Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:32 pm

So Delphie actually does teach the kids as well as molesting them. And she does commit to the fight when it comes to it. I really thought she would continue to push for some version of the Haffaton deal.

Also, i think this explains why, back in Book 1, Wanda only balked when nearly all of Gobwin Knobs forces were undead. She was going on her previous experiences which made her comfortable with an army of zombies. This also means that that practice was well known so most likely, the RCC 1 had taken that into account and minimized her opportunities to collect their corpses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby badninja » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:55 pm

Interesting update but how will the other shoe drop because we all seem to think it is going to happen. So now the question is when and where that it will happen.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby OneHugeTuck » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:57 pm

Wow. Go mancer combos!

Methinks that sides' rulers significantly underuse their caster combos.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Kaed » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:03 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:Wow. Go mancer combos!

Methinks that sides' rulers significantly underuse their caster combos.


Heck yes. Dirtamancers are like, one of the most awesome casters ever, and Stanley has Sizemore clean up the poop. Idiot :O
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby mmooneybsa » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:22 pm

*mancer wrote:
Pyrates wrote:So who can make sense out of

"Dobler," she incanted, "Tatum, Samuelsson, McSorley..." The tower rumbled. "Cobb!" Wanda shouted. "Rose!"


?


They were all "dirty" athletes. Dobler and Tatum were dirty football players, Samuelsson and McSorley hockey and Cobb and Rose baseball.



Enjoy:

http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/6102/Sports++Recreation/Dirtiest+Players+in+Sports.aspx
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers/dirtiest/players.html
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Angband » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:03 pm

Given what the Dirtamancy scroll did, it would be great if Delphie had bought it from Bob the Builder.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby name lips » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:11 pm

0beron wrote:
Nebulious wrote:Knowing that eventually Wanda will be a member of distant FAQ and her near-fatalist view of fate, I get scared every time something like this goes so right. In my mind it's only setting up for a heavier shoe to drop. Damn you, Balder!


Has anyone considered the possibility that Delphi is WRONG? (not trying to challenge you, it just occurred to me as a possibility)
Could she have misinterpreted? Could her flawed prediction in of itself be part of Wanda's fate?

I find it quite likely that Delphi is incorrectly interpreting her own prophecies.

I don't know how she gets prophecies. Are they visions? Words? Strong feelings? Ouija board?

If there are words involved, we are crippled in our predictions because we need to know the exact wording. Prophecies are tricky. Is Delphi telling us the actual prophecy, or her own interpretation of the words (which she hasn't told anybody).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Morni » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:00 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:Wow. Go mancer combos!

Methinks that sides' rulers significantly underuse their caster combos.


but currently most rulers tend to stay away from the caster businesses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Saladman » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:35 pm

That was a sweet update. Thanks Rob.


It's interesting to see the parallel between Wanda really setting out to learn about magic and combat, and Parson doing the same thing when he was brought to Erfworld. That, as well as the "perfect warlord" promise, may partly explain Wanda's faith and patience with him. Yet she ended up giving that up herself, at least openly, which is interesting. More evidence her defeat, when it comes, is going to be devastating.

This update also highlights another thing we already had an idea of, which is just how much a popped units thinking is channeled by their type. Sure, they have the basic knowledge to perform their own function, but they seem to lack both knowledge and interest in other things, especially across the caster/warlord divide. A side that ever figured that out and established a cross-type academy just to teach capabilities and tactical options would have a huge advantage, but it seems that's so far outside their conception it'll take Parson to do it.

I suppose the counter-argument would be that Wanda's a rare case in her early promotion to Chief. On a more secure side she'd have time to pick some of this up through experience, and have visited the magic kingdom as well, before leveling enough to make Chief the traditional way. There was a reference to "revisiting the side's whole strategy" when Jetstone lost their dollamancer, so maybe smart enough rulers and Chiefs do try to work this kind of thing out, just in a less academic way.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby PhantomFox » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:16 pm

Okay, that was greatly satisfying. I imagine the problem of getting that many casters is the main issue, since they seem to synergize very well.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Lamech » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:30 pm

So, I have a question: Can clay make items that auto-alter units dice? Say a hat of critical strikes? Be good for in combat.
But the tricky thing is how about a hat of low damage strikes and missing? When units go out hunting they can wail away at the target and not kill it. And conveniently use up all there low damage strikes and misses! Maybe they could even herd a bunch of stuff into the city and every day take a bunch of low damage strikes just making sure not to kill anything and repeat each turn. Roll out all the ones as it were.

