Wanda's new raiment

[LittleGreenSoldier]

I created this account just to say that although I love Erfworld and I love Wanda's new outfit, it is NOT Lolita.

I wear Lolita fashion every day, it is my wardrobe. Wanda's outfit, while stylish, is NOTHING close to Lolita. Please don't ever call it that, it only makes things harder for those of us who have to explain why we're wearing petticoats to everyone we meet.

[Mrtyuh]

Welcome to the board. Hopefully, you'll say a while. I don't speak for Rob, and I am no expert on Lolita fashion, so if what I am about to say is wrong, ignore the ramblings of an ignorant old man. Rob did not claim the outfit was Lolita, though. He claimed it was Gothic Lolita. If I am not mistake, ゴスロリ is a combination of Gothic and ロリータ. The hat is certainly Lolita. The corset and jacket fit within Gothic Lolita. I think the gloves fit within Lolita's Rococo roots. Lolita favors knee socks over boots, but they fit with Gothic fashion. While Lolita fashion started with knee-length skirt with petticoats, I think it has expanded to include both flowing floor length skirts and even slacks. The skirt does seem much more Gothic than Gothic Lolita, though. Also, the chain seems more Gothic Punk. I am much more familiar with Gothic, Gothic Punk and Heavy Metal fashion than Lolita or Gothic Lolita. As I said, I'm certainly no expert, but I think the Wanda's new raiment could safely be classified as Gothic/Lolita, even if it isn't strictly speaking ゴスロリ. Anyway, what do I know? Once again, welcome to the forum.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Thank you for the welcome, and I might stick around.

You're way, way off on Lolita though. Gothic Lolita is still Lolita, it's just a substyle. It is still knee length skirts over petticoats, though longer skirts have become fashionable lately. Slacks are NEVER Lolita, though they may be Boystyle, which is very closely related and is often included in the communities and magazines.

As for the individual elements of Wanda's raiment, most of them could be used successfully in an actual coordinate. The thigh high boots are a definite no go, as is the chemise thing. The gloves would be very difficult, and wearing a corset on the outside is also frowned upon in most cases. Altogether, they make something very stylish and cool, but if Wanda were to post this outfit on a Gothic Lolita community board, she'd be laughed at.

Remember, this is a fashion I wear daily. Rob claimed the outfit was Lolita. Rob is very, VERY wrong.

Edit: I just realized you posted a link. That article is from 2007, when Lolita was still new in the west, and was written by someone outside the fashion. Some of those street snaps they show are even older, and not all are Lolita, gothic or otherwise. I recommend http://hellolace.net/styles/gothic as a better resource.

[Mrtyuh]

I do appreciate that you wear these fashions daily, and you certainly know more than I do. During the nineties, however, I considered myself a goth, and I wore Gothic clothes. My perspective was limited, though. Gothic is a wide spectrum, ranging all the way to borderline BDSM fetishwear. I was in the Gothic Punk neighborhood. I considered Gothic to consist of what I and the people I hung out with wore. If I had met one of the more extreme goths, I would have considered them a freak, but I wouldn't have considered them a goth. And yes, I understand the irony of a goth considering someone freakish. I would have also been wrong. It is certainly possible that your understanding of the full spectrum of your fashion is much broader than mine was back then, but I don't know, so I challenge. If nothing else, I'll learn something new, since this is interesting.

I'll admit that I had never heard of Lolita fashion before Rob's comments, so I did a quick search and read up on it. The first thing I learned is that it comes from Japan, and, much like most modern trends in Japan's 可愛い culture, it is about cuteness. The impression I got was that there was some leeway in the fashion, as long as it was still adorable. Now, I'm taking some things on faith. For all the wonderful things on the Internet, there are alot of things that are just wrong. Still, I'm working under the assumption that items listed as Gothic Lolita are actually Gothic Lolita. I found one corset kimono dress that I think is reminiscent of Wanda's outfit, at least in the bodice and jacket. This cocktail party dress also shares elements with the choker and lacing in front. At 1:34 in this video, I thought she was wearing a corset on the outside, although on reviewing it, it may be a corset dress. On this page, both 10 and 27 appear to be wearing corsets on the outside. 15 is wearing gloves and chemise. Even 18 has a feel similar to Wanda's outfit. Even in the link you provided, here she appears to be wearing a corset and a choker. There is a corset here and here. There are gloves here, here and here. It's funny. I did a quick search a couple of days ago, and I came across the things I linked. It took a lot longer to find them when actually looking for them, and I can't find all the sites I visited.

