Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Aquillion » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:33 pm

0beron wrote:
Nebulious wrote:Knowing that eventually Wanda will be a member of distant FAQ and her near-fatalist view of fate, I get scared every time something like this goes so right. In my mind it's only setting up for a heavier shoe to drop. Damn you, Balder!


Has anyone considered the possibility that Delphi is WRONG? (not trying to challenge you, it just occurred to me as a possibility)
Could she have misinterpreted? Could her flawed prediction in of itself be part of Wanda's fate?

Also another thought occurs...is it possible FAQ eventually captures/acquires both Wanda AND Olive, then given their known attitude toward peace, appoint Olive as the Chief?

In either event, Wanda's success right now and apparent "defeat" of Fate could in fact be part of Fate's plan.
No. Look at Wanda's philosophy in the main comic: Fighting fate is useless and painful; it's better to submit to it.

She wouldn't have that philosophy if her backstory included a major failing of a dramatic prophecy like that, or if she had benefited from trying to fight her destiny. That means that in the long run, we know that modern-era Wanda believes that she would have been better off accepting Olive's offer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby multilis » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:13 pm

Aquillion wrote:we know that modern-era Wanda believes that she would have been better off accepting Olive's offer.

I think we have evidence for that but do not know.

We don't know full wording of any prophesy or many of events.

The title of prequel "Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower)" is unclear. (Eg Wandas side may still win the 5 on 1 war before losing. Wanda may capture/enslave Olive, then a larger coalition may come, and Olive and Wanda are captured and Olive becomes boss till Wanda backstabs her)

It is possible that with full wording of prophesy and final events Wanda would see quietly submitting to Olive as worse option. (Wanda may end up hating Olive more than she loved any of her family and see her family as dead anyways but this way Olive dead as well.) Olive refused to say why they were making such a generous offer. Trade Wanda away and end result may be her side is dead faster and with less honor, still fighting 4 sides at once with Olive as new Frenemy #5 giving the 4 scouting info.

This way they may end up doing something legendary, and get revenge on the backstabbers before they die. Or perhaps they didn't all die after all, Father or someone else may still live. (Eg Jill the barbarian - FAQ still barely lived, and his Toolship also wanted to start new side). Croatan is lost tribe despite Wanda surviving so others may survive even after capital fell... which could throw a surprise into books 2 or 3
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby 0beron » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:03 pm

Responses to some magic-related posts
Lamech wrote:First a two brief defenitions: There are disiplines of magic, such as flower power, date-o-mancy, and sign-a-mancy. Then "Magic"classes of magic, such as Hippiemancy, stuffamancy or naughtymancy. 24 discipline and 8 "Magic" classes of magic. Each "Magic" class has three disciplines.

I'm pretty sure the "Caster" classes are Novice, Adept and Master that we've seen. From Sizemore we know you go straight from Adept to Masterclass.

On this, you're all correct. It's important to note the distinction between "Magic Class" and "Caster Class", since I can imagine some readers being confused by that.

Lamech wrote:Finally from Janice's example it appears a caster can get their hands on a whole class instead of being one discipline. We aren't 100% sure about this (Janice might really just be a florist who is called a hippiemancer), and we don't know how it happens. Some casters might be able to add the other disciplines somehow going from a florist to a hippiemancer, or some casters might simply pop having a whole class.

The upshot of all that is even if a caster reaches say... masterclass florist they might be able to expand all the way to hippiemancer.

First, to the best of my knowledge, we have no evidence of what Janice's discipline is. It's heavily suggested she is a Florist, since that is what she appeared to be attempting to teach to Sizemore. So for all we know, she could be a simple Florist with no ability in the other Hippiemancy disciplines.
Secondly, the ability to cast from other disciplines has only been SHOWN in Wanda, as a natural "born" talent. The fact that Janis was even trying to teach Sizemore suggests that maybe one could learn the talent, but I doubt such a development would be purely level/caster-class based. Of course, Janis may have been teaching him only theory, so he could understand the magic.


MarbitChow wrote:In Vancian systems, the caster has to pick which spells, and how many of each spell, in advance, and often ends up 'wasting' spells if the situation doesn't require them.
Scrolls are almost always 1-shot castings that don't drain the caster, regardless of the magic system.

Ah yes, I think we just misunderstood what the other was posting haha. Yeah, Erfworld magic is not Vancian. We simply got to read about Wanda forgetting the spell after she cast it so we could "experience" the 1-shot effect of a scroll from a caster's perspective.


Mrtyuh wrote:
Whispri wrote:Victory! And a level Five City to boot.

We don't know that it's a Level 5. A side does not need Dirtamancy to level a city, it merely needs money in the treasury. Dirtamancy merely makes the upgrade cheaper and better. Goodminton did not need the scroll to upgrade, just to improve. We've seen before how a city's level does not directly equate to its strength.

