Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Housellama » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 am

Balerion wrote:You have to adjust that defense in depth with the consideration of both upkeep and unit production though. Because you can feasibly pop an army at a turn's notice, the necessity of a powerful standing army is somewhat diminished. And I think the dramatic lack of income you have is going to make a standing army of any magnitude very difficult to maintain.

I still like the strategy I posted, which deals with some of those concerns, but if the central cities are all level 4-5, an eggshell could respond to breaches in time (especially with the hippymancer to slow things down; your strike team is in deep shit if she gets a spell off on them, and the surrounding territory starts filling with units as production is started). I would be curious about the distances involved as well; most likely even 50 move units would need several turns to reach critical locations at Haffaton's current size.

And the advantage of an eggshell is that it could earn you money from razing faster, as you have more troops on the front. I think that has diplomatic implications which will doom you in the long run, but I think it could reasonably be done.


All of these are true. You have to adjust your defensive strategy for any economic conditions. Without more details, I wouldn't be willing to say one particular setup for DiD is better than any others.

Now, when you add Hippymancy to the mix, you get a lot more options. With a large production capability, an eggshell built with hippymancy on the outside could be a very viable strategy. Boop, from what I've seen, hippymancy is a gift from the Titans for a smart general. I could go on for pages about the ways I could exploit Flower Power.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Kreistor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:43 am

Housellama wrote:... If you call France getting invaded a functional success. The Maginot Line's ultimate function was the same as any defensive strategy: to defend. I'd say that was a failure. Sure, the Germans blew it up but it was built to stop troops, and I'm sure it was very good at it. But the Germans didn't attack it like that, so it's kind of a moot point. A fortress than no one attacks is pretty booping useless. And in the end, France still fell.


And that was not the fault of the Maginot Line. It was a problem with POLITICS. Politics prevented teh ML from covering the entry through Belgium, and that was not something the French could solve.

You are trying to give the French the motivation "The Germans must attack the Maginot Line to invade" for building the ML. That was NOT the goal of the line. The goal of the ML was to "Prevent the Germans from invading anywhere that the ML existed." And in that it succeeded 100%. Despite it's destruction, it was still a functional defense. The Germans never invaded across the Line, so it achieved all it could possibly achieve.

And, guys, the reason I'm discussing this at all is to reiterate Parson's point. Knowing your goal and what you can achieve is VITAL. The French were fully aware that Belgium wasn't covered by the ML and that was worrisome because in WW1, the Germans invaded through Belgium. They wanted to build to the sea, but were not allowed to. It was a failure of the Belgians to accept that the French needed a Line across all borders the Germans might invade from that caused Belgium to be invaded.

*facepalm* You said eggshells work. Sure. In certain circumstances, they work great. And yes, a band will do better than a simple eggshell.


Pure semantics. 1009% spin job/Strawman. We're talking about a defensive Line, vs. Defending everywhere in your territory equally. The thickness of the line is irrelevant, it's still an eggshell.

But even a band isn't Defense In Depth (DiD). That's just a thicker eggshell. DiD is multiple layers of different kinds of defenses.


You're just arguing semantics. Get over it. A campfire is not one stick on fire: it is all the sticks on fire. A defense is not jsut one tank ditch, but the tank ditch, the trench, the camo'ed artillery miles back, and everything else that can stop the attackers.

DiD means having guys on the walls, plus heavies behind the lines, plus air support, plus highly mobile reinforcements available to deploy at hotspots.


Again, semantics. They came up with a fancy term for things that had been done for millenia, and suddenly everyone taht used it before hadn't ? Hardly.

And your example of defending a castle is not relevant. Castles (unlike a walled city) are defended to the inner sanctum of the keep at the center, and while an example of a defense in depth, not an example of defending a nation. Another Strawman, but one I'll use against you later. We are talking about having a massive amount of terrain and defending just the frontier in strength, with the added issue of having some effect that causes problems with economy of scale which affects the number of units available to defend with.

Here's the problem with a band. Even a band of we'll say three moves from the border, a full turn move thicker than your example. If I had to pierce a ring and I knew that there wasn't much inside, I'd have a very highly mobile force, something that could cover that band in three to four moves.


1. How do you get past the scouts or magical defenses? Transylvito bats can hide in Jetstone without Slately knowing, so how do you know you even got one move in without me knowing about it?
2. How do you know how deep my band is? I'm not telling you, and if you've tortured it out of one of my units, we're at war. You sure you want to dump all your defenses to attack me? Any unit attacking me, is one not defending you.
3. How do you know what kind of reactionary force I am using to respond to breakthroughs? You know my defenses are weak past the border region, but you don't know the type of defenders I have chosen, nor what kind of forces I have kept to deal with Barbarians.