Oh, and Sizemore might be better served by enhancing the city. Just keep making the tower bigger and bigger or something. Also I wonder if you could build floating buildings somehow, powerballs as a foundation or something. Then there would be no structural limits to the size of the tower. (Stack floating buildings on top of each other.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby doran » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:30 pm

Anyone got any ideas what Wanda's going to do with her uncroaked flyers? I guess she could mass uncroak them and send them out after Quisling, but if her primary goal is defense, then she might preserve the bodies by moving them each turn, and keep only a small force and uncroak the others as needed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:59 pm

0beron wrote:

Scrolls are one time use only, and the caster does NOT expend juice when they use a scroll...

Which has nothing to do with Vancian magic. Vancian magic, also known as Dungeons-and-Dragons style magic (at least until the 4th Edition) is about how casters cast spells. In some systems, a caster knows X number of spells, and can cast any combination of them until they run out of power. In Vancian systems, the caster has to pick which spells, and how many of each spell, in advance, and often ends up 'wasting' spells if the situation doesn't require them.

Scrolls are almost always 1-shot castings that don't drain the caster, regardless of the magic system.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:01 pm

Whispri wrote:Victory! And a level Five City to boot.

We don't know that it's a Level 5. A side does not need Dirtamancy to level a city, it merely needs money in the treasury. Dirtamancy merely makes the upgrade cheaper and better. Goodminton did not need the scroll to upgrade, just to improve. We've seen before how a city's level does not directly equate to its strength. Gobwin Know is Level 5, but it is theoretically equal to a Level 8. Transylvito is a Level 4 but stronger than many Level 5 cities. Kiloton is a Level 4, but it is Haffaton's second largest production center, even though Haffaton has 2 Level 5 cities. So, Goodminton may have only used the scroll to improve Minnow Tower, rather than upgrade the city. On the other hand, they may have done both.

Berserkas wrote:Also: Finally, some pwnage! Though if they had any stored spells left, they really should have assaulted both of the armies, just to score more kills for Wanda to uncroak.

I'm also highly dissapointed. I mean, really. They have been charging the tower for... how long? Six, ten turns? Ever since Wanda ordered them to. And they wiped out a good chunk of their enemies, despite neither Delphie or Clay being direct combat casters. If Delphie and Clay had tended to the air defenses instead of i imagine HUNDREDS of turns letting their juice go to waste (at least Delphie's) because OMG THE SIDE IS DOOMED ANYWAYS, then perhaps the side wouldn't be so damned doomed. :roll:

I'm willing to bet Goodminton was bluffing Quisling. Before the upgrading Minnow Tower, they had enough defenses to shoot down 1/10th of the enemy flyers. Even focusing solely on Frenemy, they managed to down less than half their force. It also stated that Frenemy's forces had weak air to surface capabilities, which implies that Quisling was actually the greater threat. I think Goodminton focused on the force that was less of a threat rather than risk the damage Quisling could do. In the end, though, I think it was a bluff. They lacked the capabilities to shoot down both forces. Just the action against Frenemy probably depleted virtually all their stored spells. While they probably would have won against both, Quisling and Fremeny could have done quite a bit of damage before succumbing. That damage would have outweighed any added benefit. This way, Goodminton broke their morale and achieved a victory without any losses.

