Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

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Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby balder » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:30 am

New One is up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby goodmorrow » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:42 am

Terrifying. And goodbye to so many interesting character all at once :(

On the other hand, the Young Frankenstein reference was HILARIOUS!

So it balances out I guess.

EDIT: And first post too! This is a good day! Just not for Goodminton...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Chadim » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:46 am

Great update!
:shock:
Does that mean Wanda is still, technically, Barbarian in the books!? I would assume so, just like Faq,
Goodminton lives on in Wanda. So all she needs is a capital, to start her own side...

Am I the only one who is completely creeped out by
It was easy for Wanda to imagine that the world itself had been croaked, that she and Funnyface were alone in all creation. Some part of her found an odd kind of comfort in the thought.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby boegiboe » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:56 am

Does that mean Wanda is still, technically, Barbarian in the books!? I would assume so, just like Faq,
Goodminton lives on in Wanda. So all she needs is a capital, to start her own side...


I always thought Wanda was actually part of Faq, rather than allied to it as a barbarian, but I guess we don't have any direct evidence against that.

On a different note, I'm glad we finally got a picture of a sawhorse. Always wondered about that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby dwagonlowd » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:05 am

I can't figure out why Wanda's troops disappeared.
Was that just a side effect of going Barbarian?
Or were they destroyed by the same enemy effect that destroyed everyone back home?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby raphfrk » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:08 am

dwagonlowd wrote:I can't figure out why Wanda's troops disappeared.


Looks like a barbarian can only support their own stack, not all units in the hex.

Wanda should have stacked all the units. That way she could have put up a better fight. She is unlikely to be barbarian for very long, so upkeep for them would not be an issue (and is presumably what the gem was for)

The question if casters can be Rulers has been answered.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby rlc » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:35 am

Im going to guess that Wanda was a member of Faq and later of Gobwin Knob, but since she is a heir, she probably can restart her own side.

I think this is a nice setup for the plot of Book 3 (or the end of Book 2).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby SHolmes » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:37 am

raphfrk wrote:
dwagonlowd wrote:I can't figure out why Wanda's troops disappeared.


Looks like a barbarian can only support their own stack, not all units in the hex.

Wanda should have stacked all the units. That way she could have put up a better fight. She is unlikely to be barbarian for very long, so upkeep for them would not be an issue (and is presumably what the gem was for)

The question if casters can be Rulers has been answered.


Don't forget, you can only make a stack of up to 8 units. Which is what you see in the art (+1 for Wanda).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Swodaems » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:40 am

All of Wanda's uncroaked being destroyed except for her stack when the capital fell raises a few questions.
1. Would a second capital have mattered with regards to the disbandment? (Considering Trem wants to abandon Spacerock, it probably does.)
2. The city of Goodminton was not only Goodminton's only capital, but its only city as well. Would a non-capital city have mattered? (We may find this one out if we ever get more of Jillian's post FAQ story from her. Stanley's account of the battle says he took the capital first followed by the outlying cities.)
3. (an old question, but a still relevant one.) What exactly is the max stack size? We were introduced to the 8 man stack as it being the smallest size capable of taking full advantage of a particular bonus. Wanda organizes her units here into 'battle stacks,' which explains why we see only 8 (including Wanda and Funnyface as a single unit,) in Wanda's stack in the picture. What was the upper limit on units she could have saved?
4. Would Wanda still be counted as a heir by the world despite the side that promoted her ceasing to be? Raises real interesting questions about potential stealth heir tactics. Especially if the side does not have to cease to be and the heir unit in question can become heir of an enemy side by merely turning.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby rlc » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:46 am

SHolmes wrote:
raphfrk wrote:
dwagonlowd wrote:I can't figure out why Wanda's troops disappeared.


Looks like a barbarian can only support their own stack, not all units in the hex.

