Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

[mortissimus]

I wonder how bad the penalty for too many cities really is.

50 cities is apparently "unthinkable" under normal circumstances.

There was a version of Civilization -- I don't remember which one -- which had a similar penalty. If your empire grew too large, your new, pathetic, size 1 cities could be costing ten times more than they were producing. I think there was another version that had a "corruption" mechanic, where the further away from your capital a city was, the more of its income would be lost to "corruption."

Corruption was Civ3.

Civ3 had the crippling cost (and yes, it was called corruption). Could be partly solved by getting a great general through warfare and using him to enact Forbidden paace. Civ1 and Civ2 had distance corruption as percentage of production and money from that city, but that could be completedly solved by enacting democracy, which in turn banned you form starting wars. If I remember correctly, that is.

[raphfrk]

I'm assuming the Arkenhammer works the same way, with zero-upkeep dwagons (flying, mountable heavies with special attacks!) except getting Dwagons seems a bit more involved. You actually have to go out and Tame them to get any sizable number. But Parson figured out how to do that efficiently -- Stanley is getting multiple Dwagons every turn.

There is no suggestion that dwagons are upkeep free, that is a special feature of decrypted. However, you can't create decrypted without getting other units somehow. The hammer's taming mechanic allows you produce high grade units faster than you could do with just cities.

But I'm starting to really think that there's some truth to the mystical view of the Toolists that any size which obtains and attunes to ALL the Arkentools will unite and rule all of Erfworld. They allow sides to break the rules, to escape the limiting factors that normally prevent such a thing.

Perhaps each tool bypasses different limitations. The dish might also allow a much larger number of units to be coordinated. Currently, the large number of units that GK has is making juice conservation harder for Maggie.

In civilisation, there was a "single city strategy". This was based on winning the game with just 1 city. Maybe holding all the tools would allow a side to decouple its strength from the number of cities it holds.

[mortissimus]

Well, an obvious strategy to counter diminishing returns is to raze rather then conquer.

When you have razed everything but the cities you control, you have won. Trick is just to get there without the rest of the world ganging up on you.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Then go play some Total War, where there's barbarians, but a side that loses all cities can still endure as a marauding horde, that still counts as its own side.

Erfworld barbarians can't maintain a horde. Sides have treasuries, barbarians have purses - max 1000 gold/ level.

Contrast with Civilization, where if you lose all your cities, you're toast, plain and simple. So actualy the perfect oposite of Erfworld (after all, we've never seen randomly spawned barbarians in all the story).

Rob has already stated that there are randomly-spawned barbarians, but he didn't include them in the story to avoid "deus ex machina" accusations.

In Erfworld a side can exist whitout cities, and Jillian is a living example of that.

All I'm trying to say is that a "side" in Erfworld has a specific meaning: it has a capital, a ruler, a treasury, a link to the Magic Kingdom. Jillian, as a barbarian, is not a side. She has the potential to start a new side, in the same way that a royal that already belonging to a side can split into a new side. But neither one is a side until they claim a capital.

-Stanley kept a freaking dwagon fleet after GK fell to treason.
-Even then, barbarians are not a whole faction like in civilization. Each barbarian group is its own side.
-Says who? It's only you claiming you need a capital to become a side.

And here's the proof:

Some sides have no capital, no cities, no royals

And from this page:
So what happens if Stanley is croaked? he has no heir, so our side ends.

And the final nail in the coffin:

But the King was very fond of Stanley, so he did something that rarely happens. He promoted Stanley to Heir Designate, at great expense.
That way, when the capital fell, it wasn't the end of our side.


Reading actual comic. It does wonders.

TL, DR: Erfworld sides are not dependant in freaking capitals. They're dependant on their leaders.

[Armagdon]

I have a question, which I`m not sure if its been answered or even looked into. But what if Haffaton IS Gobwin Knob? It could follow that Haffaton, due to its size is forced to either split up into multiple sides, or that it gets slowly eaten away by neighbouring sides.
On one hand, we have Wanda who is part of the Haffaton side now, although wether or not she will be the poison her father wanted her to be is yet to be seen, it is a possibility that she will somehow betray Haffaton to FAQ.
Another point of interest lies in the colours of the Haffaton units, mainly their black and white uniforms. At first I thought about a species in Star Trek (unrelated), but then I had a flashback to K.I.S.S...werent their uniforms also black and white?
But then again, I could be grasping at straws here, finding connections where there are none....

-Armagdon

[Zeku]

Different unit types

GK has gobwins as their native creatures, Haffaton has elves. Too dissimilar. That doesn't mean they can't overlap, however.

