Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:16 am

It bears noting that we've had the time-in-Erfworld discussion before. I won't search through my umpteen billion posts, but I remember putting forth something to that effect, using fancy-schmancy words like "light-cone".

And in a shocking twist that will rock the universe and the forums, that theory I put forth was Kreistor-like- battlespace forms when interaction is a possibility. Being of a certain frame of mind, I looked into how that can be determined, and it's fairly easy. If two sides can reach some same hex, be it by units, spell effects or whatever a side can do to extend its influence, then they might interact that turn.

To me, the above seems easy to check, and also the only way that will make sense so as to avoid paradoxes.

It does have some problems, arguably minor ones. Arguably.

1) A side can reach very very far; much farther than it may realize, by using mount/relays. I must bring Erfsims again, because we've used such tactics there and they illustrate a point that's valid for Erfworld too. Suppose there's a max-move that your units have. Take a large, fast unit and make it carry another (the payload) and possibly even another mount for the payload. The large unit moves as far as it can go, then the mount and payload, with fresh full move continue (payload on the mount), finally the payload dismounts and continues on its way.

By the nature of the rules you'd expect the extended reach as described above to be granted only to small units, but it's a possible option, and if you don't care much for the payload's viability but do care about its reach (when it's a scout, say), you just as well might use this. The possibility is therefore for two sides to interact because their scouts could, maybe, meet, even though the bulk of armies are very very far away from each other.

2) A side can be within interacting range with two or more sides, none of which however is in interacting range of the other. All would be in the same battlespace. This isn't so bad, until you think that sides, at least on a continent, should be close enough that when you calculate who can directly interact with who, then glue together battlespaces that share at least one side, everything collapses into one battlespace all the time.

1) and 2) generate problems of flavour. Under a mild assumption* of side distribution in Erfworld, it should be the case that there is only one battlespace for a continent, which includes all sides in that continent.

*: the assumption: there is not too much no-mans-land between sides, so that at least by that kind of stage-rocket tactic, units could cross it in one turn. I consider this assumption mild because if there were such vast stretches of no-mans-land in the beginning, it would not be disputed so therefore easy to build cities** in, therefore would eventually disappear.

EDIT: **: I can't remember a new city being built though, not in Erfworld. So one may say that such an act is impossible, cities can only be claimed, or razed then rebuilt, which limits where cities may exist, which means a certain separation between sides may be kept. If the city-sites are also "clustered" then we have a natural explanation for Parson's comment that after a while it didn't pay off to capture new cities. If you cannot place cities at will in the area you conquer, but instead these are clumped in clusters with large distances between them, then it is the case that the border you need to defend could increase as fast or faster than the productive area your defenses are built from.

Housellama wrote:What happens when one Day needs to look into the information for a different Day? If all the bubbles are happening at the same time, and all Days are the same length of absolute time, how do you preserve information between the bubbles?


Hmm. I don't understand this question.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby raphfrk » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:28 am

Kreistor wrote:The Turn Order itself conveys information that can result in a different decision by the commander.Wanda says it near the end of Book 1: "No barbarians either." Turn at damn means no Barbarians in Battlespace. We call that Meta-information, and it can do nasty things to worlds like this.


Once the world has decided that an encounter will occur, then it is a Prediction and so it will occur one way or another.

Masennus wrote:The Sun rises at Dawn, and moves 1/nth of the way across the sky for each of the n events in its hex, then sets at Dusk.

I believe this system is completely consistent with canon, and also paradox-proof.


That would mean that the Sun would jump across the sky.

Also, when using a dragon relay, the Sun can jump backwards.

I think that the Sun position should be set based on the move of the troops in the hex.

If there are 5 sides (allies count as 1 side) in battlespace, then each gets 1/5 of the day. For each unit of the active side, you can express how much of the side's turn is left by (move remaining)/(total move). The amount of the turn remaining for that hex is set by the unit with the most time remaining.