Also, it has been over 8 turns since Wanda ordered Delphie to start boosting the tower defenses. We don't know how many more. While we know Goodminton abandoned their slower units and headed back to the capital alacritously, they also seem to have picked up reinforcements from other cities, so they may not have taken the quickest route. Even then, they would have only been able to shoot down 1/10th of the combined opposition. If they had spent a hundred turns spelling up the tower, it may not have resulted in a better outcome. If they had enough stored spells to shoot down all the enemy, Wanda wouldn't have started asking questions. They wouldn't have gotten the Dirtamancy scroll. Minnow Tower was described as "(p)athetic for spell bonuses" and "earned the designation 'tower' by being a somewhat taller gray rectangle than those that comprised the rest of the Garrison." If they didn't upgrade the tower, it wouldn't have been as effective. If Wanda hadn't started asking questions, they may not have decided to have Delphie guide the defenses boosted by Clay. They may have gone with their original plan to embed the casters with the leadership in the courtyard. With spells from the tower missing and not getting crits on high value targets, the enemy could have landed and engaged in an equal battle. If Goodminton felt they had the ability to take on both "allies," they may have targetted both. Quisling may have had much greater air to surface capabilities. It is the whole butterfly effect scenario. Change something and countless other things change. Goodminton's tower defenses being better prepared may not have resulted in a better outcome. Also, we don't know if Goodminton could have hung spells on "pathetic "Minnow Tower for a hundred turns. There very well may be a limit to what the tower could store.

multilis wrote:Enemies that waited for the main army to return to the capital... that hints of a lack of trust between them that they couldn't diplomatically quickly make an agreement, and sack the capital while it was still easy.

Frenemy and Quisling trust each other even less now, Frenemy will now fear that Quisling had secret deal and backstabbed them. (Frenemy lost their warlords, Quisling lost nothing, so fear that Quisling is really plotting a surprise attack on Frenemy capital)

Divide and conquer is mentioned here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_38b

2 parts to that here, making the 5 enemies paranoid of others secretly working with you; and trying to only fight one army at a time so you always get crushing victories. (Napoleon's wars are good examples of attempting the latter...)

If they had attacked Quisling then Frenemy and Quisling would be less divided and they would have taken some losses, and less "fear"/reputation. Now no one knows what tower defenses or other surprises they may still have left. So easier to continue to play the game of getting each enemy to wait for other to attack first.

Wanda now has a small elite force of uncroaked, in the only side that is desperate enough to have chief warlord and high level caster in every big battle (which gives uncroaked a double bonus). Small elite army, all on mounts can be deadly using hit and run tactics. In the above Klog this tactic is best described as "melt away/insurgency".

Napoleon once said that he'd rather fight an alliance than be part of one, and that is why. It is very difficult for alliances to trust each other and coordinate their actions. It was a major problem until the invention of Allied Command in the last century. Of course, it was very difficult for a single nation to coordinate its efforts until the Prussians came up with the General Staff. Still, real world examples are problematic when applying them to Erfworld. Communication is much better in Erfworld than very recently in ours. While Goodminton hasn't trusted their "allies" for a while, the allies were still able to pass information to Haffaton, which indicates some sort of automatic intelligence sharing that can't be turned off. It is much easier to marshal your forces in Erfworld than Earth. There is no need to gather supplies, train the troops or muster at a location. If a side is fighting an alliance, they have the advantage of interior lines. If the enemy does not coordinate well, the side can defeat them in detail. Still, when that has happened successfully in history, the lone side either has a strong force at the onset of hostilies or greater reserves than their enemies. Also, it requires diplomacy. Goodminton is pathetically weak. When Wanda first popped, she almost overlooked her own side since the blue units were insignificant compared to the other 5 sides. They've just lost their allies and blown their diplomatic chance with Haffaton. Unless they can work something out with the other 2 sides in the battlespace, they're in trouble. Prussia was on its knees in the Seven Years' War when Peter III became Tsar and, an admirer of Frederick II, made peace. Also, while the British, Prussia's ally, offered insiginificant help on the Continent, they successful dismembered France's colonial possessions, both weakening and distracting them. Napoleon was very successful, but his inability to come to diplomatic terms cost him in the end. As late as 1814, beaten and driven back within France's borders, he could have accepted the Coalition's terms and remained on the French throne, since he had earned the admiration of his adversaries. Instead, he refused to reliquish his ambitions for Continental dominance, and he lost everything.