[Armagdon]

True, I had forgotten about the natural allies rules...hmm»
But then again, allies can change. There may be betrayal on the horizon..
Plus Charlie, who knows what hes up to at this point in time?
(I do think it would be in his best interest to dismantle a huge side like Haffaton)
Or maybe Gobwin Knob is a faction that split off...
Time will tell I suppose...

[Keighvin1]

-Stanley kept a freaking dwagon fleet after GK fell to treason.
-Even then, barbarians are not a whole faction like in civilization. Each barbarian group is its own side.
-Says who? It's only you claiming you need a capital to become a side.

And here's the proof:

Some sides have no capital, no cities, no royals

And from this page:
So what happens if Stanley is croaked? he has no heir, so our side ends.

And the final nail in the coffin:

But the King was very fond of Stanley, so he did something that rarely happens. He promoted Stanley to Heir Designate, at great expense.
That way, when the capital fell, it wasn't the end of our side.


Reading actual comic. It does wonders.

TL, DR: Erfworld sides are not dependant in freaking capitals. They're dependant on their leaders.

Your first example deals with natural allies, which as far as we know only applies to beings that could never actually form a legitimate side, not barbarians since each barbarian group is dependent on a purse not a unified treasury.

As MarbitChow said a side requires both a leader and a capital, which may mean simply at least one city that can be upgraded. If Stanley goes, the side ends without an heir. In the Saline IV example, there were still cities left, so the side never fell.

With both Jillian and Wanda,the side ended when there was no longer a city left. They can start a new side, as Jillian did, but it is not a continuation of the old side.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Your first example deals with natural allies, which as far as we know only applies to beings that could never actually form a legitimate side, not barbarians since each barbarian group is dependent on a purse not a unified treasury.

As MarbitChow said a side requires both a leader and a capital, which may mean simply at least one city that can be upgraded. If Stanley goes, the side ends without an heir. In the Saline IV example, there were still cities left, so the side never fell.

With both Jillian and Wanda,the side ended when there was no longer a city left. They can start a new side, as Jillian did, but it is not a continuation of the old side.

Nice try, but we know that you cannot just upgrade a city to a capital. Only specific locations can serve as capitals, and there's no proof anywhere that Stanley controled such a location when his capital fell. Thus it's proven that Gobwin Knob kept existing whitout a capital. And also Jillian's own side endured because she was an heir herself.

Really, what more do you need? It's written right there "capital was lost, side kept existing because there was still a leader". It doesn't get more explicit than that.

[onlyme]

I've no strong opinion whether there is a definition of side that includes babarians.
(Though we know of at least one barbarian princess that only got queen after founding
a city, if anyone still remembers where this started).

And here's the proof:

Some sides have no capital, no cities, no royals

So there is a definition of side that includes tribes.

And from this page:
So what happens if Stanley is croaked? he has no heir, so our side ends.

That is totally unrelated. It goes on about the city going neutral. So it is about a side
losing it's ruler without an heir ending even if it still had a city. Noone claimed that
a city is enough to be a side, unless I missed some posts here...

And the final nail in the coffin:

But the King was very fond of Stanley, so he did something that rarely happens. He promoted Stanley to Heir Designate, at great expense.
That way, when the capital fell, it wasn't the end of our side.

I guess it is safe to assume that there were more cities there. So Stanley was not barbarian
but got ruler of a side with multiple cities left.

The question if a side needs to have a captial is open. Either another city gets capital instantly
(like the eternal palace ruleset in the lately so often cited familiy of civilisation games), or
there can be a side with cities but temporarily without capital.

I assume that "when the capital fell" means when the old King died. (I guess you agree).

Reading actual comic. It does wonders.

If I were to fall for this trolling, would I have to answer: "Understanding it, helps, too." ?

[Kreistor]

In Stupid World the "shell" defense only works to slow down smuggling and is totally useless against an invasion.

Trenches. Front Line. Dover vs. Louis. Yeah, the eggshell defense was common, because it worked, still works, and will continue to work. No one can afford the cost of defending everywhere.

-Stanley kept a freaking dwagon fleet after GK fell to treason.
-Even then, barbarians are not a whole faction like in civilization. Each barbarian group is its own side.
-Says who? It's only you claiming you need a capital to become a side.

And we now know he would lose all except those in his immediate stack when GK fell. He took all of them, and we don't know exactly why.

Barbarians are barbarians and move simultaneously with each other.