So, Goodminton may have only used the scroll to improve Minnow Tower, rather than upgrade the city. On the other hand, they may have done both.

I would hazard a guess that Dirtamancy is not just limited to improving the quality of an upgrade bought with schmukers. With a powerful enough spell, a full upgrade without schmukers could be possible. Sizemore simply hasn't done this because either 1) he's not high level enough to have the juice for it, and/or 2)GK had schmuckers to spare, and needed his juice for other things instead.
Also I imagine that a proper upgrade has to be done at a particular time, whereas the spell can be cast at any point, thus allowing for this element of surprise.
Lamech wrote:Oh, and Sizemore might be better served by enhancing the city. Just keep making the tower bigger and bigger or something.

The fact that Sizemore has NOT been doing this suggests to me that I am right, and that improvements like what Wanda did for the tower can only be done as PART of an overall city upgrade.


Berserkas wrote:Making a note here, i think we can now safely assume that even Healomancers and every other caster class there is have pretty devastating combat spells/abilities.

I mean, it turned out that Hippiemancers, who looked possibly the only type of casters who wouldn't have any combat capabilities whatsoever, actually deal with poisons, a pretty damn dangerous thing (although rations are mostly popped, poisoning food supplies is nigh impossible, but you can still cause real damage with them, as shown by Tommy's death. :| )

Erfworld is all about combat, and if it doesn't deal with combat, it's nearly meaningless. We are reminded of that with Olive Branche's/Delphie's examples...

It's not a stretch at all to apply Healomancers to combat. They HEAL....how much more warfare-related can you get than a Combat Medic? LOL
And as for Hippiemancers, even before we saw the poison, we knew of their power in Combat. The ability to "scare" off a Caster, or to prevent all combat engagements are both examples of the tactical side of warfare. Because that's what Erfworld is about. Not combat, but rather the entire scope of warfare.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby 0beron » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:10 pm

Aquillion wrote:
0beron wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that Delphi is WRONG? (not trying to challenge you, it just occurred to me as a possibility)
Could she have misinterpreted? Could her flawed prediction in of itself be part of Wanda's fate?

Also another thought occurs...is it possible FAQ eventually captures/acquires both Wanda AND Olive, then given their known attitude toward peace, appoint Olive as the Chief?

In either event, Wanda's success right now and apparent "defeat" of Fate could in fact be part of Fate's plan.

No. Look at Wanda's philosophy in the main comic: Fighting fate is useless and painful; it's better to submit to it.

She wouldn't have that philosophy if her backstory included a major failing of a dramatic prophecy like that, or if she had benefited from trying to fight her destiny. That means that in the long run, we know that modern-era Wanda believes that she would have been better off accepting Olive's offer.


multilis wrote:I think we have evidence for that but do not know.

We don't know full wording of any prophesy or many of events.

I agree with multilis. Because we don't KNOW what Delphi "knows" or if what she told is even the truth, we can't conclude what Fate has in store for Wanda in this phase of her life.
Delphi may have in fact seen something totally different, and made up what she has said so far in an attempt to alter Fate, and in the process set up pain in her own future. This possibility would still result in Wanda developing the same philosophy, but learning from Delphi's mistakes rather than her own.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby silverblob5 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:35 pm

I don't think Wanda would have such deep-set feelings on the matter simply from watching someone else (Delphi) fight Fate and fail. That degree of bitterness comes from personal experience.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby 0beron » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:55 pm

True, but Delphi's actions may have an effect on her as well. It is Erfworld after all, any amount of plot-twisting is not only possible, but probable haha
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Xorbon » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:44 pm

I enjoyed the artwork at the end of this update. Clay is a little pudgier than I thought he would be, as I was expecting an "Andrew 'Dice' Clay" look. I like how Goodminton's crest is a badminton birdie with a halo.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Whispri » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:35 am

Mrtyuh wrote:
Whispri wrote:Victory! And a level Five City to boot.
We don't know that it's a Level 5. A side does not need Dirtamancy to level a city, it merely needs money in the treasury. Dirtamancy merely makes the upgrade cheaper and better. Goodminton did not need the scroll to upgrade, just to improve. We've seen before how a city's level does not directly equate to its strength. Gobwin Know is Level 5, but it is theoretically equal to a Level 8. Transylvito is a Level 4 but stronger than many Level 5 cities. Kiloton is a Level 4, but it is Haffaton's second largest production center, even though Haffaton has 2 Level 5 cities. So, Goodminton may have only used the scroll to improve Minnow Tower, rather than upgrade the city. On the other hand, they may have done both.