Anyway, the impression I got from my superficial research was that Wanda's outfit fit. It is possible that the accessories, while acceptable individually, combined render the outfit not Lolita. It is also possible, and likely even, that the Internet led me astray. From the impression I have of ゴスロリ, though, I still think the outfit fits from the waist up. Still, having revisited the pages that I can find, the skirt is wrong and so are the boots. They are both Gothic, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate they'd be Lolita. On the other hand, assuming Lolita fashion maintains a presence in the West and continues to interact with Gothic fashion, I can see Wanda's outfit being considered Gothic Lolita ten years from now. As I said in the beginning, Lolita seems ultimately about cuteness, and Wanda's outfit is certainly a cute Gothic outfit.

[0beron]

I'm not going to debate all the particulars, but simply want to point out that Rob and Xin are creative ARTISTS. They sometimes draw from existing ideas and inspiration, mixing it with their own imagination to create what they envision a character to be like. If they wanted to use Lolita as the starting point, and then take creative license with it, that's their call. It may not exactly fit your specific perception of the style, but there are only so many words in the English language to describe something in a manner that readers beyond fashion experts will understand. We have a drawing now, so I'd say that supersedes the words Rob used to describe it initially.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Still, I'm working under the assumption that items listed as Gothic Lolita are actually Gothic Lolita.

Unfortunately that's the worst thing you can do. There are a lot of things on the internet being sold as Gothic Lolita that are anything but. That punk store you linked to is unfortunately one of those stores selling poor quality goth and punk dresses as Lolita, preying on girls who don't know any better. Much like goths know that Tripp pants are garbage and fall apart, lolitas don't buy from those stores.

And again, most of the street snaps you've been looking at are VERY old, some as old as 2003. The gallery you linked is a gallery of Gothic AND Lolita, and while some of those outfits are Lolita, most are just Gothic.

Anyway, the impression I got from my superficial research was that Wanda's outfit fit. It is possible that the accessories, while acceptable individually, combined render the outfit not Lolita. It is also possible, and likely even, that the Internet led me astray. From the impression I have of ゴスロリ, though, I still think the outfit fits from the waist up. Still, having revisited the pages that I can find, the skirt is wrong and so are the boots. They are both Gothic, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate they'd be Lolita. On the other hand, assuming Lolita fashion maintains a presence in the West and continues to interact with Gothic fashion, I can see Wanda's outfit being considered Gothic Lolita ten years from now. As I said in the beginning, Lolita seems ultimately about cuteness, and Wanda's outfit is certainly a cute Gothic outfit.

It is a cute Gothic outfit, but cuteness alone does not make it Lolita. I appreciate that I may be the only Lolita on this forum (or else the only one bothering to complain) but many many more people read Erfworld, and I'd like to keep them from thinking Wanda's outfit is Lolita, much like your average Goth would take offense at being compared to Emo.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

I'm not going to debate all the particulars, but simply want to point out that Rob and Xin are creative ARTISTS. They sometimes draw from existing ideas and inspiration, mixing it with their own imagination to create what they envision a character to be like. If they wanted to use Lolita as the starting point, and then take creative license with it, that's their call. It may not exactly fit your specific perception of the style, but there are only so many words in the English language to describe something in a manner that readers beyond fashion experts will understand. We have a drawing now, so I'd say that supersedes the words Rob used to describe it initially.

I understand drawing inspiration, and if that is the case I certainly wouldn't object to calling it "Lolita inspired Gothic", or something similar. Calling it Gothic Lolita though (Goth Loli is a VERY outdated term, we don't use it anymore) is just incorrect.