And, it's called "Capital Side". We shorten it to "Side" for convenience. If you check all of the original Chaacter Info splash pages, they have "Captial" listed, not "Side"

ome sides have no capital, no cities, no royals

And the examples listed are all Natural Allies. It goes on to say "Have their own treasuries", which we now know Natural Allies can not have. At this point, Parson does not have complete knowledge of the details and differences between Barbarians, Natural Allies, and Alliances, so the paragraph is demonstrably flawed and so cannot be used as evidence. Parson's knowledge is clarified later in the Book and our knowledge is clarified further in the updates.

Look, they were a Barbarian Side between the fall and recapture of GK. They were not a Capital Side. When people talk about Side, they generally mean Capital Side. This whole argument is just a discussion of semantics.

When you are a Barbarian, you operate under a different set of Rules, and we know that for certain. Your treasury is based on the Warlord's Level. The Warlord is not titled with Ruler (Overlord or King/Queen). Moves during Barbarian Turn, simultaneous with other Barbarians. There are probably others. You probably can only capture a Capital Site, not non-Capital cities (though you could probably Raze them, or extort schmuckers out of them). Etc. Different set of Rules. Means they need a different terminology. Calling both "Capital Sides" and "Barbarian Sides" simply "Sides" is confusing, since it has completely different rules attached. Rob seems to use "Side" as short for "Capital Side" and never for "Barbarian Side"

So, yes, it's a SIde, but it's not a Capital Side. And getting caught up in semantics when we know the terms have different mechanics is fundamentally problematic, and will lead to future confusion.

[onlyme]

And also Jillian's own side endured because she was an heir herself.

And from Wanda's situation we know that losing the last city means field units
disband (which we otherwise know to happen at the end of a side, and it cannot
have been because of upkeep as they were uncroaked and exactly her stack survived).

Nice try, but we know that you cannot just upgrade a city to a capital. Only specific locations can serve as capitals,

Do you have a quote for that? (Not that I do not believe you, just too lazy to look. There really is a page
will all the text missing).

and there's no proof anywhere that Stanley controled such a location when his capital fell. Thus it's proven that Gobwin Knob kept existing whitout a capital.

While I do not claim that sides need capital, we know you need cities.
And if you claim a side can survive without a capital, you have to prove they had no other city getting capital,
not the other way around.
(And given that he had found the arcenhammer (most likely when expanding the empire as a warlord) and had had this for some time (he only got promoted afterwards) it is likely they had a couple of cities so it is not very unlikely some of them might even have been a capital of another side earlier).

Really, what more do you need? It's written right there "capital was lost, side kept existing because there was still a leader". It doesn't get more explicit than that.

You claim it says "no longer had a capital" and that is not written there at all.

[Whispri]

Different unit types

GK has gobwins as their native creatures, Haffaton has elves. Too dissimilar. That doesn't mean they can't overlap, however.

We don't actually know what Units Haffaton's Capital pops though. Or indeed, how a freshly created Side's Capital's Unit Lists are decided. If Wanda founds a Side over Spacerock, would her new Side pop the same Units as Jetstone did, or would Goodminton's Units make a return? If the former, then the differences simply don't matter. And if the latter, well Stanley did reform the Side of Gobwin Knob.

Haffaton employing Elves won't force Successor Sides to do the same. Natural Allies can be sacked, so Haffaton could end up working with Gobwins before the end.

[mortissimus]

onlyme,
I don't know where in all updates it originated but "capitol site" (as in city that can be a capitol) has been mentioned for some time now.

[name lips]

The arguments seem to favor a Side needing at least "a" city. Or else Wanda would have remained an Overlord after Goodminton's last city fell.

But the Stanley example seems to favor a side not requiring a Capital specifically. Otherwise he would have become a barbarian when GK, under Saline IV, fell.

Unless, of course, Stanley DID become a barbarian when GK fell, and simply flew his stack back to GK before upkeep came up due, reconquered it, and re-established his side.

[splintermute]

This could be resolved if we make a distinction between barbarians - there are barbarian barbarians, that can spawn spontaneously, and there are Barbarian barbarians, who are heirs and their stacks that persist after their side has fallen, like Stanley and his dwagons between the death of Saline and the retaking of Gobwin Knob, Jillian and her gwiffons between the death of Banhammer and the resettlement of Faq, and Wanda from the fall of Goodminton to the present. The whole point of heirs is that they act as proto-sides - if you give them a capital, they'll resurrect their side, the way Jillian's New Faq is capable of spawning megalogwiffs, and Stanley's New GK (old GK having fallen with Saline) can spawn spidews. If Wanda ever breaks from GK and finds her own capital, it should be a continuation of Goodminton, capable of spawning brontoswords.

