Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 022

[0beron]

It also makes some sense given that Wanda is described as being beautiful in erfworld terms, and also the taboo allure of her being a Croakamancer. And really, she's not the TOTAL nexus of affection, I mean really she's only had connections to Jill, Olive, Clay, and to a limited extent Ansom (although this is affected by an Arkentool, so I count it slightly lower). Over the course of a lifetime, 3 "serious" romantic involvements really isn't saying much.

[Raza]

If you count Clay you should also count Larry.

Anyway, it's not exactly unrealistic. Pretty, successful people attract interest the same way IRL. If anything, we should reasonably see more of this in Erfworld, since relatively few unit types come with distinctive looks and personalities, and the lack of aging means that a greater percentage of leaders and otherwise spotlighted people maintain broad visual appeal.

[0beron]

Ah yes very true, I forgot Larry.

[Housellama]

it strains my credulity when a character becomes a nexus of affection.

Yes and no. I definitely know real people who qualify - having had several interested parties at once, if not everyone.

If you count Clay you should also count Larry.

Anyway, it's not exactly unrealistic. Pretty, successful people attract interest the same way IRL. If anything, we should reasonably see more of this in Erfworld, since relatively few unit types come with distinctive looks and personalities, and the lack of aging means that a greater percentage of leaders and otherwise spotlighted people maintain broad visual appeal.

/Agree with both of these. Even more so when you throw in the lack of complications normally involved with sex (eg. pregnancy, diseases, etc.) With as many people who take the chance in Stupidworld knowing the consequences, I can't understand why it wouldn't be even more prevalent in an environment where those risks don't exist.

But that's sex. Sex and love are two very different things. Besides, Wanda isn't the only nexus. Jillian is a huge nexus as well. Besides Wanda and Ansom, there's also Jack and Vinnie and who knows how many others we haven't seen. The connection? They are both pretty, they are both strong, both in terms of personality and ability, they are both confident and they both hold positions of power. All of these are major attractors in Stupidworld as well. I don't find it unrealistic at all that people are falling for them. Let's face it, Wanda has her fans among the forumites. Jillian as well, although not nearly as many.

[Housellama]

On a different subject, it's nice to hear an Erfworlder's point of view on Free Will. Especially someone who is in a position to have such a great view of the situation.

This is also the first time (iirc) that an Erfworlder has mentioned free will directly. That Wanda is the one that's asking just makes it all the more interesting to me.

I'm also gratified to see such a great mechanic for Fate/Luck/Free Will. Clay's explanation makes perfect sense to me. It also completely validates Wanda's fatalistic viewpoint. As she said, you will always get to where Fate wants you to be eventually. Might as well choose to take the easiest path.

[Amado]

Might as well choose to take the easiest path.

Or, the one that seems most right to you. I don't hazard opinions as to what may be "moral" in Erfworld, nor what may weigh heavily on a moral Erfworldian's conscience. But if a path to meeting my Predicted Fate opened up that involved say, giving up my principles, or hurting those I love... I hope I'd hold out for another path.

[Neko]

I'm also gratified to see such a great mechanic for Fate/Luck/Free Will. Clay's explanation makes perfect sense to me.

It seems like there's also a bit on natural Mathamancy involved -

Clay: "...the sum of your choices will always add up to the same outcome, eventually."
Opening Chapter Narration: "Life is all Numbers. Ask any Mathamancer; they know. To live is to stand on one side of an equation, which must equal zero in the end...Each discipline of magic has its own special insight into cosmic truths. Few casters doubted what was said of the Numbers Axis, but even fewer understood."

So it seems that if the Numbers Axis dictates that all equations must equal zero, perhaps the Fate Axis dictates that all equations equal...something? The future of a particular unit? Wouldn't it be interesting if between the sum of the Fate Axis, the Numbers Axis, and the Erf Axis - with all the pieces of the equation being every living being that has ever existed or ever will exist in Erfwold - must equal zero...