[0beron]

I repeat, words and labels are just that. Rob and Xin's main creative avenue are the VISUAL comics they produce and the associated plot. The words Rob used to describe an outfit in a NEWS post (so not even comic canon material) before he was able to deliver a detailed drawing are pretty trivial. You're nit-picking. In my opinion, it belies your professed love of Erfworld that you would create a forum account JUST to criticize Rob's use of a single word - in a tone that strikingly resembles the cliche hipster sense of superiority in your fashion taste.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but come back and post again when you actually have something more relevant than bashing an artist who is making it a full-time job to deliver content you profess to love.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

I repeat, words and labels are just that. Rob and Xin's main creative avenue are the VISUAL comics they produce and the associated plot. The words Rob used to describe an outfit in a NEWS post (so not even comic canon material) before he was able to deliver a detailed drawing are pretty trivial. You're nit-picking. In my opinion, it belies your professed love of Erfworld that you would create a forum account JUST to criticize Rob's use of a single word - in a tone that strikingly resembles the cliche hipster sense of superiority in your fashion taste.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but come back and post again when you actually have something more relevant than bashing an artist who is making it a full-time job to deliver content you profess to love.

I grant you the nitpicking, I am aware of that.

However, this "belies my professed love of Erfworld"? Pardon me, but where the HELL do you get that impression. I LIKE Wanda's outfit. I've said several times that I think it's cute and stylish, and it certainly suits her. Heck, I'd cosplay it if I could afford another corset. I've never said that the way I dress is superior to anything else, just different. Lolita is a very new fashion, the first advertisements for the earliest brands didn't appear until 2000. So there are a lot of misconceptions on the internet and elsewhere about what is and is not lolita. I could have written an essay, tearing apart Wanda's outfit, but I didn't because I like it and I like the comic; still I'd rather not sit quietly while people misrepresent the fashion I wear every day. If Xin had drawn her in a sari and Rob called it a qipao, it would be the same problem.

[elddonnemar]

Hey guys.

It's meant to be a lolita outfit. That's what Rob asked me to draw. But in my ignorance of fashion of any kind, (seriously left to my own devices I would wear nothing but black and gray T-shirts with jeans, I'm not kidding), I failed to deliver, clearly. I looked up what lolita dresses looked like in general, and tried to use some elements and piece them together until the dress felt like they belonged on Wanda.

I should've done more research on this. Please forgive me.

But can we also blame google? Because there wasn't any other quick resource I could've accessed that would give me the visual information that I needed. I admit that I intentionally left out the frilly skirt thing because it just didn't look right on Wanda. My apologies...

[Mrtyuh]

I'm not going to debate all the particulars, but simply want to point out that Rob and Xin are creative ARTISTS. They sometimes draw from existing ideas and inspiration, mixing it with their own imagination to create what they envision a character to be like. If they wanted to use Lolita as the starting point, and then take creative license with it, that's their call. It may not exactly fit your specific perception of the style, but there are only so many words in the English language to describe something in a manner that readers beyond fashion experts will understand. We have a drawing now, so I'd say that supersedes the words Rob used to describe it initially.

While I agree with your sentiment 0beron about artistic inspiration and freedom, I feel there may be some things you are not considering. First, many posters start their time on a board like this. I read Order of the Stick. I was there when Erfworld first went up. I read it, although it didn't really start sucking me in until around the siege raid. I lurked on the forums there. When Erfworld moved here, I followed and lurked here. I didn't bother to register and post until Tremennis and Jillian were planning attacking Ansom's column. Someone commented that a good tactic would be to dismount knights to assault the close order pikers. I felt I absolutely had point out the fact that, historically, everyone who tried that has failed disasterously. It wasn't even about Erfworld really. On the Goblins forums, I registered to point out to the author himself, Tarol Hunt, that the Latin phrase he used was jibberish and tell him the phrase he really meant. I don't claim to be an expert on Latin, but I did take it for eight years, and have read enough of it to recognize the translation he gave, or at least recognize it as something Augustus said so I could look it up. LittleGreenSoldier is passionate about this. That's nice. A lost of posters get their start by passionately having to say something. I appreciate LittleGreenSoldier passion about Lolita fashion. I appreciate your passion about Erfworld. Still, sometimes passion requires a little patience and understanding.

