158 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 145

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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Ancient History » Wed May 06, 2009 4:14 pm

Y'know, what I'm wondering is how much information on their original sides the intelligent Uncroaked can convey. Parson could, at the very least, get a map of the enemy's territories, their strengths and weaknesses, if not their strategies, resources, and any specific individuals or magic items to look out for.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Frogpop » Wed May 06, 2009 7:39 pm

"Pie."
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby cdrcjsn » Thu May 07, 2009 3:38 am

Ancient History wrote:Y'know, what I'm wondering is how much information on their original sides the intelligent Uncroaked can convey. Parson could, at the very least, get a map of the enemy's territories, their strengths and weaknesses, if not their strategies, resources, and any specific individuals or magic items to look out for.


Well, Ansom did say that he remembered everything, even though he now views the information in a different light.

Then again, if that type of information is conveyed to warlords via natural thinkamancy, then it's likely that the info would quickly become outdated, since I doubt the various factions would be sending that info to the new decrypted warlords now.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby greywords » Thu May 07, 2009 4:23 am

Shadow of the Lotus wrote:The arkenpliers seem too powerful in comparison to the arkenhammer and arkendish.


1) Who ever said that the Arken tools are equally "powered"?
2) We may not have seen the full capabilities of either hammer or dish - could be that Charlie and Stanley just don't know how to use them properly or maybe they're not the ideal folks to be attuned to them, just two folks who are "close enough" to get some extra bonuses and such.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Aquillion » Thu May 07, 2009 4:57 am

greywords wrote:
Shadow of the Lotus wrote:The arkenpliers seem too powerful in comparison to the arkenhammer and arkendish.


1) Who ever said that the Arken tools are equally "powered"?
2) We may not have seen the full capabilities of either hammer or dish - could be that Charlie and Stanley just don't know how to use them properly or maybe they're not the ideal folks to be attuned to them, just two folks who are "close enough" to get some extra bonuses and such.
The Arkenpliers have several disadvantages over the other tools anyway, some of which have been touched on.

1. You need corpses to make the Arkenpliers special unit. Charlie or Stanley can quietly wait and build up big armies of high-powered units using their tools; Wanda has to get into fights with strong opponents if she wants to get strong decrypted units.

2. The special units for the other tools are uniquely powerful, offering unique special powers that are otherwise difficult to get (see all the Archon's magical abilities or the high-speed flight of both.) Decrypted units are only as good as what you have available for decrypting; and we don't know yet if other special units can be decrypted.

3. As far as we've seen, you have to be near the things you want to decrypt (or at least in the hex). Charlie can control his empire of Archons from a secure hidden base. Stanley can stay back in his capitol (even if he doesn't always choose to). But to use the Arkenpliers, Wanda has to be on the front lines all the time, which makes her an obvious target for every enemy ambush. Along the same lines, Wanda has to actually use the arkenpliers to create units, which probably consumes her actions or juice or whatever; it appears as though the Arkenhammer just lets Stanley's side pop Dwagons even when he's not around, as an automatic benefit.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby greywords » Thu May 07, 2009 5:08 am

SteveMB wrote:The confrontation between Wanda and Ansom implies some sort of previous history between them, but exactly what it was is left to speculation.


I think what Ansom was referring to was the fact that the pliers didn't destroy the undead she was riding - he said something like "what have you done to them?" in the prior strip.

Any speculation that Wanda previously had the pliers seems pretty far fetched to me, particularly because she isn't quite sure what she created with Ansom at first.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby depricated » Thu May 07, 2009 5:20 am

My thoughts on it are this:

It's not that the Arkenpliers are Overpowered as such. They are just as powerful as the Arkenhammer and Arkendish.

However, neither Stanley nor Charlie are Casters. It seems that anyone can use magical artifacts, like the hat for instance, and therefore also can potentially attune to one of the tools. I would go so far as to suggest that perhaps each tool is attuned to a specific type of magic, and perhaps negatively attuned to another(the archetypal Fire and Ice juxtaposition).

Furthermore, we know that Wanda is more adept at magic than most Casters, and is able to work with most schools outside of her specialization. For instance, she was able to summon Parson. This is contrasted against Sizemore who can't do much of anything outside of his specialization.