Now I'd really like to hear more about Erf Axis theory. I find it interesting that Luckamancy is part of the Erf Axis, and all the descriptions we've had from Clay tell us that the disciplne allows blatant manipulation of the Numbers Axis (the "dice") with the restraining elements being both "borrowing" numbers from your own side (netting zero) as well as the eventual Fate Axis outcome balancing the competitive advantage a unit is trying to achieve for it's own side. So maybe the longer a unit/side attempts to move away from it's Fated outcome, the greater a balance builds up on the Numbers Axis, which must be paid in terms of Erf (whatever Erf is).

Please check my logic on this - it was written rather stream of conciousness.

[Kidrik]

it strains my credulity when a character becomes a nexus of affection.

Yes and no. I definitely know real people who qualify - having had several interested parties at once, if not everyone.

This. It may not have always been "love" but rather lust--but there is a woman I know who has had upwards of seven mutual friends interested in her--I just happened to be more interested in her roommate myself at the time. =P

[Raza]

I'm also gratified to see such a great mechanic for Fate/Luck/Free Will. Clay's explanation makes perfect sense to me. It also completely validates Wanda's fatalistic viewpoint. As she said, you will always get to where Fate wants you to be eventually. Might as well choose to take the easiest path.

On fate, yes. On suffering, not so much.

If you know you have a fate that you'll end up at regardless of what you do, the logical thing to do is aim to make it happen under the most favorable possible conditions: you either plan for a specific set of events to lead to a desirable manifestation of it, or continue making decisions based on the same values as you would have otherwise for the same reasons you would have otherwise on the assumption that their merit continues to apply to everything you can affect.

Wanda seeks out neither the most pleasant paths towards fate nor the most favorable manifestations of it; instead, she pursues what she thinks is the quickest way to get there, on what seems to be the assumption that the longer you go between 'fate checkpoints', the more unpleasant life gets, regardless of all the other mechanics involved. The latter assumption remains unjustified, even loses some credibility with this explanation: if out of all things that might affect your life, only fate checkpoints are unchangeable, it makes sense to focus on everything except those - which is the opposite of what Wanda is doing when she denies herself love interests and personal comfort in a mad rush for compliance.

[Amado]

Might as well choose to take the easiest path.

Wanda seeks out neither the most pleasant paths towards fate nor the most favorable manifestations of it; instead, she pursues what she thinks is the quickest way to get there, on what seems to be the assumption that the longer you go between 'fate checkpoints', the more unpleasant life gets, regardless of all the other mechanics involved. The latter assumption remains unjustified, even loses some credibility with this explanation: if out of all things that might affect your life, only fate checkpoints are unchangeable, it makes sense to focus on everything except those - which is the opposite of what Wanda is doing when she denies herself love interests and personal comfort in a mad rush for compliance.

plus one.

emphatically.

[Mrtyuh]

If you count Clay you should also count Larry.

We should also include the Haffaton hopefuls at Kiloton, and Marie has been implied to be carrying a torch as well. In the first month of her life, Wanda has had a large percentage of non-subordinate units she's encountered express a desire for her.

/Agree with both of these. Even more so when you throw in the lack of complications normally involved with sex (eg. pregnancy, diseases, etc.) With as many people who take the chance in Stupidworld knowing the consequences, I can't understand why it wouldn't be even more prevalent in an environment where those risks don't exist.

On the other hand, in Erfworld, a commander can simply order a subordinate unit to relieve any sexual frustration they may be feeling. Without child rearing, there isn't much impetus to bond with an indiviual and fall in love. While there may be a more general openness, there seems to be less reason to focus on a particualar individual or have a long-term relationship.