As for Frenemy and Quisling, I bet Haffaton will bring them in line. Haffaton seems to be a regional power. Frenemy and Quisling have been working with Haffaton for a while. I would bet they already have an agreement in principle, even if the alliance with Goodminton prevented a formal agreement. Olive knew that Frenemy and Quisling had moved on Goodminton. I think Haffaton is pulling their strings, and now that the alliance with Goodminton is broken, we may see them ally formally with Haffaton. The victory at Goodminton was achieved by breaking the morale of the enemy. You can't count on that in the future. Multi-front wars always bleed a side dry. Even if Croakamancy slows the hemorrhaging, it won't stop it. The best Goodminton can do is come to a settlement while they're ahead, and they blew that at Kiloton.

The problem with hit-and-run tactics is that the Parthians, Maygars and Mongols didn't have to deal with turn-based warfare. They could melt away to avoid contact with a superior force. They could ride all night to be somewhere unexpected. There wasn't natural Thinkamancy and Magic Hats that allowed instantaneous communication. I'm not saying such tactics wouldn't be effective in Erfworld, but they'll be much less effective than on Earth. There would have been no Carrhae if the Parthians used up all their move and had to end turn. While Goodminton should use their interior lines to their advantage and try to pick their battles, they're down to two cities, and they can't abandon them. They can't afford to trade territory for time.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Wow. Go mancer combos!

Methinks that sides' rulers significantly underuse their caster combos.

There does seem to be a corollation between a side's power and its number of casters. Almost all sides have 1 caster, since they usually pop among the first few warlords. 2 seems average. Delphie made it seem like having a 3rd caster pop is pretty extrordinary. Transylvito has at least 3 casters, and they were pretty powerful/influential. Unaroyal and Jetstone both had 4 and were pretty powerful sides. Gobwin Knob had 5 at one point, but 2 of those were captures. Gobwin Knob was mostly hindered by Stanley's leadership. The only exception I can think of was Faq, which seemed to have many casters for such a small side, but as they were a philosophical nation, they may have collected them. Of course, it is a bit of a chicken or the egg thing. Are those sides powerful because of their number of casters, or do they have so many casters because they are so powerful.

I just realized I'm looking forward to 2 things. Wanda is still a Novice-class Croakamancer. We know she will be a Master-class Croakamancer. Each time she advances, she will gain a greater understanding. I look forward to seeing that happen. On the other hand, Wanda currently has no interest in any magic outside Croakamancy. Something will happen to end her past desire for greater understanding.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Radagast » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:14 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Nice update, glad to see an image of Frantz and Clay. Kudos to those who guess Dirtmancy for the scroll, although I'm not sure anyone guess on an upgrade for the tower.


I did, although I guessed they would bury the tower (or even the city) not make it taller :p

This, IMHO, has been the best of the prequel so far!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby name lips » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:43 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:I just realized I'm looking forward to 2 things. Wanda is still a Novice-class Croakamancer. We know she will be a Master-class Croakamancer. Each time she advances, she will gain a greater understanding. I look forward to seeing that happen. On the other hand, Wanda currently has no interest in any magic outside Croakamancy. Something will happen to end her past desire for greater understanding.

We know that "class" is separate from level.

But do we know what classes exist between Novice and Master?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Lamech » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:41 pm

First a two brief defenitions: There are disiplines of magic, such as flower power, date-o-mancy, and sign-a-mancy. Then classes of magic, such as Hippiemancy, stuffamancy or naughtymancy. 24 discipline and 8 classes of magic. Each class has three disciplines.

I'm pretty sure the classes are Novice, Adept and Master that we've seen. From Sizemore we know you go straight from Adept to Masterclass. We have also heard about Masterminds and Grand Abbeys. However we don't know if a mastermind is really anything other than a master class thinkamancer, or if it is an even higher class. Finally from Janice's example it appears a caster can get their hands on a whole class instead of being one discipline. We aren't 100% sure about this (Janice might really just be a florist who is called a hippiemancer), and we don't know how it happens. Some casters might be able to add the other disciplines somehow going from a florist to a hippiemancer, or some casters might simply pop having a whole class.

