Wanda's new raiment

[Housellama]

Though I'd love the opportunity to get her out of one . . .

Zing!

You and about 3/4ths of the forum goers.

[drachefly]

I admit that I intentionally left out the frilly skirt thing because it just didn't look right on Wanda. My apologies...

I don't think the Titan themselves could get Wanda into a petticoat.

I'm sure they could define her into one by fiat, but they couldn't make her tolerate it without replacing her with someone else.

[Oberon]

Thank you, unsetsEstuamp. I've always wanted a link to nouns that end in 'th'.

[Mrtyuh]

That's actually a really good way of explaining it. I never studied Japanese academically, I can read it pretty well only from shopping online, so wasei-eigo is definitely something you know more about than me.

If I were you, I wouldn't put too much faith into anything I write. While my knowledge is fairly broad, it is also very shallow. Also, my brain likes to play connect the dots, but sometimes the picture it draws doesn't match up well with reality. Anyway, I like etymology and Japanese. In fact, if you look at my listed location, that is where I really live. It's two parts etymological roots and one part Japanese homophone.

Wa Loli just wouldn't suit me. It's VERY difficult to do right, and for girls who aren't asian, nearly impossible. Lolitas tend to discourage each other from trying it, just because it's so hard to pull off without looking like you're wearing a halloween costume. Bodyline, which is basically the Wal Mart of Lolita (with ALL that implies) sometimes releases a couple Wa Lolita outfits, but they're almost always terrible and way too short.

I found a couple of Bodyline wa loli dresses which didn't seem bad, for example. I wouldn't describe it as terrible, and, as for way too short, it seems to end just above the knee, which is shorter than your onepiece, but since some the dresses I found in my brief search almost guarantee fan service, I guess it depends on your definition. I did find a few wa loli dresses that I thought were breathtaking and perhaps wouldn't come across as cosplay, here, here and here. Of course, you would have a better idea of what suits you than I. Still, there could be ways to incorporate wa loli elements. While I don't particularly like this dress, the wa loli elements are subdued, so it doesn't come across as cosplayish. An example I like better is this. It has an obi-style belt and a kimono print, but is cut more like a country lolita dress. Another option would be to go qi lolita. Cheongsams are much more widely accepted in Western fashion than kimonos, so something like this might work. An example I like better, though, is this which has the mandarin collar and cut of a modern cheongsam, but lacks a stereotypical motiff. Still, if you really don't think wa or qi loli suit you, but you would like to incorporate a little bit, I would recommend this or maybe even this. The first skirt in its cut, and both in their prints, are kimono inspired. I think both of them, but particularly the first one, would coordinate well with a classic lolita ensemble. Okay, I'll stop playing devil's advocate now. I really not trying to influence your fashion. It's more of a theoretical exercise or, as I wrote before, playing connect the dots.

Wow, for a second there I thought you went away forever, Oberon, but that was a nice return with the usual combative style we all know and love.

Just to play devil's advocate here, and maybe lighten the mood, "Just glue some gears on it and call it steaaam-punk".

The point I'm trying to make with the video is that group A (call it Loli, or Steampunk, or even Goth or whatever) emerged spontaneously, as people of similar interests, attitudes etc happened to meet in one small location (btw, didn't the 80s Goth emerge from a handful of punk rock clubs in London? what's the story now?). Among other things, group A creates a tribal identification for themselves, often involving clothing. They get noticed by outsiders, specifically, salient features of the tribal badge do.

Then horror of horrors, some of the outsiders find the badge cool and adopt/update it. Who the heck are you? We were in the bat-cave when you were a glint in the milkman's eye, go play with razors and hair-spray you cutter-emo-faggot. *cough* Anyway, that's how the thought process goes. The influx of newbs that ape the style, or at least some parts of it, is perceived as watering down if not even invasive by the oldies, who reject the newcomers as lacking authenticity.

Thanks for the link. I always enjoy a good laugh. I've never been much of a fan of steampunk, the genre or the fashion, but I can understand the sentiment of those that do.