For example, if there was 1 side in battlespace and a unit was using a relay, then it would go something like

Start
rider: 5/5
dwagon 50/50
Time: dawn

Half way to first change-over
dwagon 25/50
Time: midday

Before change-over
dwagon: 1/50
Time: almost dusk

Change-over
dwagon1: 0/50 (100% consumed)
dwagon2: 50/50 (0% consumed)
Time: Dawn (since the 2nd dwagon has more time)

End
dragon2: 0/50
Time: almost dusk

If the rider was to walk into another hex, it would be just after dawn again for the rider since it would be on 4/5 move.

I would exclude the rider from the calculation by having the rule be that the time for the hex is determined when a unit enters and so the rider is effectively part of the dwagon/rider unit when it enters each hex.

Also, there would need to be a rule that prevents time moving backwards in a hex. That might even be predictamancy, if the hex is going to be earlier later in the turn, it won't go past that point.

For example, the rider/dwagon might arrive at the end and see that it is midday, because another dwagon with 25/50 is about to arrive.

When there is battlespace, all of this is compressed into the potion of the day assigned to that side.

In theory, when a Ruler ends turn, it could redistribute some of the day to other sides.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Masennus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:49 am

The sun DOES jump across the sky (which is why I included those two lines in my theory.) I am posting from my phone or I would go get a link to the relevant summer update for you.

Under my theory presented earlier in this thread, there is a rule that prevents time from going backward in a hex. The sun position is tied to events in a specific hex, rather than a specific Unit. The sequence of events in atime is ordered. The subsequence experienced by each hex is also ordered. Imagine three dwagons pass through the same hex in the same turn, and nothing else happens in that hex. Dwagon A first, then Dwagon B, then Dwagon C. A experiences Dawn through about 10 am (by sun position) for that hex, B sees the sun go through midday, C sees sunset. None of the experiences the dwagons have in other hexes affect this at all.

There is no rule that says the sun only moves forward for each Unit. Depending on what has already happened in each hex they enter the sun can be anywhere.
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby Masennus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:22 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:It bears noting that we've had the time-in-Erfworld discussion before. I won't search through my umpteen billion posts, but I remember putting forth something to that effect, using fancy-schmancy words like "light-cone".

And in a shocking twist that will rock the universe and the forums, that theory I put forth was Kreistor-like- battlespace forms when interaction is a possibility. Being of a certain frame of mind, I looked into how that can be determined, and it's fairly easy. If two sides can reach some same hex, be it by units, spell effects or whatever a side can do to extend its influence, then they might interact that turn.


To me, the entire rules revelation of this update is that Battlespaces are chosen by Predictions of what DOES happen in a given Turn rather than what COULD happen.

That single sentence solves a lot of issues and paradoxes presented here.
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby Kreistor » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:54 am

Masennus wrote:The sun DOES jump across the sky (which is why I included those two lines in my theory.) I am posting from my phone or I would go get a link to the relevant summer update for you.


No, that is not what it says. The end of that sentence states that jumping only happens when someone is watching you from another Hex. If you are alone and unobserved, the sun does not jump.

There is no rule that says the sun only moves forward for each Unit. Depending on what has already happened in each hex they enter the sun can be anywhere.


ONLY if you are being observed from another hex.
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby splintermute » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:23 pm

Kreistor wrote:3. Commander Army B hits a hex with a scout in it, and unled scout attacks.

Another obvious problem with this model is the unled scout attacking - I think the scout special, like the leadership special (and the led attribute) allows a unit to decide not to attack. A scout that has to attack any enemy in its hex wouldn't be that useful. What might happen in this case is that the scout fails to notice the army passing through the hex, or the army fails to notice the scout - therefore no encounter, and no battlespace required.

Since battlespace is described as natural Predictomancy rather than Mathamancy, I'm inclined to think it kicks in only when an encounter WILL happen, not just when there's a possibility of an encounter.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Balerion » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:14 pm

Okay, this is all ignoring a simple solution that others have posted: Turns are ALWAYS sequential.

Time is relative though, so in the event that the sides which move before you do not interact with you, you will start your turn at dawn. When a side that moves earlier than you will interact with you, your time and that side's time now interact; your turn doesn't start at dawn and a Battlespace has formed.

