4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:19 am

Hm
It's an interesting theory, though I'm not sure it really works out given that what Olive did was pretty clearly Flower Power, not Signamancy. It's still possible...though if it's true, then I don't believe Olive is the attuned user. Not only is her name obviously a pun on things besides instrument companies, but if she was attuned I think the Chillaxe Spell would have been even more powerful. Though a game-changer, that spell wasn't a game-BREAKER.

We also have to consider whether or not the Peace on Erf movement is active yet. (Janis/Marie/ect) Because that impacts other possible explanations. Someone mentioned the possibility that the 4th Tool is actually being guarded by the Hippiemancers, and has been for a long time, so no side can reach it or even know it's there. It's possible that BOTH these theories are true, and that the Hippiemancers have actually given the 'Tool to Olive as one of their (obviously failed, since we know the future) plans to bring peace.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:35 am

The only problem I have with that theory is Wanda. Her Fate, all along, was to attune to an Arkentool, but she didn't know which one. That was the whole reason she masterminded Stanley's obliteration of FAQ - she planned for him to fall, so she could take the Hammer. If she was exposed to another Arkentool, and she knew she was Fated to attune to it, I think she'd have gone for that much sooner. The chance to get revenge on Olive at the same time would just be a bonus. And since she honestly believes that Olive is not trustworthy and that the Tool would attune to her, Wanda would probably be able to croak Olive without breaking Loyalty or Duty.
I suppose it's possible that Wanda simply might not know that the Chillax was an Arkentool, but they seem fairly distinctive. She'd know it if she saw it. So the only way that would work would be if the prediction that Wanda would attune was made long after Olive and the Chillax were taken beyond Wanda's reach, long enough that the Chillax's magic made her forget she'd ever seen it... and I just don't know how that would work with the timeline we have. It'd require both Olive and Wanda to be at Faq for considerable time, but Olive to leave and/or croak, losing the Chillax, before Marie's prediction about the Arkentools was made. I don't know if that works.

It's otherwise a sound theory, but I have trouble getting it over that hurdle. Though I'm sure there are other ways I've not thought of! And it would nicely back up my theory about the Hippiemancers guarding the 4th Tool by explaining how they got the booping thing in the first place, before seeing its terrible potential in Olive's hands, and deciding it must be kept safe and hidden so it could never be used.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:51 pm

... and it lacks 'arken', and you'd think an arkentool-level hippiemancer item would be more effective.

I am 99+% confident this isn't it.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Kreistor » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:41 am

Couple things:

1) The world is larger than they thought, which means the 4th tool could be on the far end of the world and simply not be known on this end.

2) The Arkentools might not align with any particular Mancy. The Hammer is aligned with many different Mancies, for a Warlord with no capacity to cast. The Pliers aligned with Wanda's Croakamancy, which could be explained by them wanting to make her better at what she could already do, rather than give her a new ability from its own set. This leads to the idea that Stanley misunderstood the Hammer... it takes on abilities that he wants, probably subconsciously, but potentially consciously. The Hammer can Rock Out, which is superior to Dance Fighting... and something Stanley would be extremely happy with it doing. So it Rocks Out because he wants it to.

This is supported by the new knowledge that Casters can be Overlords. Charlie, a Thinkamancer, gets the Dish, Attunes, and then uses the Thinkamancy to have himself made Heir and wait for his Overlord to be eliminated... or "convince" him that jumping off a wall is a good idea.

Anyway, The concept of Arkentools having single school affinity has had a bucket of water dumped on it. It's soggier now.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby mortissimus » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:07 am

Kreistor wrote:1) The world is larger than they thought, which means the 4th tool could be on the far end of the world and simply not be known on this end.


But there are four known arkentools, so there can be any number of unknown arkentools, but the fourth known tool needs to be known.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:45 am

Kreistor wrote:Anyway, The concept of Arkentools having single school affinity has had a bucket of water dumped on it. It's soggier now.


Honestly we've seen no proof either way, the only validity to your argument is "It's not IMpossible". So no, the concept of 'Tools having a single school affinity has NOT had a bucket dumped on it, you have just offered an alternative theory that is just as possible.

