy is widespread in the MK, or Wanda taught him to avoid it as a result of her experience with the scroll she's "currently" holding.

Either way, I'm concerned this means that her plan is going to go terribly awry, since it seems Wanda is placing a lot of hope on this scroll.

(Edit: Also note that Thinkamancy is on the Fate axis as well, and Wanda also has a bit of an obsession with Natural Thinkamancy and orders)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Whispri » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:06 pm

One of her side's enemies has a Carnymancer... and Carnymancy is Stagemagick, just like the Rhyme-o-mancy and Hat Magic, the magic she's so proud of learning. So there's a strong case to be made for Carnamancy to be a magic she's spent time thinking about.

Sixty wrote:I would think there were no golems made by Wanda in GK pre Book 1 because Sizemore was doing a lot of the golem duties and Wanda was flying out to uncroak a lot of units after all the battles GK kept losing took most of her juice. Not to mention it is possible she was doing some tower spells, making scrolls, and had stated that she was capable but had little interest in other magics. Like someone said, possible that she simply ended up learning a good deal about a lot of different magic and stopped experimenting.

Sizemore's Golems never seem to leave the Capital, indeed, they wouldn't have come as a surpise for Ansom if they had ever been fielded against him. Losing a battle is going to leave all or most of the Croakamancy porn in enemy hands. Spell defences rarely need replacing and there are other Casters around to do so. Scrolls are worthless if they aren't used, something Wanda happily avoided doing at the Battle for Gobwin Knob. Being confident in her own abilities doesn't justify failing to use them in persuit of her long term goals. And honestly? Most of those pressures apply today and yet, Snow Golem.

kagato23 wrote:Yeah, I would bet Golems directly created are stronger then golems created by hat-o-mancy, even when by an actual hat-o-mancer. So a dirtamancer's crap golem is probably leaps and bounds better then something Wanda could create with her side talents. She's not stupid, she'd have been making golems if she thought they were more effective, liking it or not. I'm sure all agreed though that uncroaking was a better use of her juice.

We don't know how the caster system works in terms of being outside discipline, but it's reasonably safe to assume that even a master class caster is never going to be as powerful in another discipline then their own against that discipline unless other differences in their cases are staggering (wide level gap, novice vs master, artifact bonus, etc.).

Why should Dirt magic be stronger than Hat magic? Even if it were, what argument is there against having extra types of Golem to hand? Given that in Book One, when the Capital itself was under attack, Wanda had no Uncroaking to do for at least four turns straight...

I see no reason why Wanda can't Master multiple disciplines. She lacks whatever special vision the various Caster types have (unless she uses devices like Parson's goggle things), the secretive malignant buggers in the Magick Kingdom might make it harder than it needs to be for her to learn and she probably won't gain extra power in other fields just by levelling, but...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Jack Snipe » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:13 pm

Lamech wrote:So, another change we see in Wanda: Book-0-Wanda loves trying out all the kinds of magic. She uses hatomancy just for kicks, buffs spells with Rhyme-o-mancy, all in all pretty good. But Book-1-Wanda, is pretty well opposed to the idea.


She uses Rhyme-o-mancy in Book 1 as well.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F119.jpg
Probably to buff herself and/or her Uncroaked, which would explain why they had so little trouble disarming and dismounting a level 10 royal Warlord. If I remember correctly that was the point of some speculation back then. :geek:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 019

Postby Whispri » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:25 am

Jack Snipe wrote:
Lamech wrote:So, another change we see in Wanda: Book-0-Wanda loves trying out all the kinds of magic. She uses hatomancy just for kicks, buffs spells with Rhyme-o-mancy, all in all pretty good. But Book-1-Wanda, is pretty well opposed to the idea.


She uses Rhyme-o-mancy in Book 1 as well.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F119.jpg
Probably to buff herself and/or her Uncroaked, which would explain why they had so little trouble disarming and dismounting a level 10 royal Warlord. If I remember correctly that was the point of some speculation back then. :geek:

That's Dance-Fighting though, not quite the same thing as actual Caster style magic use.
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