Anyway, I'll admit this is a knee-jerk reaction on my part. There are, for me, two issues here. The first is the credibility issue. I have never experienced or witnessed this type of thing, so I find it incredible. Others state it falls within the realm of their experience, so I'll concede the point. The second issue is the narrative issue. I find this type of thing is a crutch used by many poor authors, not that I am accusing Rob of being one. It is a case of showing versus telling. An author will have copious characters fall in love with the protagonist, as if to say, "see how great the protagonist is; everyone loves the protagonist." The same issue applies if the author tell us the protagonist is a brilliant, ruthless business person who is adroit at manipulating others. If, later, we see said manipulation to be shallow or poorly written, it feels like the author is trying to shove their interpretation down my throat. If they can't get me to accept it by showing it, I won't buy it just because they tell me. If having multiple characters fall for Wanda ends up significantly serving the narrative, I'll be able to accept it. If it exists solely for cheap drama, I won't. If they serve the narrative in ways that could have been accomplished differently, I'll find it boring and repetitive.

Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) - Episode 004

But she knew this much about herself: to be Lady Wanda Firebaugh was not to fear, but to execute.

Erfworld: Love is a Battlefield - Text 20

Wanda thought she had found her path over the last few score turns. But the fact that things were going so badly now indicated that she had strayed from her true course somehow. The old, familiar pains in her head and chest and stomach had returned all at once.

Erfworld: Love is a Battlefield - Page 70

"Lord Parson is Fate's special instrument. Proceeding without him would be a mistake. It would only make the way much harder."

While Wanda's beliefs may be based on what Delphie and Clay have told her, they have also been tempered by her own experience. From what we've been shown, she suffers from an anxiety disorder. When she is not following Fate's path, she suffers a panic attack. That is why she choses the quickest way back to the path, because the path is the only relief. Also, the locus of her identity has shifted completely outside herself. She is constantly seeking reassurance from others. She seeks Fate's reassurance she's on the right path. She seeks Jillian reassurance that she loves her best. She seeks Parson's reassurance that she's doing the right thing. She doesn't get any positive reinforcement from within herself. She doesn't pursue anything for herself. She is consumed by fear and uncertainty. She doesn't try to find another way, because she fears losing Fate's path. She doesn't try to make the choices that make lead to her happiness, because she fears the other shoe dropping. She doesn't try to find a better way, because she's afraid of failing. I agree with Jack's assessment; Wanda is broken. Book 0 is about watching her break. Of course, what do I know.

[PhantomFox]

So, assuming Wanda has character growth once we get back to the 'present' storyline, what will break her free of her deterministic philosophy? Or at least modify it enough so she's not as cold. Any bets on trickily worded Fates?

[Raza]

If you count Clay you should also count Larry.

We should also include the Haffaton hopefuls at Kiloton, and Marie has been implied to be carrying a torch as well. In the first month of her life, Wanda has had a large percentage of non-subordinate units she's encountered express a desire for her.

Weren't we talking about love, specifically? The difference between that and sexual attraction seems well defined in Erfworld, perhaps moreso than it is IRL.

Anyway, I'll admit this is a knee-jerk reaction on my part. There are, for me, two issues here. The first is the credibility issue. I have never experienced or witnessed this type of thing, so I find it incredible. Others state it falls within the realm of their experience, so I'll concede the point. The second issue is the narrative issue. I find this type of thing is a crutch used by many poor authors, not that I am accusing Rob of being one. It is a case of showing versus telling. An author will have copious characters fall in love with the protagonist, as if to say, "see how great the protagonist is; everyone loves the protagonist." The same issue applies if the author tell us the protagonist is a brilliant, ruthless business person who is adroit at manipulating others. If, later, we see said manipulation to be shallow or poorly written, it feels like the author is trying to shove their interpretation down my throat. If they can't get me to accept it by showing it, I won't buy it just because they tell me. If having multiple characters fall for Wanda ends up significantly serving the narrative, I'll be able to accept it. If it exists solely for cheap drama, I won't. If they serve the narrative in ways that could have been accomplished differently, I'll find it boring and repetitive.