As for the 'Hammer, it exhibits powers in keeping with the theme of Carnymancy. It creates "cheap" special effect (lighting, levitation, and simple magic tricks like nut->pigeon and the like), it Rocks Out (which could be Carnymancy's version of Dance-Fighting, given that Rhyme-o-mancy and Carnymancy are both Stage Magic), and it tames wild animals that the rest of Erfworld fears (Dwagons).

EDIT: Book 0 page 26: "Singing was part of the Stagemancy involved in dance fighting."
Suggesting that dance-fighting is not restricted just to Rhyme-o-mancy.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Kreistor » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:38 pm

0beron wrote:As for the 'Hammer, it exhibits powers in keeping with the theme of Carnymancy. It creates "cheap" special effect (lighting, levitation, and simple magic tricks like nut->pigeon and the like), it Rocks Out (which could be Carnymancy's version of Dance-Fighting, given that Rhyme-o-mancy and Carnymancy are both Stage Magic), and it tames wild animals that the rest of Erfworld fears (Dwagons).


Oh, lord, not that again. Wasn't that completely destroyed by:

LIAB Text 44 wrote:He really should teach himself to use the thing better. Wanda said she thought it was a whole mess of different magicks, what'd she say...Shockmancy, obviously. Rhyme-o-mancy because it rocked out. Carnymancy because it made big flashes and sometimes could make things disappear (he never could do it on purpose, though). And what else? Changemancy? He looked at the hammer closely. There might be a lot more he could do with it besides taming dwagons, which was...Date-o-mancy[1], he guessed?


Wanda is an expert on Magic, and so would properly identify each school. We also have a definition for Carnymancy now -- the school of subterfuge and trickery. Trying to pervert all the powers of the Arkenhammer to fight that definition isn't going to work... it was never going to work. Heck, we have only seen the Arkenpliers do literally one thing. It's hardly a good example at this point of a Tool wiht an affinity... it has only one ability, so of course it appears to have an affinity.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:31 am

You have ignored the one most important word there:
"Wanda said she THOUGHT..."

So still no proof either way. Wanda only knows magic in-so-far as what she has witnessed, and we don't know if she's been personally exposed to those schools (though schockamancy may be safe bet since she has scrolls). Like I said, both of our theories are equally possible at this point because nothing conclusively disproves either.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:47 am

One might throw in the fact that that paragraph was Stanley remembering something Wanda said who knows how long ago. And memory has this notorious habit of altering/removing details.

So at the moment, nothing really conclusive to see what the Arkentools might be like. I could just as well throw a tin-foil hat theory that they are in fact not aligned to any school, but that the nature of the attuned unit dictates which of their powers surface more; and while a caster would get whopping power in their discipline, a warlord would get a jack-of-all-trades deal with varied abilities, even if these might not be specialized or as "powerful". But I just made that up now so I'm not too invested in it; I expect it to not pan out.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Kreistor » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:09 am

Prove that the 'Pliers are associated with Croakamancy and the 'Dish with Thinkamancy using your own standards of proof.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:05 pm

Well, so far as the 'dish giving control of Thinkamancy, we've had that specifically laid out for us as early as Book one, strip 88. Yes, Maggie could be mistaken, but her statement there of the Arkendish "giving Charlie a command of Thinkamancy she cannot match" is pretty unequivocal. Add that to the concerns of the Great Minds That Think Alike in the Magic Kingdom, and there seems to be very little doubt that the 'dish is enhancing Charlie's Thinkamancy to extreme levels.
Now in all fairness, we don't know that's specifically what the dish does. It might actually be an all-purpose Amplifier that just happens to have fallen into the hands of a powerful Thinkamancer. It might amplify the abilities of any unit who attunes to it, whatever they may be, from casting to archery to seige to leadership to fabrication. Or it might be any number of thousands of things. But every shred of evidence we've seen so far says that the 'dish is the reason Charlie's such a great Thinkamancer, and it certainly holds more water than any existing theory I've seen thus far.