Japanese culture leans heavily towards republicanism, so it makes sense that even their displays of individuality are regimented. I've never had a problem with the "if you want to join our club, you have to follow our rules" mentality, as long as it's accessible to those who are willing to conform, unlike Oberon's rich girl example. It makes sense people want to surround themselves with those that share the beliefs and/or tastes. What I've never been able to understand are those that seek to join such groups when all they want to do is change everything. It's as if their only purpose is to ruin other people's fun and/or comfort. Anyways, enough rambling. You made very good points.

I don't think the Titan themselves could get Wanda into a petticoat.

I'm sure they could define her into one by fiat, but they couldn't make her tolerate it without replacing her with someone else.

This gives me an idea I'd love to see. I don't know if Xin is still reading, but I hope she is. When we get to Jillian at old Faq, I want to see her in an outfit like this or this. It would give Xin another crack at lolita fashion if she wants one. The colors of green and gold match those of old Faq. The kimono-inspired nature of these outfits matches old Faq's Japanese-inspired aesthetic. The modest, regimented nature of the fashion may fit with King Banhammer's philosophical leanings. The underlining rebellious undercurrents of the fashion would fit Jillian perfectly. I could definitely see Jillian popping in one of these wa loli outfits. Now, much like Countess Artemis, she would probably hate it and want nothing more than to get out of it, but I can see her father forcing her to don it whenever she attended court, which would contribute to her preference to be in the field. I think both these outfits are very pretty, and I'm sure any art Xin creates inspired on them would be gorgeous. The more I think of it, the more perfect it seems, to me anyway.

[Oberon]

It makes sense people want to surround themselves with those that share the beliefs and/or tastes. What I've never been able to understand are those that seek to join such groups when all they want to do is change everything. It's as if their only purpose is to ruin other people's fun and/or comfort.

There is a thin line here, which should be a broad line. Are the other people who want to adopt the beliefs and/or tastes "doing it right", or are they trying to change things? And who is the authority passing judgement on their actions? It's very easy to call yourself a purist whilst being an elitist. Even a casual glance at the sentence "the Wal Mart of Lolita (with ALL that implies)" screams of elitism. I'm not sure of the motivations of the author of that statement. Do they dislike any mass market adoption of the fashion? Do they dislike inexpensive and broadly available fashion options? What exactly does a Wal Mart of Lolita threaten, to be so described? Here's another example of elitism: "Wa Loli just wouldn't suit me. It's VERY difficult to do right, and for girls who aren't asian, nearly impossible." Really? Now we have a person's ethnicity being wrapped up in the judgement of a clothing fashion. You cannot get the fashion look right because you aren't Asian. Sorry, black girls. Sorry, caucasian girls. You'll never measure up, you just can't wear this fashion well enough. I just threw up a little bit again.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

It makes sense people want to surround themselves with those that share the beliefs and/or tastes. What I've never been able to understand are those that seek to join such groups when all they want to do is change everything. It's as if their only purpose is to ruin other people's fun and/or comfort.

There is a thin line here, which should be a broad line. Are the other people who want to adopt the beliefs and/or tastes "doing it right", or are they trying to change things? And who is the authority passing judgement on their actions? It's very easy to call yourself a purist whilst being an elitist. Even a casual glance at the sentence "the Wal Mart of Lolita (with ALL that implies)" screams of elitism. I'm not sure of the motivations of the author of that statement. Do they dislike any mass market adoption of the fashion? Do they dislike inexpensive and broadly available fashion options? What exactly does a Wal Mart of Lolita threaten, to be so described? Here's another example of elitism: "Wa Loli just wouldn't suit me. It's VERY difficult to do right, and for girls who aren't asian, nearly impossible." Really? Now we have a person's ethnicity being wrapped up in the judgement of a clothing fashion. You cannot get the fashion look right because you aren't Asian. Sorry, black girls. Sorry, caucasian girls. You'll never measure up, you just can't wear this fashion well enough. I just threw up a little bit again.

Wow, are you always like this? Calm down.