[Housellama]

In Stupid World the "shell" defense only works to slow down smuggling and is totally useless against an invasion.

Trenches. Front Line. Dover vs. Louis. Yeah, the eggshell defense was common, because it worked, still works, and will continue to work. No one can afford the cost of defending everywhere.

And you will notice that in WW2, the French's eggshell Maginot Line did them a lot of good. There's a reason that trench warfare as a major thing ended in WW1.

The concept is called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth"]Defense in depth[/url]. In a good war, the last thing you want is a front line. If you have a static front line, that means you're failing. Either your front line should be moving forward, or you should have no one attacking you and therefore no need for a front line. Modern armies and military theory leans very heavily toward attacks that are immediate, pinpoint accurate and overwhelming. By the time the problem has time to hit the newspapers, the military wants to be saying "What problem?". In this kind of environment, the best defense is a good offense. However, the same things that make that good offense make for a great defense as well. Speed, mobility and instant deployment means that you can concentrate the power anywhere you need it, rather than putting it in a nice convenient place for the enemy to avoid.

In terms of Erfworld, I very much suspect that this would be Haffaton's approach. Their goal would be to slow the enemy's advance to a crawl with hippymancy until either a large force could obliterate it or they absorbed it. Defense in depth would also be Parson's strategy of choice. With the Dwagon relays, in theory they could get a lot of force to a specific spot pretty quickly. Slow the enemy down and use attrition tactics til Wanda could get on the scene with enough force to start the Decryption wave tactic.

Parson would absolutely love to go against an eggshell. Have one force penetrate fast and hard into the enemy territory, messing things up behind the lines. When the eggshell starts to turn itself inside out, slam it with another force from the outside. Either they turn and defend against the incoming force and let the elites wreck their supply lines, or they abandon their territory to the incoming army to go defend the insides. At that point, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

The point being that even in Erfworld, against a force with any kind of mobility at all, an eggshell is useless, and in fact worse than useless.

[Kreistor]

And you will notice that in WW2, the French's eggshell Maginot Line did them a lot of good. There's a reason that trench warfare as a major thing ended in WW1.

No, it did work. The Germans did NOT attack the Maginot line to invade France. It achieved its goal. The flaw was that they were not able to extend it along the Belgium border (prevented by politics in the inter-war period), and so it was NOT complete. (BTW, few know that the Germans actually did attack the Maginot line, with bombers and heavy artillery. They just didn't try to push troops through. Vast stretches were destroyed.) The French were fighting the last War, and hadn't built well for WW2, but it's hard to fault them too much for not predicting the future of warfare. No one got it entirely right. The Germans overcomplicated the engineering and missed sloped armor and couldn't believe someone could break their codes. The Americans couldn't design a decent tank, but could build floods of them. The Russians built pretty good tanks, but messed up their Officer Corps with politics. The French had great tanks, but no concept of how to use them. And the English just didn't have many forces in the first place, but figured out Radar, ASDIC, and code breaking.

On Defense in Depth:

Yes, and that's what I was talking about in the first place.

The other trick is only available to extremely large Sides. Sides that are excessively large do not need more than minimal defenses to stop Barbarian attacks on Cities deep inside the borders. You basically only need to keep strong defenses in the outer band of cities, and scout it very well.

Which is exactly Defense in Depth, as you just described. A "band" is not a "line", and I did not state exactly how deep the band needed to be. (2x flier Move from "border", I'd say, so around 130 hexes based on Dwagons and gwiffon ranges of 56.)

So what's your problem with what I said? You just created a wall of text for a strawman argument that had nothing to do with what I said in the first place.

[Housellama]

And you will notice that in WW2, the French's eggshell Maginot Line did them a lot of good. There's a reason that trench warfare as a major thing ended in WW1.

No, it did work. The Germans did NOT attack the Maginot line to invade France. It achieved its goal. The flaw was that they were not able to extend it along the Belgium border (prevented by politics in the inter-war period), and so it was NOT complete. (BTW, few know that the Germans actually did attack the Maginot line, with bombers and heavy artillery. They just didn't try to push troops through. Vast stretches were destroyed.) The French were fighting the last War, and hadn't built well for WW2, but it's hard to fault them too much for not predicting the future of warfare. No one got it entirely right. The Germans overcomplicated the engineering and missed sloped armor and couldn't believe someone could break their codes. The Americans couldn't design a decent tank, but could build floods of them. The Russians built pretty good tanks, but messed up their Officer Corps with politics. The French had great tanks, but no concept of how to use them. And the English just didn't have many forces in the first place, but figured out Radar, ASDIC, and code breaking.