If a side that moves after you will encounter your units, then when you end turn it does not become night, it instead becomes noon or similar, but they begin their turn at dawn as usual.

There is now no meta-information, no paradox to resolve. We just rely on the relative time mechanic which is already well known. This effect gets called natural predictamancy because the world seems to predict the interactions and delay turns accordingly. And if predictamancy is based off relative time like I guessed elsewhere, then that is exactly what is going on :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:16 pm

The trouble with sequential Turns is, well, the Magick Kingdom. The days would never end there if Sides never take Turns simultaneously.

Balerion wrote:You aren't putting yourself into their world. Here, yes; someone who wants to get paid for killing other people is generally viewed as unstable and in need of help. In Erfworld, it is the expected function of every unit; the entire purpose of popping units is to defend the side. Faq is an exception in that it has figured a way around the problem, mostly. Jillian's feelings are no more than happiness at fulfilling her intended purpose in the world.

Does that make the world suck? Somewhat. But that doesn't make Jillian a "villainous malefactor of the worst sort". As to the comment about raiding habits or propping up failing sides: one kingdom cannot change how the world functions. As far as they have to be concerned, the cycle of warfare exists and will always exist. They need to figure out a way to keep their own people as safe as possible within that world. If that means making units in other sides die, then fine; they are not among those they have a duty to protect. Her role in that is to earn Faq the money it needs to have something resembling a defensive force, so that it has a military option if the other protections fail.

Yes, people in Erfworld pop to serve or lead a Side. Some people for example, greatly strengthen their Side's by the honest method of mining, just one of many peaceful ways Erfians have of raising money. Whoever's managing their Capital has probably done more for their Side over the years then any Unit in the raiding party. Jillian is spitting on those people.

It's true, they can't help the World they're in. But they can avoid making things worse and laughing heartily while doing so. Saving a tiny Side from destruction means butchering more Cities and killing more people than letting it fall would. It means the war goes on and on and on, with the death toll mounting to the tens of thousands rather than the few hundreds who would have fallen otherwise. It may well be that there are no options available that are good. But that doesn't make the options she's taking moral. And she'd just as happily do it for sport.

SteveMB wrote:(Well, one reason. There's also the fact that there seems to be no concept of art or literature other than the trappings and libraries that pop into being with cities. Units may have some influence over the former (the Glorious Leader iconography of the repopped Gobwin Knob was Sizemore and Maggie's idea for building Stanley's confidence), but there doesn't seem to be any concept of individual creativity -- creation is something the Titans do. Sounds like it would be hell for a writer or artist....)

They do have poetry, not to mention all the Rhymes. Oh and Overlord Firebaugh's knowledge of politics filled books as I recall. What Casting Discipline is most likely to have responsibility for drawing pretty pictures?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Kreistor » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:26 pm

Balerion, when no one is in Batlespace, your turn runs dawn to dusk. For everyone in that situation, they are simultaneous.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Whispri wrote:The trouble with sequential Turns is, well, the Magick Kingdom. The days would never end there if Sides never take Turns simultaneously.


No. There will be one last side, and when that side's turn ends, then everyone's turn is over.

The purely-relative-time theory suggests that when you see someone else's turn start at dawn, then mere moments later is when one of you will begin observing the other. At least, observing the other's hex (though if the two sides do not observe each other or each others' effects, they can still have their time compressed ).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:43 pm

drachefly wrote:
Whispri wrote:The trouble with sequential Turns is, well, the Magick Kingdom. The days would never end there if Sides never take Turns simultaneously.
No. There will be one last side, and when that side's turn ends, then everyone's turn is over.

With sequential Turns, a single 'day' in the Magick Kingdom would last for hundreds, if not thousands of hours. A 'day' that lasts long enough for Barbarians to exhaust their food supplies and starve to death is as close to endless as makes no difference.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Balerion » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:35 pm

Time. Is. Relative.

There is not some objective "this much time has passed" meter except the turn counter. Just because side A consumes 15 hours for their turn means doesn't mean any impact has occurred on side B's perception of time, even if it has to follow side A. So a turn in the magical kingdom doesn't have to last thousands of hours just because thousands of hours get used by a whole bunch of other sides. The sun doesn't move at the same rate in different hexes; this is a known phenomena. Does working out when sides are there and their interactions there get interesting to sort out? Likely. But the relative time problem itself is rather interesting to sort out to begin with, so it is probably doable.