Secondly, everything after her (given the petticoat comment, I'm assuming it's a her) first post was her trying to patiently answer or counter my questions and assertions. Anything after her first post is due to me jumping into a conversation on a topic on which I had no real knowledge...again.

Anyway, it's ultimately Xin and Rob's reaction that determines the tone. Rob admitted he doesn't know anything about fashion and had to consult with someone else to describe it. He might appreciate having this pointed out, or he may not care. Xin seems to appreciate the input. As long as they aren't offended, there's nothing offensive, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure if this is making any sense. I have a very long day, and I'm probably just digging myself another hole.

Unfortunately that's the worst thing you can do. There are a lot of things on the internet being sold as Gothic Lolita that are anything but. That punk store you linked to is unfortunately one of those stores selling poor quality goth and punk dresses as Lolita, preying on girls who don't know any better. Much like goths know that Tripp pants are garbage and fall apart, lolitas don't buy from those stores.

And again, most of the street snaps you've been looking at are VERY old, some as old as 2003. The gallery you linked is a gallery of Gothic AND Lolita, and while some of those outfits are Lolita, most are just Gothic.

Well, with that I'll have to end this discussion. I may attempt one with superficial knowledge, but I can't carry it on with no knowledge. Anyway, thank you for the information. I found it very interesting. If you had any links or sources you would consider valid, I would be interested in studying the subject further. At the very least, I'll be more aware of the fashion in the future. Once again, welcome to the forums.

Hey guys....

Xin! It's great to see you on the forum. I hope things are...well not good, because how can they be...better...easier? Anyway, I hope things are as good as they can be for you. I suck with words, which may be the reason I apparently feel a need to bludgeon with them. Still, I hope the best for you.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Hey guys.

It's meant to be a lolita outfit. That's what Rob asked me to draw. But in my ignorance of fashion of any kind, (seriously left to my own devices I would wear nothing but black and gray T-shirts with jeans, I'm not kidding), I failed to deliver, clearly. I looked up what lolita dresses looked like in general, and tried to use some elements and piece them together until the dress felt like they belonged on Wanda.

I should've done more research on this. Please forgive me.

But can we also blame google? Because there wasn't any other quick resource I could've accessed that would give me the visual information that I needed. I admit that I intentionally left out the frilly skirt thing because it just didn't look right on Wanda. My apologies...

Hi Xin! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!

I can certainly understand getting led astray by Google, it honestly happens to most people who try to look up Lolita. That's why the LiveJournal community has entire subcomms dedicated to helping newbies sort through all the outdated, misleading, and just plain wrong information out there. (The absolute worst is the people who claim it's related to the Nabokov book)

I agree, Wanda just wouldn't look right in actual Lolita. It's an extremely modest fashion, it's actually been compared to punk in that part of the movement behind it is about rejecting beauty and fashion standards set by men. Wanda, on the other hand, just isn't Wanda unless she's wielding her sexuality like a weapon. The oufit you created for her is cute, sexy, and totally her, and I can definitely see where you drew from elements of old school Lolita. I love it, and I hope you get to design more outfits for her!

Well, with that ...

Of course, it's my pleasure. I was a Goth in the late 90s and early 2000s, I went from Goth, to Punk Lolita, to where I am now in Classic Lolita. So I know where you're coming from with Goth, at least enough to know the different styles of Goth and that Tripp pants aren't worth the cheap plated studs on the pockets.

If you'd really like to know more about Lolita, http://egl.livejournal.com/ is the main international comm, with links to a whole bunch of awesome information. http://lolita-handbook.livejournal.com/ is also a pretty good resource, it's a bit outdated, but the information is broad enough that most of it still applies. http://fyeahlolita.blogspot.com/ is a very popular Lolita blog, I definitely recommend this article as an illustration of some of my problems with Wanda's outfit specifically.

And yes, I am a woman. I made my first Lolita outfit in 2005, it was definitely pretty horrendous. The shape was there, but I had never made a skirt by hand before, so... Thankfully I've gotten much better at coordinating over the years, my last purchase was this dress in blue: http://innocent-w.jp/shopping/113610/index_e.html

[drachefly]

(The absolute worst is the people who claim it's related to the Nabokov book)

...

It seems an extreme stretch to assert that there's no etymological connection at ALL.