Do you know what I would do? I've said before that the most frustrating thing is doing nothing. Three turns pass as you race past my "defenses". Well, on my Turn, your force finds someone waving at you from the other side of a Hex wall. Holds up a sign that says, "Parley?" If yes, he'll come and talk. If not, he'll hold up signs. What does he say? "How's it hanging?" and then goes away. What do you do? Keep going deeper knowing that I know about you?

4. How are you going to defend your Side's cities which I just marched on? Need I remind that if you're not an Heir, when I smash your Side, you disband? If you're 4 Moves into my territory, that means I have 4 Moves of smashing your Side's weakened defenses. If it takes me three Moves to get to your Capital, then it will take you 7 to get back. I merely have to wait to launch my attack until you're too deep to defend against my attack, and then I get a Capital out of it, and anything you had occupied becomes Neutral.
5. You're the aggressor, so I can use that against your Side to demonstrate that I am only defending myself against your aggression to your neighbours who suddenly get nervous that I'm attacking you. You just handed me an excuse to expand my holdings.

No... no, I don't think it's quite as easy as you suggest. An invasion of that depth has repercussions, and no matter how successful. it would be quite Pyrrhic. You might Raze a couple cities, but you're not a serious threat. You're trapped the moment you show me where you are by attacking the first one. You cannot build units, so you slowly whittle away and die.

I'd also have a secondary force that was heavier and slower. Say it takes five to six turns to cross the band. I'd send the secondary force in first.


Yeah, you're forgetting that this is asymmetric warfare, and I AM MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU. You just emptied your cities, started a war, and I'm taking your cities. I don't need to fight your armies, if you have no Capital. And I am MASSIVE. You aren't. I have MANY Capital sites. You get near the current one, I move it. I concentrate on wrecking your Siege, and you're nothing. Unlike GK, I have the capacity to replace losses. I CAN do the dwagon trick (albeit with gwiffons or some other unit), and leave you 6 Turns inside my territory with no capacity to harm anything but a Level 1 city. You can't replace losses.

Let them hammer away at the band, get maybe a full one turn move distance in, a third of the way there. Sure, they are taking casualties, but that's their point.


How very uncreative you are. I WANT you deep in my territory, useless without siege, so when I am on the last turn of taking your Capital, I can offer you the chance to Turn, instead of disbanding.

And Haffaton thinks this way. They let Goodminton play with their castles as if they had a serious chance of any kind of Victory. They saved their own Side losses by letting Frenemy and Quisling have the city itself. They don't fight what they don't need to fight.

Even if just a small squad of fast and tough get through, you've got a real problem.


Siege ain't fast. So, no, they're no threat. Air will get whittled away by Tower defenses, so every attack reduces their capacity to attack.

That's is exactly what DiD is built to stop.


That's what the string of Forts were designed to stop, too, and that hundreds of years ago. Forts protect the garrison, AND ITS MOUNTS. Forts were protection for the horse borne forces that would be YOUR problem. Once you pass those forts, you're blind, deaf, and dumb, and restricted to whatever food you can steal from my people. You may have more forces than my nearest fort, but you're not getting any messages, because I CAN handle a small force for reporting.

This is the way it worked, conceptually. You cross the forts, either attack one or bypass, and I set the signal fires. Or tonight's signal fire doesn't get lit at the right time. Either way, the neighbouring forts know you've crossed the line that day. They light up, and down the line, the lights go on. Each fort sends it's mobile forces in the direction fo trouble. So where once I had a small force in one fort, now I have gathered a large cavalry force that had been spread across all the forts. You outnumbered one Fort, but not them all, and mine are mounted and mobile. Dealing with you from then on, depends specifically on your make up. I may have to call up the various forces garrisoned around the nation, or if you're small and not mounted, the horse could deal with you alone.

[quote[Say you've got a second ring a few more turn-moves in.[/quote]

Why would I want a "ring"? Every city has some defenses. I just wait until you hit one city, which tells me EXACTLY where you are, and all the cities outside two or three turn attack radius shed some defenders, and they congregate as six small armies around you. Scout units fill the circle, and now you can't get out without me knowing where you are, making my intel increasingly superior. What I exactly do depends on overall strategy, and are too numerous to list.

A good DiD strategy is pretty much exactly the opposite of an eggshell.


No, it's still an eggshell. Compare the thickness of the Kursk DiD to the entire size of the USSR. Definitely an eggshell.

Wow, man, you're way off base on what I was saying.

It gets harder as you go in. The deeper the enemy penetrates, the more force you are bringing to bear. Like thick jelly.