I concede on the Show, Don't Tell thing. Rob tends to build his characters with Show and Tell, and while that's a perfectly legitimate approach, it sets off false 'poor writing' alarms in my head now and then, as well.

Still, how do you write romantic attractiveness? The process of falling in love rarely makes sense to anyone but the person experiencing it. Admissions like Clay's and obvious signals like Larry's are commonly the first thing you notice when someone has developed a crush IRL, too. Writing clever manipulations seems easy by comparison.

While Wanda's beliefs may be based on what Delphie and Clay have told her, they have also been tempered by her own experience. From what we've been shown, she suffers from an anxiety disorder. When she is not following Fate's path, she suffers a panic attack. That is why she chose the quickest way back to the path, because the path is the only relief. Also, the locus of her identity has shifted completely outside herself. She is constantly seeking reassurance from others. She seeks Fate's reassurance she's on the right path. She seeks Jillian reassurance that she loves her best. She seeks Parson's reassurance that she's doing the right thing. She doesn't get any positive reinforcement from within herself. She doesn't pursue anything for herself. She is consumed by fear and uncertainty. She doesn't try to find another way, because she fears losing Fate's path. She doesn't try to make the choices that make lead to her happiness, because she fears the other shoe dropping. She doesn't try to find a better way, because she's afraid of failing. I agree with Jack's assessment; Wanda is broken. Book 0 is about watching her break. Of course, what do I know.

Interesting analysis. Her physical symptoms indicate anxiety, certainly, and you bring up good points on the way she seeks external validation. But wouldn't anxiety disorder leave her less capable of decisive action? The statement "to be Lady Wanda Firebaugh was not to fear, but to execute." remains true for the Wanda we know from books one and two. She dives into combat without hesitation, risks her life on split-second decisions and uses valuable and limited side resources on her own best judgment with apparent confidence.

Could be that that's the unique psychology of Orders and Duty at work, though. Erfworlders may not get to be dysfunctional in anything but their personal emotional lives. Still, it seems a stretch that her competencies wouldn't be affected at all... we've seen personality play a role in those before.

[jkosta]

On the subject of "everyone loves Wanda", can I just point out that female characters are rare as desert snowballs in Book 0?

There's Wanda, who is our ignorantly beautiful protagonist.
There's Olive, who is our mysterious, seductively beautiful villainesque and also an established nexus of affection off screen.
...and Delphie. Who is decaying.

[drachefly]

On the male end, we have... Tommy, the king, Larry, Fritz, and Clay.

5 to 3. One off from even representation.

Throw in Jack and Marie, and we're at 6 to 4.

Sorry, I don't see it. We're way short on female warlords; on the other hand, we're short on warlords in general.

[Whispri]

On the male end, we have... Tommy, the king, Larry, Fritz, and Clay.

5 to 3. One off from even representation.

Throw in Jack and Marie, and we're at 6 to 4.

Sorry, I don't see it. We're way short on female warlords; on the other hand, we're short on warlords in general.

You're forgetting Mack Ramay and Rex Cakes, at the time of Tommy's death Goodminton's command staff consisted of six male commanders and two female commanders, that's three to one. They had only two female knights in the band that rode forth to retake Goodfinger, so there's an imbalance there as well.

As for the enemy, Larry, combined with the Warlord Wanda uncroaked just prior to assaulting Goodfinger, means the flowergirl is (or was) outnumbered two to one as far as known gendered officers go. I believe the only Frenemy Warlord mentioned by gender was male, so that's three to one again.

The boop and Marie don't count, as only Wanda has met them and even then only in passing, I doubt anyone in Haffaton or Goodfinger is going to be lusting after either of them any time soon.

So yeah, a tally of those officers and Rulers encountered in the Battlespace, deceased or otherwise, leaves a ratio of three known males for every known female.

[Mrtyuh]

Weren't we talking about love, specifically? The difference between that and sexual attraction seems well defined in Erfworld, perhaps moreso than it is IRL.