[Mrtyuh]

It seems an extreme stretch to assert that there's no etymological connection at ALL.

You just had to say something to which I think I have the answer.

I would argue that Lolita is etymologically linked to the Nabokov book. From the book comes the term Lolita complex. This term entered Japanese as ロリータコンプレックス, rorīta konpurekkusu. In a shortened form ロリコン, rorikon, this came to refer a genre which depicted young girls, often in a erotic manner. ロリコン came back to English as lolicon. From this, ロリ, or loli in English, came to refer to girls. Now, something very important to remember is that Japanese culture and language is very different from Western cultures and languages. The Japanese have different words which translate roughly as girl, e.g. 女の子, 女子 or 少女, which all vary in usage and connotation. 少女, shōjo, can refer to girls, but it can also refer to girlhood. It can refer to a state where a person has not yet assumed the responsibilities and duties of adulthood, and this is indepentant of age. If you haven't gotten married and had children, if you haven't gotten a job and work for your livelihood, you are a girl. A shōjo can be someone who hasn't started acting like an "adult". In this context, Paris Hilton would be a girl. Another aspect of Japanese culture is sexual connotations. In Japan, there is a genre called 美少女, bishōjo, which translates as beautiful girl. The unifying principle of this genre is that the central characters are girls. This ranges from stories like Little Women to romances to what we refer to in English as hentai. Now, I say "what we refer to in English as," because I once got a lecture from a person from Japan for using the term to refer to it. In Japanese, it means pervert, it is considered very rude, and it is inappropriate to use it to refer to the genre. Sorry for the tangent, but when I leave out details like that, they have a habit of coming back to bite me. Anyway, to the Japanese, these are all the same genre. While a bishōjo work may have erotic content, it can just as easily not. While a word may have a sexual connotation, it also may not. So, loli and Lolita, in Japanese refers to a girl, but it does not have the hard-wired sexual connotation it has in English.

From here, I'm moving more into the realm of speculation, and I welcome LittleGreenSoldier, or anyone else, to correct me. Lolita draws its inspiration from the Victorian fashion worn by girls. More specifically, it draws its inspiration from the clothing of dolls of the era. Dolls are the ultimate representation of girlhood. They are something you play with as a child, but you put them away when you become an adult. Lolita fashion is about rejecting society's expectations. It rejects expectations of beauty; it rejects expectations of responsiblity; it rejects expectations of growing up. It is about being a girl. So, etymologically, Lolita is derived from the book, but Lolita fashion has nothing to do with the subject matter of the book. Of course, I may be, and probably am, completely wrong.

If you'd really like to know more about Lolita....

Thanks for the links. I've only had time to go through about half of them, but, so far, it has been a very interesting read. I like the dress you bought. It's very cute. I hope you get a lot of use out of it. Also, have you ever tried any Wa-loli outfits? I think kimono's are beautiful, and I've seen many kimono-inspired dresses that I thought were stunning. Of course, I've seen many kimono-inspired dresses that I did not find appealing. Still, Wa-loli, if done right, sounds like it can be very attractive.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

(snipped for lots of wasei-eigo and etymology)

That's actually a really good way of explaining it. I never studied Japanese academically, I can read it pretty well only from shopping online, so wasei-eigo is definitely something you know more about than me.

Edit: I decided it's also worth mentioning, since you're definitely on the right track, that there's a new style out there in the past two years or so related to Lolita: Dolly-kei.

Thanks for the links. I've only had time to go through about half of them, but, so far, it has been a very interesting read. I like the dress you bought. It's very cute. I hope you get a lot of use out of it. Also, have you ever tried any Wa-loli outfits? I think kimono's are beautiful, and I've seen many kimono-inspired dresses that I thought were stunning. Of course, I've seen many kimono-inspired dresses that I did not find appealing. Still, Wa-loli, if done right, sounds like it can be very attractive.

Thanks! I've already worn it a few times, its definitely one of my favourites.

Wa Loli just wouldn't suit me. It's VERY difficult to do right, and for girls who aren't asian, nearly impossible. Lolitas tend to discourage each other from trying it, just because it's so hard to pull off without looking like you're wearing a halloween costume. Bodyline, which is basically the Wal Mart of Lolita (with ALL that implies) sometimes releases a couple Wa Lolita outfits, but they're almost always terrible and way too short.