And that's expensive. First, your major defenses are not being engaged often, if ever, and so are not leveling. And on the outskirts, you're weak, so those forces die and don't level. Further, your major forces are far from the frontier and have to mobilize before they can do any attacking, whereas forces on the border can launch on the enemy immediately.

Sure, you can go through the first layer or two without much of a problem, but then you slow down, whereas their defenses are just getting started.


That's where I turn Left, and eat away your outer layer for the easy profit. Make you pay for being foolish with your defenses. You're weak outside, so I attack the outside. If I see a major buildup, I run.

Eggshells crack.


Again, not a part of the analogy, but yes, they do and you plan for that. Like I said, I did NOT deploy anyone on any front when I posted that description, so your assumption that I can only think little line of forts/castles stnading there to get sieged because I used the word "eggshell" is Strawman. Defense in Depth is a modern catch phrase for concepts that are ancient. You showed that it is ancient, with your analogy of a castle's defenses. Fight on Outer wall, and fall back to Inner. Lose on Inner, fall back to Keep. Kill in entryway, on the stairs to entry, and from murderholes in the passage to Inner Keep. (I think I'm describing Dover Castle. Not 100% certain... seen a few castles on documentaries recently.))

That's what happened with the French. They built their eggshell and the Germans, like any good army, simply ignored it.


The French KNEW the ML was incomplete and they were desperately trying to build the rest of it during the Phony War. They needed 2 years, unfortunately. But in the end, the maginot Line did it's job. And it wasn't a matter of just "going around", because the Germans ran iinto the lion's share of teh French and English forces that outnumbered the Germans more than 2:1. That was no soft eggshell they drove into, but the massed might of two nations' armies. An eggshell of a different type.

Further, the Maginot Line was a DiD. It wasn't just the massive structure, but also the location of the army bases behind it. Those were mostly emptied to defend the Belgium border during Phony War, though.

They didn't "Find a crack". They fought two armies instead of crossing a line. Conceptually, pre-war, that was stupid.

They found a crack and at that point it was all over but the crying.


Inventing Combined Arms is NOT the same as "finding a crack". You're talking like the Germans didn't fight through two armies to win that part of the war.

And it most certainly was NOT easy. It was brilliant strategy, and a demonstration of tactics learned on mock battlefields with the Soviets in the early 30's. And it could have failed for any number of reasons. The German Panzer 2's and 3's were much weaker than the French tanks, so if some wise officer figured out how to fight, they could have been brought to a screeching halt.

Russia on the other hand, pretty much perfected the DiD. The Germans marched in, but they sure as boop didn't march back out. (Although really, invading Russia in the winter isn't exactly a masterstroke of planning anyway.)


The Soviets lost millions of men learning how to defend against tanks. But you're wrong. The best defenders were the Germans. They made the Allies pay and pay for every yard. Look at the massive delays in Normandy. Only the Canadians made their goals on D-Day, and that against a vicious SS army of late teens led by Russian Front vets.

So no, not a strawman. Defense in Depth is simply not what you were talking about.


Yeah, it was. I was VAGUE. You are developing everything off of your perception of what I "Band" and "eggshell" meant. If all I have to do is use one word and you go off that far, then I'm not taking any heat for this bruhaha.

So I'l reiterate. Compare the thickness of the DiD in Kursk to the entire size of the USSR. Which is thinner? The Soviet line relative to the USSR, or an eggshell relative to the egg?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby vintermann » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:06 am

oslecamo2_temp proved decisively that the concept of side encompasses both capital sides and barbarians (and probably natural allies as well). So it would be nice if people could stop disagreeing with that now. We have three categories:

Capital sides
* Must have have overlord/king/queen/regent, otherwise side ceases to exist (city units become neutral, field units disband).
* Have at least one capital site with a capital on it (if lost, remaining cities become neutral, field units not with leader disband, side becomes barbarian)
* Have persistent treasuries with (probably) no capacity limits, connected to the capital.
* Can hold cities, can pop units in these
* Units (except heirs and possibly "heir-class" units, former heirs) can be disbanded at will by the ruler.

Barbarians
* Must have chieftains, if they die side ceases to exist (all units disband)
* Have persistent treasury with capacity limit, connected to the chieftain.
* Can't hold cities, except if a capital site, then it becomes a capital side.
* Can't pop units at all.
* Units can be disbanded at will by the ruler (probably).

Natural allies
* Have no leaders that are crucial for the side/(group?)'s existence - make decisions collectively, no one can disband each other.
* Have nonpersistent treasuries - all must be spent before end of turn. Probably no capacity limit though.
* Can't hold cities, capital or not.
* Can pop units of same kind.