As for the 'pliers, when Ansom weilded them as a weapon, they were a powerful weapon that were specifically powerful against the Uncroaked. They didn't do anything else for him. And then, of course, they've proven to be exceptionally useful for creating the Decrypted. Both attuned and not, it showed a specific connection to Croakamancy, and in that same comic I just linked, Ansom notes that one requires an understanding of Fate magic to "unlock" the secrets of the 'pliers.
So from that, it's strongly implied that it can only work on one axis of magic, and it's not shown the aptitude it has for Croakamancy in any other form of magic at all. Again, just because it's not demonstrated the ability to enhance other forms of magic doesn't mean it can't do that; but that's exactly as valid an argument as saying that maybe the Arkenpliers will conjure up a particularly delicious banana-cream pie if one weilds it while singing O Fortuna, based solely on the idea that we haven't seen proof it can't do that.

The simple fact is that we don't know a lot about how the Arkentools work at all. They're powerful and mysterious, which is kind of the whole point. But the 'dish and the 'pliers have demonstrated aptitude in only one area. The 'hammer seems to display various disciplines, and the sole canonical breakdown we've seen was, literally, a jumble of half-remembered theories from someone who didn't know for sure what they were talking about, presented to us by someone who doesn't understand the theories in the first place. The best we can say for sure is that the 'hammer displays bizarre, random abilities that can't always be controlled from a variety of magic schools. It's quite the Wild Card. Which, of course, leads us right back to Carnymancy, which can explain the things it manages to do while lining up with the other 'Tools apparently aligning with just the one school.

Based on all that, it's not unreasonable to think that the fourth tool, whatever it is, might follow suit. In whic case Hippiemancy, specifically Signamancy, seems to be a good candidate.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Kreistor » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:08 pm

Selexor wrote:Now in all fairness, we don't know that's specifically what the dish does.


Right, and that is the standard being used by the critics above, so you have not proven association.

As for the 'pliers, when Ansom weilded them as a weapon, they were a powerful weapon that were specifically powerful against the Uncroaked.


And in Wanda's hands they do the opposite -- creating them. Ansom had a powerful hatred of uncroaked, referring to them as "abominations". Again, the Tool could be serving the user.

Both attuned and not, it showed a specific connection to Croakamancy,


According to whom? Who has said this? We need an expert from the comic, not opinion.

Ansom notes that one requires an understanding of Fate magic to "unlock" the secrets of the 'pliers.


"One might throw in the fact that that paragraph was Ansom remembering something a Caster said who knows how long ago. And memory has this notorious habit of altering/removing details."

Sorry, I can dismiss that with a simple quote from the people setting the standard. Ansom is a warlord like Stanley and not an expert in Magic.

The simple fact is that we don't know a lot about how the Arkentools work at all.


And that's the crux. People with attitudes these alignment attitudes are ignoring that fact for presenting their own arguments, but setting it as a standard for any competing thoughts. Double standard.

Based on all that, it's not unreasonable to think that the fourth tool, whatever it is, might follow suit. In whic case Hippiemancy, specifically Signamancy, seems to be a good candidate.


Why not Predictamancy, Dollamancy, Changemancy, or Healomancy? They're all Fate aligned, and all useful in one way or another. Armies that can never die. Perfect knowledge of the future. Etc.

But, frankly, these were the tools that created Erfworld. They created everything, and so should be able to do anything. If there is any detectable alignment, it is in the Attuned, not the Tool. If they were aligned only with Fate, then they would be incapable of creating Erf itself, since Erf is a different axis. Fundamentally, they need to be able to do anything.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Kreistor wrote:Prove that the 'Pliers are associated with Croakamancy and the 'Dish with Thinkamancy using your own standards of proof.

Selexor did exactly that more eloquently than I could, so see his post.
However, again you are creating a dispute where there isn't one. I at no point claimed I had any proof. I have at least twice before specifically said that both our theories are equally plausible because no concrete proof exists to refute EITHER of them. You are the only one making a "I am right and you are wrong" claim.

EDIT: ninja-post, writing a new one to respond to Kriestor's latest
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:14 pm

Kreistor wrote:But, frankly, these were the tools that created Erfworld. They created everything, and so should be able to do anything. If there is any detectable alignment, it is in the Attuned, not the Tool. If they were aligned only with Fate, then they would be incapable of creating Erf itself, since Erf is a different axis. Fundamentally, they need to be able to do anything.