Wanda should have stacked all the units. That way she could have put up a better fight. She is unlikely to be barbarian for very long, so upkeep for them would not be an issue (and is presumably what the gem was for)

The question if casters can be Rulers has been answered.


Don't forget, you can only make a stack of up to 8 units. Which is what you see in the art (+1 for Wanda).


I dont think that is right. I believe the bonus stops at 8, but you can stack as many as you want.

It makes sense to only stack to 8 to maximize use of stacks.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby badninja » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:18 pm

Wow what a sad ending of this story. Why do I think that Clay did not curse her but boosted her instead? The way the battle went it feels that they just had nothing go right so where they rolling all ones? So who will the next story be about? I feel it will be about the Tool and how he rose to power and why he got promoted to heir. We will never hear, during this story at least, about what happened to Wanda before she joined FAQ.
I came, I saw, I had fun!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:18 pm

These updates have managed to make Wanda sympathetic to me. Poor gal. Bad day for her, worse day for Goodminton. I await the tale of vengeance with a vengeance.

Pity that Wanda didn't get to uncroak Delphie and make her dance a jig. Oh well.

There's a silver lining to this though. We can finally put to rest that debate on whether casters can be heirs and overlords.

Yes they can. Next.

rlc wrote:I dont think that is right. I believe the bonus stops at 8, but you can stack as many as you want.

It makes sense to only stack to 8 to maximize use of stacks.


You'd think so, but this is not necessarily true.

Imagine a naive bonus system, which I think fits what you describe. Bonus is multiplicative. "Damage" times "stack bonus" is what enters into the next stage of calculation. Let's say stack bonus is 1 for stacks of 1 unit, and increases until the max value at stacks of 8 units, thereafter remaining constant.

You have N (more than 8) units, with total attack A. If you stack all of them, you receive ("stack bonus(8)"-1) times A amount of "bonus damage" (the -1 in there is because the units, naturally and without bonus, inflict A). If you somehow manage to split N into several stacks of 8 units, you still only have ("stack bonus(8)"-1) times (A divided by number of stacks) times number of stacks*. Same thing.

{EDIT: *this works for units that all have the same Attack stat. If you mix units, it comes down to the same thing, but it's uglier to write down}

If you cannot split N into stacks of 8, say you have 15 units, it's actually better to keep them all together, so that they enjoy stack bonus(8), rather than one stack of 8 (full bonus) and one stack of 7 (lower bonus).

So to mitigate this, you might say, a stack may only attack so many times a turn. Ok, but depending on the targets you plan to engage, you're still better off amassing units in large stacks, so that you give your opponent less opportunities for retaliatory damage. Attack him with one big stack that destroys them, they only kill units from you once. Bleed them in several attacks, they also fight back several times.

Which is why Erfsims converged on rules where either stack size has a hard cap of 8, or the stack bonus decreases sharply (like 1/N^2 or sharper) after 8.

Oh yeah, did I mention the community in the "your games" forum? We welcome new members. Some people there have even made an external forum, New Erf, where discussing possible rulesets is the purpose.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby rlc » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:30 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Which is why Erfsims converged on rules where either stack size has a hard cap of 8, or the stack bonus decreases sharply (like 1/N^2 or sharper) after 8.


Ive been assuming some sort of diminishing returns which makes having a stack of 9 less bonusy than a stack of 8 and etc. So yeah, something like that.

Its basics law of dimishing returns. You could think of the stack bonus as a downward pointing parabola with a max at 8. Or, more likely, something like a Poisson distribution peaking at 8.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:38 pm

rlc wrote:Ive been assuming some sort of diminishing returns which makes having a stack of 9 less bonusy than a stack of 8 and etc. So yeah, something like that.


rlc wrote:I dont think that is right. I believe the bonus stops at 8, but you can stack as many as you want.


Well, it was concealed under the "bonus stops at 8" thing, which may be interpreted as "stays constant after 8".

rlc wrote:You could think of the stack bonus as a downward pointing parabola with a max at 8.