... If you call France getting invaded a functional success. The Maginot Line's ultimate function was the same as any defensive strategy: to defend. I'd say that was a failure. Sure, the Germans blew it up but it was built to stop troops, and I'm sure it was very good at it. But the Germans didn't attack it like that, so it's kind of a moot point. A fortress than no one attacks is pretty booping useless. And in the end, France still fell.

On Defense in Depth:

Yes, and that's what I was talking about in the first place.

The other trick is only available to extremely large Sides. Sides that are excessively large do not need more than minimal defenses to stop Barbarian attacks on Cities deep inside the borders. You basically only need to keep strong defenses in the outer band of cities, and scout it very well.

Which is exactly Defense in Depth, as you just described. A "band" is not a "line", and I did not state exactly how deep the band needed to be. (2x flier Move from "border", I'd say, so around 130 hexes based on Dwagons and gwiffon ranges of 56.)

So what's your problem with what I said? You just created a wall of text for a strawman argument that had nothing to do with what I said in the first place.

*facepalm* You said eggshells work. Sure. In certain circumstances, they work great. And yes, a band will do better than a simple eggshell. But even a band isn't Defense In Depth (DiD). That's just a thicker eggshell. DiD is multiple layers of different kinds of defenses. DiD means having guys on the walls, plus heavies behind the lines, plus air support, plus highly mobile reinforcements available to deploy at hotspots. Not to mention physical barriers and other security measures as well. DID is an entire defensive strategy. Not just "strong defenses in the outer bands of cities." A good DiD plan would have an outer band, yes. It would also have a secondary line about three to five turns behind that, then another stronger defense line around the most valuable cities.

Here's the problem with a band. Even a band of we'll say three moves from the border, a full turn move thicker than your example. If I had to pierce a ring and I knew that there wasn't much inside, I'd have a very highly mobile force, something that could cover that band in three to four moves. I'd also have a secondary force that was heavier and slower. Say it takes five to six turns to cross the band. I'd send the secondary force in first. Let them hammer away at the band, get maybe a full one turn move distance in, a third of the way there. Sure, they are taking casualties, but that's their point. Once they are a third of the way in, my strike force comes through hauling tail. Since they started one turn move in, they cover the band in two turns. They don't stop at all, they just move as fast as they can. If units get engaged, they shed them and keep going. Even if just a small squad of fast and tough get through, you've got a real problem.

That's is exactly what DiD is built to stop. Say you've got a second ring a few more turn-moves in. Sure, I might get my strike force through, but unless they are really tough, that second ring is going to slow them down enough to give you time to get your troops together and deal with them. And even if they do make it through the second band, they are going to pay for it. It's going to weaken them enough that you can deal with the survivors.

A good DiD strategy is pretty much exactly the opposite of an eggshell. It gets harder as you go in. The deeper the enemy penetrates, the more force you are bringing to bear. Like thick jelly. Sure, you can go through the first layer or two without much of a problem, but then you slow down, whereas their defenses are just getting started. Eggshells crack. That's what happened with the French. They built their eggshell and the Germans, like any good army, simply ignored it. They found a crack and at that point it was all over but the crying. Russia on the other hand, pretty much perfected the DiD. The Germans marched in, but they sure as boop didn't march back out. (Although really, invading Russia in the winter isn't exactly a masterstroke of planning anyway.)

So no, not a strawman. Defense in Depth is simply not what you were talking about.

[Balerion]

You have to adjust that defense in depth with the consideration of both upkeep and unit production though. Because you can feasibly pop an army at a turn's notice, the necessity of a powerful standing army is somewhat diminished. And I think the dramatic lack of income you have is going to make a standing army of any magnitude very difficult to maintain.

I still like the strategy I posted, which deals with some of those concerns, but if the central cities are all level 4-5, an eggshell could respond to breaches in time (especially with the hippymancer to slow things down; your strike team is in deep shit if she gets a spell off on them, and the surrounding territory starts filling with units as production is started). I would be curious about the distances involved as well; most likely even 50 move units would need several turns to reach critical locations at Haffaton's current size.

And the advantage of an eggshell is that it could earn you money from razing faster, as you have more troops on the front. I think that has diplomatic implications which will doom you in the long run, but I think it could reasonably be done.