Bodyline is the Wal Mart of lolita because they sell cheap knockoffs of brand designs, with lower quality materials, and have several shady business practices (such as their "Model Search" actually being the designers quest for a gaijin waifu). I have a few Bodyline pieces myself, in fact I purchased my winter boots from them. Very few people are actually opposed to buying from Bodyline, and those that are, usually oppose it for copyright violation issues. The most infamous knockoff used to be Bodyline's replica of Angelic Pretty's "Fruits Parlour" print. It was a dramastorm.

Non-Japanese girls in kimono are already apt to look like they're wearing a costume. I know that I, a curvy Iroquois-English mix, look awful in them. Adding a skirt 3 metres in diameter and a metric buttload of ruffles and lace only make it worse. And that's okay. Not everyone is going to look good in every substyle of Lolita. A good friend of mine looks absolutely adorable in OTT Sweet, with candy shaped barettes in a pastel wig, and three of the floofiest petticoats on earth, but would look ridiculous in Gothic. I think if you're taking the fact that ONE substyle is very hard to wear, and making that into a sign that NO non Asian girl can wear Lolita, you're the one with a problem.

@ Mrtyuh, that "Autumn Fan" dress from Fan Plus Friend would look really cute on Jillian! Just switch out that random gingham ruffle for a plain black or something, I mean, the top looks alright, a little bit Dolly-kei, but then SUDDENLY GINGHAM.

Most of the other dresses you linked to would look pretty cute too, if you replaced the awful scratchy looking lace on them. Luckily that's not hard to do. It's actually a common trick for buying Lolita on a budget, buy a cheaper dress that has a good look and replace the trim with something a little nicer.

[0beron]

For what I believe to be the first time in forum history, I find myself agreeing with my Capital O counterpart, cus Oberon has it nailed. A lot of what you write smacks of elitism, albeit possibly on a subconscious level you're not using intentionally.

Your use of the walmart analogy is actually quite telling. Walmart actually does NOT engage in particularly shady business practices (at least any that are out of the norm for retail as whole), in fact some economists/experts are of the opinion they actually have good solutions to many socioeconomic problems we face today. While many walmart products do use sub-par materials, the only negative connotation there is towards the people buying them. By criticizing that, you're essentially saying "You're not really doing the fashion, because you're too cheap to buy more expensive products that look exactly the same"

I'm not saying you're intentionally trying to be a stuck-up/condescending hipster, I'm pointing out to you that it comes across that way, and you should take a moment to think about your opinions and word choice if you don't want to be perceived that way.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

For what I believe to be the first time in forum history, I find myself agreeing with my Capital O counterpart, cus Oberon has it nailed. A lot of what you write smacks of elitism, albeit possibly on a subconscious level you're not using intentionally.

Your use of the walmart analogy is actually quite telling. Walmart actually does NOT engage in particularly shady business practices (at least any that are out of the norm for retail as whole), in fact some economists/experts are of the opinion they actually have good solutions to many socioeconomic problems we face today. While many walmart products do use sub-par materials, the only negative connotation there is towards the people buying them. By criticizing that, you're essentially saying "You're not really doing the fashion, because you're too cheap to buy more expensive products that look exactly the same"

I'm not saying you're intentionally trying to be a stuck-up/condescending hipster, I'm pointing out to you that it comes across that way, and you should take a moment to think about your opinions and word choice if you don't want to be perceived that way.

I think you've completely missed my point. I said clear as day that I don't oppose buying from Bodyline (I OWN Bodyline pieces), and the only people who do, usually oppose it because of copyright infringement issues. Bodyline has a bad habit of plagiarizing the artwork in prints, like the Fruits Parlor example I mentioned. Yes, the materials are subpar, but that really doesn't matter if you're buying a blouse that's going to be worn under a jumperskirt.

The fact of the matter is, Wanda's raiment is not Lolita by any stretch of the imagination. It's just really cute goth. 0beron chose to make it a big elitism thing.

[Oberon]

0beron chose to make it a big elitism thing.

I just called it as it read. As Zeroberon more gently said, you might watch how you say what you say if you don't want to be misunderstood.