This is also not something we know. It is SAID, by the "religion" of Erfworld that the Titans used these 'Tools. However, if the real world is any example, religions lose details, distort history, and even outright lie. We don't know that these 4 'Tools aren't part of a larger set. We don't even know that the Titans did in fact use them. In fact, the only time we see Titans, they're working with their bare hands.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby mortissimus » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:23 pm

On that topic, we might note that knowledge about the tools is apparently not part of the knowledge units is popped with. If it was it would not be four known tools, there would be four tools. There would also not be in-comic speculation as to what they can do. So unlike the knowledge units are popped with, this is an area that follows the normal rules of guesswork, tests and rumours.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Lamech » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:52 pm

Selexor wrote:The simple fact is that we don't know a lot about how the Arkentools work at all. They're powerful and mysterious, which is kind of the whole point. But the 'dish and the 'pliers have demonstrated aptitude in only one area. The 'hammer seems to display various disciplines, and the sole canonical breakdown we've seen was, literally, a jumble of half-remembered theories from someone who didn't know for sure what they were talking about, presented to us by someone who doesn't understand the theories in the first place. The best we can say for sure is that the 'hammer displays bizarre, random abilities that can't always be controlled from a variety of magic schools. It's quite the Wild Card. Which, of course, leads us right back to Carnymancy, which can explain the things it manages to do while lining up with the other 'Tools apparently aligning with just the one school.
One thing I'd like to note about the hammer: Stanley needed to figure out what it does, he did not start knowing what it did. Also, it can't do everything, only somethings.
If the other tools follow suit this has a couple implications: 1)Wanda would need to figure out what the pliers do. Since, she seems to only like to attempt croakamancy and we haven't seen her experiment with the pliers at all, unless she was lucky enough to learn the one and only thing possible on her first try, it has other powers we haven't seen yet. Also on the hammer it blatantly has the following schools of magic: Rhyme-o-mancy, and shockamancy. It also according to Stanley remembering Wanda has carnymancy, and date-o-mancy. For a total of four flavors of magic. And then the flying is probably a fifth trick.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Kreistor wrote:Right, and that is the standard being used by the critics above, so you have not proven association.

Of course I can't prove association. If I could prove, without any doubt, that that's what the Arkentools do, we would not be having this conversation. The thread is not to quote specific proofs from the comic and to then gloat about how clever we are for parroting information we've already been given; it is for theories. Using what evidence we have available, put them together and come up with a possibility. Everyone else is doing this; your argument seems to revolve around "But we don't know for sure!" What you don't seem to grasp is that we are aware of this fact. Of course we don't know. That's why these are theories.

Kreistor wrote:
As for the 'pliers, when Ansom weilded them as a weapon, they were a powerful weapon that were specifically powerful against the Uncroaked.


And in Wanda's hands they do the opposite -- creating them. Ansom had a powerful hatred of uncroaked, referring to them as "abominations". Again, the Tool could be serving the user.

Both attuned and not, it showed a specific connection to Croakamancy,


According to whom? Who has said this? We need an expert from the comic, not opinion.

...this is how a connection works. The 'pliers have shown exactly three uses thus far: melee weapon, destroying uncroaked, creating decrypted. Two of those three are specifically involving Croakamancy. Could they do other things? Maybe. See my banana cream pie analogy above. In this case I'm not speculating as to what the 'pliers might do, I'm only referencing what we've canonically seen them do. Given your focus on requiring proof earlier, I'd have thought you'd like this argument.

Kreistor wrote:"One might throw in the fact that that paragraph was Ansom remembering something a Caster said who knows how long ago. And memory has this notorious habit of altering/removing details."

Sorry, I can dismiss that with a simple quote from the people setting the standard. Ansom is a warlord like Stanley and not an expert in Magic.

Then by the same standard, can I not simply dismiss your arguments just as easily? I'm not. I'm honestly trying to keep the debate going. But, alright: If a lack of expertise in magic means the weilder cannot possibly understand how an Arkentool works, we can dismiss all of the "evidence" that Stanley put forward. If we're not assuming that, then Ansom's quote is significant. Or maybe - crazy idea here - they're individuals who may have differing levels of understanding about how the Arkentools work. Based on what we know, in that Ansom had been trying to figure out how to attune to the 'pliers, I don't think that "something involving Fate magic" is too much of a stretch for his knowledge or lack thereof.