It's possible it's an as yet unspoken of mechanic, but no mention has been made of improving a City without increasing it's level. While Dirt magic may not be needed to upgrade a City, it helps. And lowers the cost. Indeed, the scroll's price tag may have included the entirety of that cost, material component style. Note that in the future era, Sizemore will be flying out to rebuild Cities Wanda burns to the ground, not to improve the ones she decides to keep. This really does suggest he can't improve them without Levelling them. Maybe not even that, if the Sites in question have some sort of hard Level limit.

Gobwin Knob's bonuses are related to it being a Volcano lair. The Kiloton thing is most likely an example of what is known as 'poor intelligence'. Even if not, it may be that a City is dedicated to producing aninals for food, or pumping out sprogs for the Ruler. Translyvito pays for it's strength with a pitiful wall, hoping never to meet a Hannibal Expy. In fact, the weak wall was specifically called out as the reason the City was only Level 4. Strengthen that wall and it would therefore become a 5. Sounds rather reminiscent of what happened here does it not?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Zeku » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:41 am

Something tells me that there is no such thing as a "type of caster," and a person is popped with arbitrary degrees of magical affinity, and names themselves accordingly.

Since casters pop without visiting the magic kingdom, we know it's not a type of degree or certification.

Concerning Olive, I avoided stating the obvious, but I suppose it doesn't hurt. Wanda may herself be the catalyst of every event, keeping Olive as her leader after uncroaking nearly everyone on both sides of the conflict, including Olive and her own family.

I'll go really far out on a limb here and state that the potentially "deterministic" nature of Predictamancy (ie it happens because someone said it would happen) means there could be a motivating factor behind the entire school, ie a person, a high ranking predictamancer, giving orders. This would explain how a blowhard like Delphie had the initial confidence to treat Wanda as a cog in her machine, as well as the nuttiness of the Minds that Think Alike. We know that predictamancy involves actual predicting, but a high level prophet would be exactly the sort of person who wouldn't be satisfied with the predicted outcome they witnessed. If we assume that Stanley's Arkenhammer is a form of Carnymancy, (or Changemancy? I don't agree with this) then that would mean all 3 arkentools function on the fate axis and would mean that the predictamancers could also have their own arkentool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Whispri » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:49 am

Zeku wrote:Something tells me that there is no such thing as a "type of caster," and a person is popped with arbitrary degrees of magical affinity, and names themselves accordingly.

Since casters pop without visiting the magic kingdom, we know it's not a type of degree or certification.

Concerning Olive, I avoided stating the obvious, but I suppose it doesn't hurt. Wanda may herself be the catalyst of every event, keeping Olive as her leader after uncroaking nearly everyone on both sides of the conflict, including Olive and her own family.

I'll go really far out on a limb here and state that the potentially "deterministic" nature of Predictamancy (ie it happens because someone said it would happen) means there could be a motivating factor behind the entire school, ie a person, a high ranking predictamancer, giving orders. This would explain how a blowhard like Delphie had the initial confidence to treat Wanda as a cog in her machine, as well as the nuttiness of the Minds that Think Alike. We know that predictamancy involves actual predicting, but a high level prophet would be exactly the sort of person who wouldn't be satisfied with the predicted outcome they witnessed. If we assume that Stanley's Arkenhammer is a form of Carnymancy, (or Changemancy? I don't agree with this) then that would mean all 3 arkentools function on the fate axis and would mean that the predictamancers could also have their own arkentool.

The Hammer can change nuts to birds and birds to nuts. That would be the Change magic. 'Tis a cross magic Tool, like Wanda.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Zeku » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:26 am

Please don't quote the entire post only to state something really painfully obvious. Contribute, or say nothing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Goshen » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:38 pm

I recall that the Jedi in the Star-Wars-Verse derive much of their effectiveness from a fairly reliable precognition just a few seconds ahead.

Great update. And it shows once again that winning battles in ErfWorld hinges on manipulating the bonuses. A lot of games work that way, and often look unbalanced at first glance, but are not. A simple example is the very old game Cosmic Encounter.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Berserkas » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:35 pm

Zeku wrote:Please don't quote the entire post only to state something really painfully obvious. Contribute, or say nothing.


Please don't say something is something in one post then say it's painfully obvious something is not something in the other.

The Hammer has already been explained "as a whole mess of magics." Changemancy included. http://www.erfworld.com/category/book-2 ... s/page/12/
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Lamech » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:38 pm

Yeah, its got rhyme-o-mancy, shockamancy for sure. Wierdomancy from flying probably. Change-o-mancy of pigeons, the date-o-mancy of the dwagon taming. That comes to two fate magic two numbers and one erf. The hammer is most certainly not simply along the fate axis.

Oh and I suspect one thing Stanley stands to discover (and probably will because it gives himself something to do) project himself through dragons like Charlie does with his archons. Worse case scenario for team-not-GK is he can share powers with dwagons like Charlie can.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby 0beron » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:30 pm

Lamech wrote:Oh and I suspect one thing Stanley stands to discover (and probably will because it gives himself something to do) project himself through dragons like Charlie does with his archons. Worse case scenario for team-not-GK is he can share powers with dwagons like Charlie can.