Once again, there were a few different issues going on here. While we were discussing love, some of the other statements in the thread seemed to be addressing desire, so I was going for two birds with one stone. My posts do have a tendancy to run away with me and end up being quite verbose. I'm starting to feel like one of the spambots on the forum. So, I was trying to be concise. Also, in some of these instances, it is hard, with the information we currently have, to distinguish between the two. For example, take Wanda's feeling for Jillian. If Rob stated, "Yes, Wanda love Jillian," I would have no problem accepting it. If Rob stated, "No, Wanda does not love Jillian, she simply has a sense of ownership, like with the Decrypted," I would still have no problem accepting it because I find both interpretations valid at this point. We are using Larry as an example of someone who loved Wanda, but he may be synonomous with a guy who showers a girl with attention but loses all interest once he's gotten her in bed. Larry may have simply had an overpowering desire for Wanda; without being able to get into his head, there is no way to know for sure. Outwardly, his behavior wasn't much different from the other Haffaton hopefuls. The final issue is that the forum ate my first reply, which annoyed me. In my rush to try to remember everything I wrote the first time, I cut corners the second, especially in my use of quotes.

Still, how do you write romantic attractiveness? The process of falling in love rarely makes sense to anyone but the person experiencing it. Admissions like Clay's and obvious signals like Larry's are commonly the first thing you notice when someone has developed a crush IRL, too. Writing clever manipulations seems easy by comparison.

Let me preface this by stating this is my personal preference. I don't think an author should describe a character as "attractive." They may note stiking eyes or graceful movements, but leave subjective judgements out of it. They should leave it to the reader to decide how attractive the character is. If expressing one characters opinion of another, it is fine to have them think the other is attractive, but I think it tells more about what the first character finds attractive than how attractive the second character actually is.

As for writing attraction, I don't have a problem with it. I think Olive's attraction is completely justifiable given their fateful connection. I think Jillian's attraction is completely justifiable given their complamentary sexual interests. I found the Haffaton hopefuls' attraction justifiable given they're a bunch of inebriated dudes at a party, even if I found their approach distasteful. I can even find Larry justifiable. Love is an important theme in Erfworld; it needs to be addressed. Larry's unrequited desire was part of Wanda starting to explore the concept. His rashness in attempting to claim Wanda is what allowed her to escape. I don't have a problem with any of that. It is simply that it has reached a tipping point for me. There is Marie. I have justified Marie with a theory that Wanda seduced her in order to mess up Marie's Predictions, get Jack to the wrong city and allow Stanley's attack. If Marie's feeling for Wanda are a lie caused by Wanda's manipulation, I think that's fine. Clay is my real sticking point. If his love exists just to cause more friction between Wanda and Delphie, that's cheap drama. If his love exists just so we can learn love messes with the dice, I think that concept could have been introduced in a different way.

Interesting analysis. Her physical symptoms indicate anxiety, certainly, and you bring up good points on the way she seeks external validation. But wouldn't anxiety disorder leave her less capable of decisive action? The statement "to be Lady Wanda Firebaugh was not to fear, but to execute." remains true for the Wanda we know from books one and two. She dives into combat without hesitation, risks her life on split-second decisions and uses valuable and limited side resources on her own best judgment with apparent confidence.

Could be that that's the unique psychology of Orders and Duty at work, though. Erfworlders may not get to be dysfunctional in anything but their personal emotional lives. Still, it seems a stretch that her competencies wouldn't be affected at all... we've seen personality play a role in those before.