Now, being a Caster and Attuned to the Arkenpliers, I think it's reasonable that Wanda is able to - perhaps sense? - the full potential of the tool and take advantage of it. Now here's where it gets interesting.

The three elements of magic are Life, Motion, and Matter. If each tool were attuned to one element, it could in turn augment a spell which uses it as a focus. We've seen magics augment eachother already with the uncroaking of the volcano. I don't suppose that a tool of the titans should be less powerful than three casters.

That said, I propose this theory: that the Arkenpliers are an artifact of Life magic. Ansom showed us that they cut through Uncroaked like nothing, and what's Life if not the opposite of Croaked? Like throwing water on a fire. So why don't the Arkenpliers outright negate Croakamancy? I think it changes the spell completely. The obvious joke aside, I think that decrypting Ansom was appropriate exactly to this supposition. That is to say that, rather than Uncroak Ansom, Wanda was able to actually remove the Croaked status from him(if we were to consider it like a status effect), and apply the rest of the effects of her spell which didn't relate to Life magic. So Ansom isn't just an uncroaked unit, he's more appropriately an Ex-Croaked unit. Follow? It's a very dark form of Resurrection, in this case.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby greywords » Thu May 07, 2009 5:38 am

depricated wrote:So Ansom isn't just an uncroaked unit, he's more appropriately an Ex-Croaked unit. Follow? It's a very dark form of Resurrection, in this case.


Interesting theory - I like it.

Maybe one of the side effects of being ex-croaked/decrypted/decwypted is that the target gets kind of frozen in time mentally. That is, they retain all their previous experience and knowledge up to the point of their croaking but can't form new opinions or learn from their mistakes in their new form. Just some wild speculation here...
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby depricated » Thu May 07, 2009 7:38 am

I like the way you think, greywords

One thing though: Ansom is already changing opinions. He's rationalizing his alignment shift to Gobwin Knob, kind of. But that could just be the magic talking, since he'd still be bound to Gobwin Knob by the other mechanics of Uncroaking.

Interesting possibilities.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby neosonichdghg » Thu May 07, 2009 9:47 am

I only read a few pages of responses, so maybe someone already suggested this...

But what if it's not the Pliers? I mean, I know they help. But as several people have pointed out, this is a huge amount more powerful than we've seen the hammer being.

On the other hand, a lot of units got croaked by that volcano trick. What if Wanda got experience for all of them?
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby MarbitChow » Thu May 07, 2009 11:09 am

neosonichdghg wrote:I only read a few pages of responses, so maybe someone already suggested this...
But what if it's not the Pliers? I mean, I know they help. But as several people have pointed out, this is a huge amount more powerful than we've seen the hammer being.
On the other hand, a lot of units got croaked by that volcano trick. What if Wanda got experience for all of them?


We've already seen Wanda mass-uncroak, so it's not a stretch to believe that the pliers are just augmenting the existing spells.
However, we know that Wanda left the area, and if you disengage, you don't get XP.
It's also a safe bet that, as a mechanic, no one gets experience from a death caused by traps (unlike combat experience), and the volcano was considered a massive dirtamancy trap.

Comparing the tools -
The hammer: Levitation, Lightning, Dwagons.
The pliers: Augments existing uncroak spells so that the units gain "No Decay" and retain all other specials they had prior to croaking.

Placed side by side, I'd have to say that, in general, the hammer is a better tool.
However, in the hands of a master-class Croakamancer who's standing over the graves of probably the largest single extermination event in recent memory, the Pliers are definitely better in that one case.
But the singular nature of this event prevents it from being exploitable. It's just a really, really lucky one-time occurance.

However, for those that say that Wanda has to be in the heat of battle to use the pliers, remember that bodies can be moved, and they don't disappear if you move them.
If you send out waves of dwagons with orders to kill and return with corpses, you could easily mass-produce units from a single hex each turn as your dwagons (or whatever) collect bodies for you.

In game terms, I assume 'move the corpses' means 'transport them between hexes'. Misty was buried, not "moved", so her body has vanished.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Ancient History » Thu May 07, 2009 11:18 am

Dinnae forget that the Arkenpliers also apparently croak the Uncroaked quite well.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Aquillion » Thu May 07, 2009 6:38 pm

Ancient History wrote:Dinnae forget that the Arkenpliers also apparently croak the Uncroaked quite well.