So sides that don't interact with anyone will think they started turn at dawn, and who is to say they didn't? There can be 50000 dawns in a single turn. What matters is how Erfworld itself is making sense of those relative timings and how it orders actual events without creating paradox; and a sequential turn order accomplishes that, while allowing minimal impact on sides that are not effected by others (re: no impact).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Amado » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:50 pm

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:56 pm

Wow, I sparked a lot of debate! Good, that was the intent.

Re: Potential paradox about Battlespaces and Turn order: No possible paradox exists. Why? Very simple answer. It's MAGIC.

With Stupidworld physics, things have to be explained and consistent. Math is not at all flexible. If a paradox appears, you've got a problem. In Erfworld however, we have a built in "hidden variable". It's booping Magic. Erfworld simply prevents any paradox from happening by magic. It's Natural Predictamancy. Since Erfworld already knows what's going to happen, a paradox is impossible because Erfworld would simply account for it before hand. This is the same answer to the 'problem' of the Magic Kingdom. There is no problem. Erfworld accounts for all possible problems beforehand. It's magic.

I wasn't trying to explain the mechanism behind Erfworld time. Just the behavior.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Housellama wrote: What happens when one Day needs to look into the information for a different Day? If all the bubbles are happening at the same time, and all Days are the same length of absolute time, how do you preserve information between the bubbles?


Hmm. I don't understand this question.


Referring to the potential paradox caused by things like Thinkagrams to other Sides or Lookamancy to peek at someone else. By the theory I proposed, all sides have turns that happen simultaneously, but the Days are not 'connected'. So someone in one bubble wanting to look in another bubble when neither bubble share the same relative time... That could cause issues. How does information transfer from one relative timespace to another without distortion or causing paradoxes? That's the problem I was seeing.

Re: Turn order. Kreistor, I'm well aware of Natural Turn Order. And correct me if I'm wrong, we don't know the mechanism behind that, do we? We know that a Turn Order exists. What we don't know is if there is anything that modifies that. Maybe it's always used, maybe it's not. My ideas weren't about Turn order. It was about Days and Turns and other things. As long as Turn Order happens, that's fine by me. Who goes first after the Battlespace is formed is a bit irrelevant for the ideas I was chasing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:02 pm

Balerion wrote:Time. Is. Relative.

There is not some objective "this much time has passed" meter except the turn counter. Just because side A consumes 15 hours for their turn means doesn't mean any impact has occurred on side B's perception of time, even if it has to follow side A. So a turn in the magical kingdom doesn't have to last thousands of hours just because thousands of hours get used by a whole bunch of other sides. The sun doesn't move at the same rate in different hexes; this is a known phenomena. Does working out when sides are there and their interactions there get interesting to sort out? Likely. But the relative time problem itself is rather interesting to sort out to begin with, so it is probably doable.

So sides that don't interact with anyone will think they started turn at dawn, and who is to say they didn't? There can be 50000 dawns in a single turn. What matters is how Erfworld itself is making sense of those relative timings and how it orders actual events without creating paradox; and a sequential turn order accomplishes that, while allowing minimal impact on sides that are not effected by others (re: no impact).

Casters visit the Magick Kingdom. Sometimes they stay for days. Days in which their Turns would pass. Turns in which they would spend hours doing things, like discussing the Space/Time Continuum. I mean, when has Portal Park ever been shown as anything but crowded? So yes, sequential Turns would mean 'days' lasting for months in the Magick Kingdom, no doubt reducing the Barbarian Casters to cannibalism before a single 'day' had passed.

Never mind that the RCC's Turn seems to have followed immediately after Gobwin Knob's Turn for Sizemore while he was in the Magick Kingdom. With sequential Turns, what are the odds of that happening?
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:33 pm

Masennus wrote:To me, the entire rules revelation of this update is that Battlespaces are chosen by Predictions of what DOES happen in a given Turn rather than what COULD happen.