It could of course be that Parson was wrong when he wrote that Natural allies have treasuries, either deliberately or accidentally from the author's side. But deliberately makes little sense. Rob doesn't want to feed us with false information on basic mechanics like these, and logically what Parson writes in is klog is just what e.g Sizemore told him (and Sizemore as an Erfworld unit can't be wrong about these things).

My guess is either the "Natural allies have treasuries" line will be retconjured away (which seems a lot of work for Rob) or "treasuries" is defined/redefined as the abstract space where schmuckers reside, a banking account so to say. So that when it says Natural allies have treasuries, it merely means that their finances are separate from their allies, not that they have a special room they can store away schmuckers in. A barbarian leader's purse then becomes a limited, unit level-dependent treasury.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby mortissimus » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 am

Good list of what we know. But it would not be an erfworld forum discussion without objections.

vintermann wrote: Capital sides
* Have at least one capital site with a capital on it (if lost, remaining cities become neutral, field units not with leader disband, side becomes barbarian)

Barbarians
* Can't hold cities, except if a capital site, then it becomes a capital side.


These two, I think are unproven. We don't know what happens if a side holds cities but no capitol. Closest thing we get is the brief description of what happened when Saline IV died, and it is not stated there.

We might get something when Faq falls, because I think it was the capitol that was attacked first.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Whispri » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:41 am

I can't believe I only just noticed the 'from whence' tautology. I'm so ashamed. :(
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby gobe » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:07 pm

@oslecamo2_temp:

I still think your tone is somewhere between flaming and trolling. Why be so annoying and childish?

---

Moving on, well, I'm not convinced that Barbarian Heirs make a Side. A direct quote would be nice.

For now, I'll show you that I do read the comic... and that I'm 100% right that Jillian is NOT a queen, and thus that Wanda was NOT an overlord for more than a few seconds.

Summer Update 18 wrote:Vinny stood up straight and walked toward Jillian, holding out his palm. "Don King, may I present Princess Jillian Zamussels, formerly of the hidden Kingdom of Faq, now a barbarian."

Don King smiled at Jillian more warmly than he had to his warlords. He took a step toward her and bowed his head, very slightly. "I'm afraid I have not entertained any Royal barbarians, Princess. I am at a loss for protocol. You don't seem to have a ring to kiss."


So yeah.. she's a Barbarian Heir, being royal, the title for a heir becomes Princess. That's all this says. Also, she is FORMERLY of the Kingdom of Faq, now a barbarian. I.e. being a barbarian means that she is not part of a side. In my mind, this is what this says: barbarian means you don't have a side. And for sure it says that the side Faq does not exist anymore. As pointed out before, the new Faq is just a new side that chose the same name and ended up in the same capital site.
Last edited by gobe on Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Whispri » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:11 pm

vintermann wrote:Capital sides
* Have at least one capital site with a capital on it (if lost, remaining cities become neutral, field units not with leader disband, side becomes barbarian)

Barbarians
* Can't hold cities, except if a capital site, then it becomes a capital side.
* Can't pop units at all.

Natural allies
* Have no leaders that are crucial for the side/(group?)'s existence - make decisions collectively, no one can disband each other.
* Can't hold cities, capital or not.

Suppose for a moment, that Wanda had captured Coolminton after being named an heir but before Goodminton fell. What reason is there to think that she would not still own that City? Barbarians are described as Non-Capital Sides, not Cityless Sides.

I have no idea where the idea that Barbarians can't Pop Units comes from, but how could they possibly survive any length of time without that ability?

As far as the Natural Allies go, we know they have Chiefs and we know they can take and hold Cities, the whole thing with the death of Saline IV proves it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Swodaems » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:23 pm

vintermann wrote:Natural allies
* Have no leaders that are crucial for the side/(group?)'s existence - make decisions collectively, no one can disband each other.

Not quite accurate. While the leaders of natural allies don't cause mass dismandment when croaked, they still exist. One of the texts tells us that natural allies have a chief or a group of chiefs that reigns over them via natural thinkamancy. They are in charge of making major decisions such as the one to stick with a side or not. (Yes, this means that both the croaking of Saline IV via Hobgobwin betrayal and the turning of Jitterati's Western Giants to FAQ could have been accomplished by turning a single unit each time.)

Whispri wrote:
vintermann wrote:Barbarians
* Can't pop units at all.

I have no idea where the idea that Barbarians can't Pop Units comes from, but how could they possibly survive any length of time without that ability?