Kreistor wrote:And that's the crux. People with attitudes these alignment attitudes are ignoring that fact for presenting their own arguments, but setting it as a standard for any competing thoughts. Double standard.

No, they're coming up with possible theories. Theories don't require concrete proof or the word of the TItans, they require bits of evidence we can tie together with strings of theories. Concrete proof or the word of the Titans can cut those threads; simply observing that the theories are, in fact, theories? Does not. We already know they're theories. That's not the point.

Kreistor wrote:Why not Predictamancy, Dollamancy, Changemancy, or Healomancy? They're all Fate aligned, and all useful in one way or another. Armies that can never die. Perfect knowledge of the future. Etc.

But, frankly, these were the tools that created Erfworld. They created everything, and so should be able to do anything. If there is any detectable alignment, it is in the Attuned, not the Tool. If they were aligned only with Fate, then they would be incapable of creating Erf itself, since Erf is a different axis. Fundamentally, they need to be able to do anything.

There's one thing that primarily makes me disagree here: If a single Arkentool was capable of doing literally anything, why would the Titans need more than one? A single Tool could have created Erfworld by those standards. The fact that there are several, and they are displaying wildly diverging abilities, suggests that each Arkentool specialises in a specific area. Following that assumption, we speculate as to what the Fourth Arkentool does. Since it's hard to come up with a theory about something we have no information on, we've come up with a theory that specifically explains the lack of information we've had thus far. It aligns with the working theories while answering several questions.
If you've got an theory or argument that shoots that down, by all means go ahead. But saying "We don't know for sure!" is entirely beyond the point.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:51 am

Kreistor wrote:Prove that the 'Pliers are associated with Croakamancy and the 'Dish with Thinkamancy using your own standards of proof.


Why? I'm not in the business of putting people down on their theories about the Arkentools, nor (dis)proving such theories. Or you probably weren't referring to me, in which case the other posters have already answered.

Kreistor wrote:Sorry, I can dismiss that with a simple quote from the people setting the standard. Ansom is a warlord like Stanley and not an expert in Magic.


That line of mine you alluded to was put there to empathize with you; surely you'd be sympathetic with Stanley's plight, having forgotten just what it was about 13th Grade that made you feel so proud of yourself.

And there was no standard set, double or otherwise, for judging Arkentool theories. It suffices to remark that several reasonable ones have been proposed. You're the one who requires that we prove which one is correct and thereafter immediately abandon all other alternatives of inquiry, NOW.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Sieggy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:08 pm

Sigh. The 4th tool is obviously the Titan Army Knife . . . with infinite attachments.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Charlie isn't a Thinkamancer, guys.

I don't know what Charlie is, but I know for a fact that he isn't a Thinkamancer.

Book 2 - Text 38

There were many other such hidden mechanics. There were mental senses which could not even be described to a non-Thinkamancer. The most important of these was the ability to sense Grandiocosmic Strings, the conduits of all magic power in Erfworld.

Only Thinkamancers even knew they existed.


And a little later on, (emphasis mine)

She was sure that if the message were received, then the Thinkamancers would protect Parson's passage, for the same reason that her message must be coded in the first place.

That reason was not part of the close-knit fraternity of Thinkamancers, but it knew their secrets and more. That reason had the whole world by its G-Strings.

That reason called itself, "Charlie."


This isn't a reference to the Great Minds that Think Alike. She's talking about Thinkamancers in general. And Charlie isn't one of them.

That is the reason Maggie was encoding the message in her G-String to begin with: because Charlie isn't a Thinkamancer. He himself can't pluck G-Strings, therefore he couldn't read Maggie's message. He can use Thinkamancy through the 'Dish, but he isn't actually a Thinkamancer. This gives the real Thinkamancers some advantages (eg. passing coded messages that he can't read, among other things).

Knowing Thinkamancy and being able to use Thinkamancy are two different things. Charlie can walk the walk, but he isn't the real thing.
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