Yeah, but you gotta hit things with them. Not a very useful ability for a caster, who probably isn't going to want to wade into combat except when it's absolutely necessary.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Ancient History » Thu May 07, 2009 7:01 pm

<shrug> You have to hit a pigeon to make a walnut, too. I'm just saying that you have to take into account all the abilities of the arkentools, not just the ones of immediately obvious use to the present owner. Wanda with the Arkenpliers dance-fight leading a troop of Uncroaked is scary enough - but with the Arkenpliers, I'd hate to "fight fire with fire" and try to send another Croakamancer after her, because she'd rip right through them.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby greywords » Thu May 07, 2009 9:39 pm

depricated wrote:I like the way you think, greywords

One thing though: Ansom is already changing opinions. He's rationalizing his alignment shift to Gobwin Knob, kind of. But that could just be the magic talking, since he'd still be bound to Gobwin Knob by the other mechanics of Uncroaking.

Interesting possibilities.


True- could also be that the decrypt sends you into a sort of single-minded purpose state, like when the sisters in Practical Magic resurrected Jimmy Angelov. He came back, kind of, but had only really one shtick that he stuck to. Anyway, in this case the purpose could be defined at the moment of decryption based on what the caster most wants to happen. Or something... there really isn't any evidence for this theory - it's just one of the devices I might use if I were writing it.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby BarGamer » Fri May 08, 2009 2:23 am

Dude wrote:Would people please stop using "Decrypted" in regard to Ansom's new status as a unit?
It doesn't mean what most of you probably think it means (hint: it has nothing to do with a crypt). It means decoded.

How about you use reanimated instead, and stop sounding stupid?


*Points and laughs at Dude. HARD.*
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby depricated » Fri May 08, 2009 7:35 am

Dude wrote:Would people please stop using "Decrypted" in regard to Ansom's new status as a unit?
It doesn't mean what most of you probably think it means (hint: it has nothing to do with a crypt). It means decoded.

How about you use reanimated instead, and stop sounding stupid?

Ansom looks pretty determined in the second to last panel. He seems proud to serve under Lord Hamster. My opinion is that it has more to do with being defeated by him, than it has with a side-effect of his reanimation.

How did I miss this little gem?

lol

Dude...Dude...look.
Erfworld mocks everything, right? Like that's what makes it so great. That the one spell, whose sound effect was "NSFW"? Really? Do you truly believe that NSFW works as an onomatopoeia, too? If you don't see the humor in word play, then you've probably already missed a lot in this comic. Decrypt is both amusing a play on words and as a new concept. It perfectly describes what has happened.

And fourth, you look a moron for that.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby SteveMB » Fri May 08, 2009 9:43 am

Dude wrote:Ansom looks pretty determined in the second to last panel. He seems proud to serve under Lord Hamster. My opinion is that it has more to do with being defeated by him, than it has with a side-effect of his reanimation.


I think that, at least partially, it has to do with his old worldview being cracked and then finally shattered by his defeat. It's kind of hard to continue believing that the Titans are on your side when you get your boop kicked by someone you should have (based on Ansom's original description of the campaign plan) easily curb-stomped. In the real world, it's not uncommon for fanatics who lose their faith to become fanatical about something else (often in direct oppositon to their old belief system).
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 145

Postby privatepepper » Sun May 10, 2009 6:32 pm

What's really amazing is that not only do they have half the Coalition forces decrypted, they are also now so filthy rich that they could probably rebuild the city, pop a few thousand hobgobwins, and start producing tons of casters and dwagons.

If Misty's body hadn't disappeared, I would have hoped for her to be decrypted as well. Too bad, I guess.
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Re: 158 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 145

Postby SteveMB » Sun May 10, 2009 7:37 pm

privatepepper wrote:If Misty's body hadn't disappeared, I would have hoped for her to be decrypted as well. Too bad, I guess.

It depends on whether being buried counts as the body being "moved". If it is possible, Parson's reaction ought to be interesting (when it was a question of normal uncroaking, "I wouldn't do that to her even if Wanda was okay to cast").
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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