[drachefly]

Certain turns of phrase certainly seemed to have that connotation to me. Of course, it's a discussion of fashion... finding classism is almost but not quite like finding gambling going on at Rick's Café Americain.

[Housellama]

0beron chose to make it a big elitism thing.

I just called it as it read. As Zeroberon more gently said, you might watch how you say what you say if you don't want to be misunderstood.

See, I didn't have any problem with what she said. Sure, she sounds elitist. But that's what fashion is about. What's the point of brand names otherwise? Clothing is clothing. Without labels, the only difference is in quality. What makes one pair of jeans 'cooler' than a pair of identical quality is the tag on it. In fashion, it's just as much about who you're wearing as it is what you are wearing. If that's not elitism, I don't know what is.

She's discussing fashion, and what's more she's discussing fashion within a very narrow subculture. Elitism is built in. It's the way that the subculture works. From the outside there's very little difference, but within the subculture it's night and day. She's defending her territory. Elitism should be expected.

Besides, let (s)he who has never been elitist about gaming or work or school or anything else cast the first stone. A goodly portion of people here are gamers, and I'd argue that most every gamer is or has been elitist at one time or another. Probably not intentionally, but we all have our favorite games and we all have our particular quirks about them. Not to mention the pet theories that fly around here. Every subculture has it. It's the way societies are organized.

Yes, elitism is ugly, but mostly when you're on the wrong side of it. Try to keep that in mind and judge others as you wish to be judged.

To LittleGreenSoldier:

Wow, are you always like this? Calm down.

The answer is yes. Oberon is always like that. You're new here so I'll give you the heads up. Oberon is like the annoying cousin in our twisted little family. The one that always knows everything and can and does find fault with anything. Just ignore him. That's what most of us do, generally.

[doran]

I think Godwin's law needs a counterpart - any argument will eventually boil down to semantics. Namely arguing about the meanings of words.

Seriously I'm thinking of creating a tv tropes article for this - the last one was Internet Backdraft.

Hmm, is there a word for someone who is interested looking at people's arguments? Not actively bringing them up to try and make trouble, but finding new and old feuds on the internet, following them back through forum posts, and trying to see it from each persons point of view? Trying to spot how initial misunderstandings can flare up, and (try to) use that knowledge to calm people down, without (hopefully!) coming across as condescending.

Anyway, in other news, we're famous people!
(Third post, first comment Rob makes on his own post)

[drachefly]

The funny thing is, no one would have given him any trouble on it if he hadn't given us the verbal description.

[Oberon]

Sure, she sounds elitist.

Yep, she sure does. I give no excuse for the subject. Calling fashion an excuse to be racist is no excuse as far as I am concerned.

Oberon is always like that.

Wow, I didn't know that calling out elitism was such a bad thing... For me, the kind of elitism LittleGreenSoldier described is quite awful. Others may decide that I'm being "like that", as if being "like that" was somehow wrong, but I'll still call it like I see it.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Anyway, in other news, we're famous people!
(Third post, first comment Rob makes on his own post)

I found his post a little rude and dismissive, myself.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Sure, she sounds elitist.

Yep, she sure does.

Oberon is always like that.

Wow, I didn't know that calling out elitism was such a bad thing... For me, the kind of elitism LittleGreenSoldier described is quite awful. Others may decide that I'm being "like that", as if being "like that" was somehow wrong, but I'll still call it like I see it.

What kind of elitism have I described, pray tell?

[Oberon]

What kind of elitism have I described, pray tell?

Here you go:

Wanda's outfit, while stylish, is NOTHING close to Lolita. Please don't ever call it that, it only makes things harder for those of us who have to explain why we're wearing petticoats to everyone we meet.

Here you assign yourself as the fashion police. If you don't feel that the outfit is within the fashion of Lolita, well then it couldn't possibly be...

I just realized you posted a link. That article is from 2007, when Lolita was still new in the west, and was written by someone outside the fashion.

Here you describe how a description of the fashion from the past is wrong, using no other criteria other than the date as if time somehow made something incorrect on its own, and how the author is wrong because they are "outside the fashion", whatever the hell that means.