Given that Predictamancy works, that suggestion certainly makes sense. I'm not entirely sure about how Jillian thinks she can avoid contact with a side though, if what triggers battlespace formation is the event that sides are F/fated to meet on that day.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:34 pm

Balerion wrote:Okay, this is all ignoring a simple solution that others have posted: Turns are ALWAYS sequential.

Time is relative though, so in the event that the sides which move before you do not interact with you, you will start your turn at dawn. When a side that moves earlier than you will interact with you, your time and that side's time now interact; your turn doesn't start at dawn and a Battlespace has formed.

If a side that moves after you will encounter your units, then when you end turn it does not become night, it instead becomes noon or similar, but they begin their turn at dawn as usual.

There is now no meta-information, no paradox to resolve. We just rely on the relative time mechanic which is already well known. This effect gets called natural predictamancy because the world seems to predict the interactions and delay turns accordingly. And if predictamancy is based off relative time like I guessed elsewhere, then that is exactly what is going on :D


Balerion, I get what you're saying, and I see why you are taking this position, but I think that your solution is more complex than it has to be. You suggest that there's a list somewhere (Natural Turn Order) that says that each Side-turn takes place one after another and that Magic takes care of the problems of Battlespaces.

We both agree that time in each bubble is relative to each other. So one Day doesn't have to be the same length as another Day. We both agree that some kind of Turn Order exists for Sides. We both agree that Magic takes care of Battlespaces. So let's walk through a Turn.

So we have a global Turn Start on Erfworld. Natural Magic scans and accounts for all necessary Battlespaces. Now we have all the Sides that aren't interacting, and each one of them gets their bubble. Okay, now all Sides have their relative time bubbles. Nothing has actually happened yet. Your suggestion is that Erfworld goes down the Turn Order list and processes each individual bubble separately. That runs into the problem of one Side interacting (through 'Mancy or whatever) with a Side that hasn't acted yet. Your proposed solution is that Erfworld uses Natural Magic to handle any paradoxes like that.

Okay, that's kind of a messy system. You've got things whirring back and forth between Global time (That is, the Turn Order) all over the place. Instead, of running the days in serial (one after another), it makes more sense to run each day in parallel (simultaneously). Turn order is still used to determine priority of messages and movements and whatever that move between bubbles. Mancy is still managing things between bubbles, but instead of moving through Global Time (where things might not have happened yet) all that's happening is that things are moving through relative time. It's a lot less messy, since we've already established that relative time in Erfworld is so bendy anyway.
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Re: Time and information transfer in Erfworld

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote: I'm not entirely sure about how Jillian thinks she can avoid contact with a side though, if what triggers battlespace formation is the event that sides are F/fated to meet on that day.


She can avoid detection. Like, what she was doing was keeping her gwiffons in the trees - if the elves hadn't spotted her, that would have been 'avoiding contact', from her point of view. She didn't talk to them, and if they didn't see her, even though they had contact according to the rules, it didn't affect anything. (It's equally possible for the a scout to pass through her hex and for neither side to notice the other, avoiding contact entirely even though an encounter happened). That's what she was hoping for, I think.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:54 pm

Whispri wrote: A 'day' that lasts long enough for Barbarians to exhaust their food supplies and starve to death is as close to endless as makes no difference.



This keeps being repeated, but I don't think it makes any sense. Food gets eaten not by time in hours, but by time in turns. Even if a day lasted endlessly, you wouldn't starve because upkeep is paid by turn, not by time. Isn't that how erfworld works?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:57 pm

ftl wrote:She can avoid detection.


Again, quite plausible. But a bit imo inelegant. Wouldn't the nat.pred. that decides whether battlespaces are formed or not also know whether detection happens this turn or not? It may not, but that just sounds klutzy. If we decide that the world works such that nat.pred. is accurate enough to know whether contact will happen or not, so as to always correctly decide whether to form a battlespace or not, why not extend this to whatever even actually makes the battlespace needed?

Because it's magic, that's why, and it does(n't) whatever it wants, of course. Not a very pretty answer though.
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