More or less so. But rather than K-(N-8)^2, it's something like K/(N-8)^2.

rlc wrote:Or, more likely, something like a Poisson distribution peaking at 8.


So far, we tended to stay clear of exponentials and logarithms. I'm the only one to have designed a system that required logarithms in unit cost formulas, but set the parameters in the system such that the logarithms disappeared (replaced by powers of stat values). That system almost achieved its purpose, if only I hadn't forgotten about low-hit units ...

But back on topic, rulesets are intended to use math that one may work out on a napkin without a calculator on-hand. Logs, trigs, exps - nice, but avoid.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby rlc » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:51 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Well, it was concealed under the "bonus stops at 8" thing, which may be interpreted as "stays constant after 8".


Me engineer. Language stat no good.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:53 pm

And so comes the unceremonious end to goodmitten. Seems haffaton had their forces in striking distance and move in when Wanda moved out. Seems her real best chance to escape fate would have been staying behind and retreating to the magic kingdom to avoid capture. But next turn she will more than likely be captured by Haffaton. But is this where we end our tale for now, or are we going to continue on to see how Wanda spends her days with haffaton? In particular I would very much like to see her be the poison that crushes the entire side from the inside... in particular I would like to see her play nicely with Olive just so she can end her with a poisonous kiss of her own

I do also wonder, is this the start of long journey for wanda, jumping from side to side, or is Faq gonna be her next stop after haffaton? Rob really does have a way of playing with our expectations.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:There's a silver lining to this though. We can finally put to rest that debate on whether casters can be heirs and overlords.

Yes they can. Next.

Next debate... Does Wanda still have her barbarian overlord status even though she has joined up with other sides?
Jillian still had her status but she was always barbarian and only allied herself; Wanda however actually became a unit for another side. If Stanely were croaked while she was in the field, wuld she disband or would she became a barbarian again thanks to her status as the former overlord of goodmitten?
There's been quite a few poeple who always wondered about Wanda starting her own side.
Last edited by MonteCristo on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Whispri » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:02 pm

Poor Wanda :(

How on Erf did they conceal an army that close to the Capital? An assault by air surely?

You know, if Delphie hadn't told Haffaton they were destined to capture Wanda, they couldn't have risked this. Assuming it was them of course, there are those two unnamed enemy Sides to conisder.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:02 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Next debate... Does Wanda still have her barbarian overlord even though she has joined up with other sides?


Indeed, the mechanics of Heir/Overlord are sketchy. What happens in case of capture? Or uncroaking? Or decrypting, what was the last info on Oss' status as Heir?

I'm leaning to say that Wanda would be able to start her own side should she so choose, and I think her hidden Overlord special is keeping her Loyalty to anyone else low. At the moment though, we need more info.

MonteCristo wrote:There's been quite a few poeple who always wondered about Wanda starting her own side.


Precisely. The objections to that included "we don't know whether Casters can be overlords". Now we know. A similar discussion was about Charlie. Overlord of a side, but maybe not a caster because of that, the line of thought went. Now we know that one Caster may become a non-barbarian overlord, like Wanda was for a few moments before she became barbarian. And obviously Wanda is still a caster to the present day.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Balerion » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:03 pm

If I had to guess, Haffaton just reused their tunneling ambush strategy. Move close enough to strike Goodminton in 1 turn, but be sure that they can't see you. Then wait for the uncroaked to die or leave, and strike with complete surprise. I am curious if they worked with air units that were outside the scouting range too, or if they simply had a few hundred ground troops under ground.

Also a side note: given the massive numbers of uncroaked that were left, I think we can safely say the right move was to wait on them dying. Attacking would have required at least 3k men to ensure a win, which is a non-trivial mobilization.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:05 pm

Balerion wrote:If I had to guess, Haffaton just reused their tunneling ambush strategy.


You mean they already have a mole?
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