I could have written an essay, tearing apart Wanda's outfit, [...]

Oh, could you now? Based upon your unimpeachable credentials as a fashion nazi, right?

Still, I'm working under the assumption that items listed as Gothic Lolita are actually Gothic Lolita.

Unfortunately that's the worst thing you can do. There are a lot of things on the internet being sold as Gothic Lolita that are anything but. That punk store you linked to is unfortunately one of those stores selling poor quality goth and punk dresses as Lolita, preying on girls who don't know any better. Much like goths know that Tripp pants are garbage and fall apart, lolitas don't buy from those stores.

Really? That punk store is "preying on girls who don't know any better", because of course you know better? Lolitas "don't buy from those stores" according to you, but if they didn't those stores would be out of business. Unless of course the Lolita fashion doesn't buy into your elitism and therefore those stores succeed. Your elitism loses vs. commercial success.

The oufit you created for [Wanda] is cute, sexy, and totally her, and I can definitely see where you drew from elements of old school Lolita.

Oh? "Old school Lolita" being exactly what? Who defines these things? Seems to be you...

Wa Loli just wouldn't suit me. It's VERY difficult to do right, and for girls who aren't asian, nearly impossible.

I already addressed this... Stating that a fashion is ethnically dependent is racist. I'm not sure why I need to repeat myself here.
And then there is this:

Bodyline, which is basically the Wal Mart of Lolita (with ALL that implies) [...]

What exactly does this imply? You follow up with defensive statements about how you own Bodlyline items. So what is it that ALL this implies, really? You need to take a stand. Does Bodyline suck with ALL that implies, or is is ok to own Bodyline items? You leave it unclear...
To put things into perspective, I have a 6 figure salary. And I shop about bi-weekly at a dollar store. It just makes sense. Why pay more for things than you have to? There is no Wal Mart near me, or I'd probably shop there. I'd never use a phrase such as "the Wal Mart of X (with ALL that implies)", because that just sucks. I have a lot of hobbies, some which are rather expensive, and I take advantage of the cheap options for those hobbies. I value my dollars, and I don't feel at all embarrassed when I utilize options to save those dollars. I also do not judge people who have a lower income than I do for utilizing cost saving stores. Again, it just makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the elitist attitudes of people who set themselves up as the judges over the masses, on any subject from fashion on. They can go screw themselves. You, too.

[BLANDCorporatio]

The funny thing is, no one would have given him any trouble on it if he hadn't given us the verbal description.

Ninja-ed.

Anyway, if ever I write a webcomic, novel, or any piece of fiction, I will not refer to Stupidworld fashion styles by name. This should be a law on a list for writers, a-la The Evil Overlord List. But for writers.

[LittleGreenSoldier]

Okay, you know what? No. I'm not going to play this game with you. I've already addressed almost everything in your post, with links to resources. You're just cherrypicking my posts and grasping to find things that you think are objectionable, and now you've resorted to being abusive as well. So no, I refuse to continue discussing this with you. It's a waste of time, mine and yours.


Fun fact for everyone else in the thread: A local magazine in my community once managed to piss off the local Lolita community, local Goth community, and the local Steampunk community in ONE article, when one of their correspondents took pictures of Lolitas (including me) and Goths at a local Gothic variety show, and labeled us all Steampunk.

[0beron]

I found his post a little rude and dismissive, myself.

Really!? His post was actually DEFENDING you and your worthless little whining elitism. Sorry, you have lost all of whatever little respect I could have had for you, and made it abundantly clear you just WANT to be unhappy and cause problems.

Case and point, when the conversation with "everyone else in the thread" had turned civil and you were "educating" them on Loliwhatever, you turn the conversation BACK to a hostile/negative topic.

Fun fact for everyone else in the thread: A local magazine in my community once managed to piss off the local Lolita community, local Goth community, and the local Steampunk community in ONE article, when one of their correspondents took pictures of Lolitas (including me) and Goths at a local Gothic variety show, and labeled us all Steampunk.

Please, go be a malcontent elsewhere.