Someone with agoraphobia can make the decisive choice to go inside. I think most of Wanda's choices can be seen in that light. It seems Wanda may have had some knowledge of the Predictamancer-Hippiemancer Conspiracy to Summon Parson. If she did, her decisiveness with Stanley can be seen as her fulfilling Fate. Wanda has no fear of croaking in combat, since her Fate won't allow it, so her fearlessness in battle is an actual complete lack of fear. Parson is Fate's instrument. Following his orders is following Fate. During the Summer Updates and the beginning of Book 2, Wanda thought she had found Fate's path, which freed her from the anxiety. As mentioned, when in doubt, she takes the action she believes is the most direct route to Fate, like the agoraphobic taking the shortest route to the nearest building. Wanda's anxiety isn't crippling, but it makes her so uncomfortable, she acts to soothe it as quickly as possible. Anyway, that's one interpretation.

[NYbear]

On the subject of "everyone loves Wanda", can I just point out that female characters are rare as desert snowballs in Book 0?

So yeah, a tally of those officers and Rulers encountered in the Battlespace, deceased or otherwise, leaves a ratio of three known males for every known female.

In a world where there is no biological reproduction, why would you assume that there would be a predisposition towards heterosexuality? (as implied by your statements that a high male to female ratio is one possible reason why so many love interests seem to congregate on Wanda and Jillian)

We've already seen at least some bisexuality on the parts of Wanda and Jillian, and in a world where gender means nothing in terms of reproduction (because they don't reproduce sexually), its entirely possible that the breakdown is more like 1/3 heterosexual, 1/3 bisexual and 1/3 homosexual.

If that's the case (big if i know) then men outnumbering women 3-1 is not necessarily a forcing factor that would encourage more relationships with said female characters.

Its our own cultural bias as readers that leads us to assume that sexuality on erf is represented in similar proportions as it is on stupidworld. There is no evidence in the writing to say it isn't similar, but the possibility still exists that it is different as the story elements haven't yet given full description of erf society, social norms, mores, etc.

Can't wait to turn the page and find out! (BTW, awesome webcomic - one of the best i've read in a long while)

[Balerion]

In a world where there is no biological reproduction, why would you assume that there would be a predisposition towards heterosexuality? (as implied by your statements that a high male to female ratio is one possible reason why so many love interests seem to congregate on Wanda and Jillian)

We've already seen at least some bisexuality on the parts of Wanda and Jillian, and in a world where gender means nothing in terms of reproduction (because they don't reproduce sexually), its entirely possible that the breakdown is more like 1/3 heterosexual, 1/3 bisexual and 1/3 homosexual.

If that's the case (big if i know) then men outnumbering women 3-1 is not necessarily a forcing factor that would encourage more relationships with said female characters.

Its our own cultural bias as readers that leads us to assume that sexuality on erf is represented in similar proportions as it is on stupidworld. There is no evidence in the writing to say it isn't similar, but the possibility still exists that it is different as the story elements haven't yet given full description of erf society, social norms, mores, etc.

Can't wait to turn the page and find out! (BTW, awesome webcomic - one of the best i've read in a long while)

While there probably will be an element of that, the main reason to assume otherwise is how much Erf is an echo of our world. For instance, the real question is why there is sex at all if there is no biological reason for it; the best explanation for why it is there is because Erfworld is almost matching something from ours (it's the same as the slaughterhouses, cities etc).

Because of that, I would expect the ratio to be close to the real world, though probably with increases in bisexual and homosexual because sex has no purpose other than love/lust (but not as much as 1/3 splits). But, time will tell

[Goshen]

While there probably will be an element of that, the main reason to assume otherwise is how much Erf is an echo of our world. For instance, the real question is why there is sex at all if there is no biological reason for it; the best explanation for why it is there is because Erfworld is almost matching something from ours (it's the same as the slaughterhouses, cities etc).

Because of that, I would expect the ratio to be close to the real world, though probably with increases in bisexual and homosexual because sex has no purpose other than love/lust (but not as much as 1/3 splits). But, time will tell

I think, more precisely, that Erfword parallels Earth popular fiction, which in my experience has had much less homosexuality than the general population, until (maybe) very recently. Also, romance between women usually shows up first, perhaps because it is less threatening to the people in power, who are still mostly men.