The upshot of all that is even if a caster reaches say... masterclass florist they might be able to expand all the way to hippiemancer. Also I hate to think of what one could accomplish with something like a Eyemancer-spook-stagemancer link up.

Also a final note: There could be something between adept and novice, but I doubt it. There could also be something below novice which archons, similar units, and casters like Wanda with hat magic could have.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby kefkakrazy » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:39 am

So, Predictamancers just officially became terrifying again, when it seemed (to me at least) that they weren't a particularly "useful" class of magic. This seems to be a trend with Erfworld's magic.


I can imagine a combat-capable Predictamancer, or a powerful combat unit with artifacts giving it Predictamancy specials, being a holy terror. Ansom was practically a one-man army with just the Arkenpliers artifact bonus and his natural high level, after all; give him Predictamancy goggles giving him a few seconds of precognition and look out!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby multilis » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:42 am

Mrtyuh wrote:The problem with hit-and-run tactics is that the Parthians, Maygars and Mongols didn't have to deal with turn-based warfare. They could melt away to avoid contact with a superior force. They could ride all night to be somewhere unexpected. There wasn't natural Thinkamancy and Magic Hats that allowed instantaneous communication.

Hit and run tactics are used in current age of instantaneous communication.

Lots of turn based games similar to Erfworld. Eg I read of someone describing a Warlords 3 game where he was vastly outnumbered against AI and played hit and run to eventually win an impossible game.

I personally am now playing Age of Wonders 2 - Shadow magic (was only a few dollars with electronic purchase/download). I often set game to turn based classic, which is similar to erfworld to get rid of the advantages from moving before and after enemies on a turn, etc. Hit and run is one of the most powerful tactics when facing super strong enemies (that includes using small fast armies as distraction). Another is to convert some of enemy army to your side, any way you can.

I also play online multiplayer strategy games, including massively multiplayer. One of fun things is to be a lone wolf against a powerful alliance with many members... one of your advantages is humans in large alliance are more laid back, waiting for one of their allies to deal with you rather than risk hurting their own personal army. Usually you do lots of hit and run, and try to make sure that every player that hits you feels more pain than gain. (I usually pretend to be easy prey and wait for powerful pirates to try and rob me, so I play a fairly good level of enemy. You don't win all the time against much superior foes, but you can win. Almost always you can cause several times as many enemy to lose as well)

In my opinion Wanda's side still has some chance, because their enemies are so sloppy and overconfident, likely don't trust each other, and also face external threats. Part of game is diplomacy... eg "render the enemy unable to unwilling to take the garrison/city/side" http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F124.jpg. If any side that takes you fears being destroyed next, that can make them unwilling. So far Wanda's father seems fairly good at that part.

In current situation Wanda's side wants to keep having smaller fights non-stop, because uncroaked decay but have zero upkeep. If you don't have many cities you have to replace troops by taking them from enemy, and you don't have to worry about the large converted army driving you bankrupt.

" Haffaton will bring them in line" - Haffaton scored a chief warlord kill by using dirty backstab tactic, but then blundered the bigger fight. They sent an army that *should* have won which means big army, and as result Wanda's army is now stronger. Deep in enemy territory, Haffaton had all the time in the world to prepare, and they blow it so badly...

Haffaton is richer, that also means bigger target for others. Haffaton and Frenemy put own kingdoms at risk with such losses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Berserkas » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:50 pm

previously I thought Predictamancers were only good for making prophecies,


when it seemed (to me at least) that they weren't a particularly "useful" class of magic. This seems to be a trend with Erfworld's magic.


Making a note here, i think we can now safely assume that even Healomancers and every other caster class there is have pretty devastating combat spells/abilities.

I mean, it turned out that Hippiemancers, who looked possibly the only type of casters who wouldn't have any combat capabilities whatsoever, actually deal with poisons, a pretty damn dangerous thing (although rations are mostly popped, poisoning food supplies is nigh impossible, but you can still cause real damage with them, as shown by Tommy's death. :| )

Erfworld is all about combat, and if it doesn't deal with combat, it's nearly meaningless. We are reminded of that with Olive Branche's/Delphie's examples...
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