[Oberon]

I can certainly understand getting led astray by Google, it honestly happens to most people who try to look up Lolita.

It also appears to be what happens when you speak to, or read from the sources of, more than one person who claims to know what the fashion should look like...

I definitely recommend this article as an illustration of some of my problems with Wanda's outfit specifically.

And this article contains this statement:

A black and white dress, in and of itself, is not necessarily ita [which the article defines as "someone trying to dress Lolita but doesn't quite get it right" (my bolds for emphasis and later reference)], but a cheap and poorly made black dress with too much cheap lace and a poor design can be.

So, two identical outfits can fall both inside and outside the fashion, according to some, because of things such as the cost of the lace used. A choice which has nothing to do with the actual look of the outfit.

Reads to me like the preppy, rich, high school girls putting down the girl who tries to dress like them but can't afford the same designer labels. To anyone outside of the self-elected elite, one tartan skirt looks just like any other tartan skirt. The analogy might not be spot on, the separation may not be an economic one, but the the elitism reads loud and clear all the same. To anyone not "in the club" the girls look identical. It's only within the elitists that the differences make...a difference. The "ita" girl will never quite get it right, to the self-appointed Lolita fashion elitists. As in the caption for the "ita" fashion photograph, that makes me want to throw up a little.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Wow, for a second there I thought you went away forever, Oberon, but that was a nice return with the usual combative style we all know and love.

Just to play devil's advocate here, and maybe lighten the mood, "Just glue some gears on it and call it steaaam-punk".

The point I'm trying to make with the video is that group A (call it Loli, or Steampunk, or even Goth or whatever) emerged spontaneously, as people of similar interests, attitudes etc happened to meet in one small location (btw, didn't the 80s Goth emerge from a handful of punk rock clubs in London? what's the story now?). Among other things, group A creates a tribal identification for themselves, often involving clothing. They get noticed by outsiders, specifically, salient features of the tribal badge do.

Then horror of horrors, some of the outsiders find the badge cool and adopt/update it. Who the heck are you? We were in the bat-cave when you were a glint in the milkman's eye, go play with razors and hair-spray you cutter-emo-faggot. *cough* Anyway, that's how the thought process goes. The influx of newbs that ape the style, or at least some parts of it, is perceived as watering down if not even invasive by the oldies, who reject the newcomers as lacking authenticity.

[Housellama]

Wow, for a second there I thought you went away forever, Oberon, but that was a nice return with the usual combative style we all know and love.

Just to play devil's advocate here, and maybe lighten the mood, "Just glue some gears on it and call it steaaam-punk".

The point I'm trying to make with the video is that group A (call it Loli, or Steampunk, or even Goth or whatever) emerged spontaneously, as people of similar interests, attitudes etc happened to meet in one small location (btw, didn't the 80s Goth emerge from a handful of punk rock clubs in London? what's the story now?). Among other things, group A creates a tribal identification for themselves, often involving clothing. They get noticed by outsiders, specifically, salient features of the tribal badge do.

Then horror of horrors, some of the outsiders find the badge cool and adopt/update it. Who the heck are you? We were in the bat-cave when you were a glint in the milkman's eye, go play with razors and hair-spray you cutter-emo-faggot. *cough* Anyway, that's how the thought process goes. The influx of newbs that ape the style, or at least some parts of it, is perceived as watering down if not even invasive by the oldies, who reject the newcomers as lacking authenticity.

Ah, a masterful summation of the life cycle of the Common Trend, Latin name Popularis fashiona. Born as a larva out of the remains of its parents, it eventually mutates into a brilliant creature with particular markings and behaviors. Then as predators and imitators appear, the Common Trend turns carnivorous, eventually laying eggs and eating itself so that the cycle can continue.

[Housellama]

I admit that I intentionally left out the frilly skirt thing because it just didn't look right on Wanda. My apologies...

I don't think the Titan themselves could get Wanda into a petticoat.

[Sieggy]

Though I'd love the opportunity to get her out of one . . .