Charlie cannot "project" through Archons...he uses Thinkamancy to communicate with them, and the Archons in his tower manage the connection when, "clients" contact him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby doran » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:13 am

One thing we have learned, is that Predictamancer can do two types of prophecy - a factual one that will always come true, and an if based one - e.g. I'm planning to shoot now, if I do, will I make it? If not, then you can still not try, as opposed to having to try knowing you'll fail.

If anyone's read Brander Sanderson's Mistborn, then the combat 'if' prophecy of Predictamancers seems similar to burning atium (allowing you to see the actions of others a few seconds into the future), but even better as you can actually view the success of your own actions as well. I guess in that case its like burning electrum as well. (allows you to view your own future actions)

I wonder if two Predictamancy using casters faceoff, the effect would be like two Mistborn burning atium - the future each see's get's split up into many different possibilities, as each in turn reacts to the other changing their mind based on what they can view.

In the same series, a way was developed to beat precognitive magic users - attack, and watch the users reaction to defense or dodge, and change your action accordingly - if you have faster reflexes than them, then they should see the future split based on their actions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Kaed » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:41 am

Berserkas wrote: (although rations are mostly popped, poisoning food supplies is nigh impossible, but you can still cause real damage with them, as shown by Tommy's death. :| )


You don't know that. Maybe there's a Florist spell that causes an opposing stack/side's next rations popped to be poisoned. I don't expect the poison would be as strong as what killed Tommy, but definitely perhaps enough to weaken the enemy and making winning the battle more easy.

On the other hand, maybe the act of poisoning someone can only be done while entertaining another side 'peacefully', while providing them with rations, or by tipping your own unit's weapons with it. Perhaps the use of poison in Erfworld is by definition act act of betrayal. We don't really know enough to make assumptions yet. xD
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby drachefly » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:54 am

doran wrote:One thing we have learned, is that Predictamancer can do two types of prophecy - a factual one that will always come true, and an if based one - e.g. I'm planning to shoot now, if I do, will I make it? If not, then you can still not try, as opposed to having to try knowing you'll fail.



Well, she could be speaking approximately, but instead has been doing something rather more complicated but not intrinsically conditional - something like, oh...

"Given my intention not to take a shot I'll miss, show me what my next shot looks like."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby Housellama » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:19 pm

drachefly wrote:
doran wrote:One thing we have learned, is that Predictamancer can do two types of prophecy - a factual one that will always come true, and an if based one - e.g. I'm planning to shoot now, if I do, will I make it? If not, then you can still not try, as opposed to having to try knowing you'll fail.


Well, she could be speaking approximately, but instead has been doing something rather more complicated but not intrinsically conditional - something like, oh...

"Given my intention not to take a shot I'll miss, show me what my next shot looks like."


Ehh. That's possible, but the wording makes that interpretation a bit iffy.

Somewhere in those notes in her satchel, there was a brief explanation of how Predictamancy worked in combat. It amounted to the caster using her juice to see things happen a second or two ahead, so that she could aim where the enemy would be, and to move where the enemy's return blows and arrows would not land.

Most importantly to this plan, a Predictamancer could know whether or not a shot or blow she was about to initiate would be a hit. If it wouldn't, then she simply did not take the shot.
Emphasis theirs.

Here's the thing. Given what we have been told about combat Predictamancy, she's actually looking into the future for information, by "a second or two". This wording also implies that she could do this for any given shot. If she's going to miss every shot in a battle and she says "What's my next shot look like?", she has to be able to see a long time in advance to Predict that shot correctly. Not a couple of seconds.

The simplest explanation is that she looks forward a second or two to see her future self take the shot and either hit or miss. It's not Mathamancy, calculating odds. She's actually seeing the future, or at least A future. We've always assumed that all Predictamancy is 100% accurate and Predictions couldn't be avoided. But if this is true and she's seeing her future self miss a particular shot, when her present self decides not to take that particular shot she's changing the outcome that she saw. To do otherwise violates the "a second or two" that was given in the text. This necessarily means that Predictamancy isn't 100% accurate. By choosing not to take that particular shot that she saw herself miss in the future, she makes that future outcome that she 'predicted' impossible. This means that the future as seen by Predictamancy can be changed. That Predictamancy necessarily cannot be 100% accurate.

Now, it's possible that this is only how combat Predictamancy works, but once you let the possible futures genie out of the lamp, you can't put it back in. It's demonstrable that Fate can be changed. Fate is Fate. If you change it once, then it's not Fate anymore. It's Fate, maybe.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020

Postby drachefly » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:33 pm

There are other possible wordings which would be more canny. I grant that it's very suggestive of conditional fate, but she could be dumbing it down for the non-predictamancers.
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