Also have no idea where the idea comes from, but one way survival in that situation could be possible would be to take advantage of the wildlife that pops randomly outside of cities and tame them. (Click to see vinny tame a feral bat.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Sharik » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:35 pm

Housellama wrote:Parson would absolutely love to go against an eggshell. Have one force penetrate fast and hard into the enemy territory, messing things up behind the lines. When the eggshell starts to turn itself inside out, slam it with another force from the outside. Either they turn and defend against the incoming force and let the elites wreck their supply lines, or they abandon their territory to the incoming army to go defend the insides. At that point, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

The point being that even in Erfworld, against a force with any kind of mobility at all, an eggshell is useless, and in fact worse than useless.


Is there any evidence whatsoever that armies in Erfworld (which, remember, is what we're talking about here) typically HAVE supply lines? I know a side can reduce upkeep by preparing food, hunting, farming, etc, but isn't the basic scenario "Your turn starts, you pay your upkeep, your rations pop"?

That being the case, unless the "elites" as you call them happen to be carrying some siege in their pockets, or happen to be on flying mounts with enough force to overcome the (relatively weak compared to the total force of the "shell", but presumably stronger than most) garrisons of your capitol and more critical cities (despite the efforts of your casters) then what would be the downside to letting them simply run around taking anti-air spells to the face and/or bashing themselves silly against city walls and/or capturing weak cities (the economic impact of the temporary loss of which will likely be offset by the reduced penalties for your size) while your main force crushes the second attack?

Less "shooting fish in a barrel" and more "attacker in serious danger of being defeated in detail."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:23 am

Sharik wrote:Is there any evidence whatsoever that armies in Erfworld (which, remember, is what we're talking about here) typically HAVE supply lines?


None whatsoever. Upkeep pops locally, and while there seems to be an ammo limit for archery, no one is described as needing supply to refresh, so that's probably a part of normal grooming upkeep.

I know a side can reduce upkeep by preparing food, hunting, farming, etc, but isn't the basic scenario "Your turn starts, you pay your upkeep, your rations pop"?


100% correct, sir.

Less "shooting fish in a barrel" and more "attacker in serious danger of being defeated in detail."


People shouldn't try to claim they can think like Parson. It's claiming to genius, and this little plan clearly is not. He overlooks the basic fundamental fact that he is grossly outnumbered. His "massive" invasion force is a paltry fraction of the forces available to the Side he's attacking. (At it's peak, GK had 14 cities. Jillian estimates Haffaton has 50.)

You know what would be funny? My attacking force arrives at GK, and I open with Olive flying into airspace singing her Peace tune. I can then reduce outer walls to rubble, and GK can't stop it, since Wanda demonstrated breaking objects isn't prevented by the tune. Walk right into the city with all the forces 50 cities can support (can't repair a city when enemy units are inside), fill every zone, and there's Wanda ready to Uncroak the entire city once the fighting starts next turn (Wanda's mine, currently). Since my Turn lasts as long as I want, all I need is one Siege unit and a day hundreds of hours long. I can do massive damage to Tower, so that it will fall with a scratch the next day, find and disarm traps in the tunnels... pretty much disarm the entire defense plan. Pile units into the Gate Room to prevent casters escaping.

In some instances, going on the offense when weak works, but when your attackers all disappear when the capital falls... not a plan that will last more time than it takes for the enemy to take your Capital.

And I'd really like to know how he's bypassing the defensive Band, too. He's just walking through, as if he can magically ignore the existing defenses, as if there was nothing on the border at all, when in fact, that's where I concentrated the defenses. I specifically mentioned good scouting in the band in my very first message on this topic, and we see that Jillian's tiny force got spotted fairly easily. Housellama is completely trivializing the existing defenses, as if all the defenses 50 cities can put on the border can't detect and stop an army capable of laying siege to a city. Fact is, like I said, I'll know about it, and I'll let it pass, for previously mentioned reasons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby mortissimus » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:28 am

Swodaems wrote:
Whispri wrote:
vintermann wrote:Barbarians
* Can't pop units at all.

I have no idea where the idea that Barbarians can't Pop Units comes from, but how could they possibly survive any length of time without that ability?

Also have no idea where the idea comes from, but one way survival in that situation could be possible would be to take advantage of the wildlife that pops randomly outside of cities and tame them. (Click to see vinny tame a feral bat.)


Popping takes cities, as far as I know. Taming wildlife is one (perhaps the only) way to get new troops. As barbarians sides pop randomly, I assume they have a stack when they pop that then is lost over time, but new barbarian sides pop to take the space. Short and brutal a barbarians life is.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:28 pm

Kreistor wrote:I specifically mentioned good scouting in the band in my very first message on this topic, and we see that Jillian's tiny force got spotted fairly easily.


Randomly, this time. They'd passed through many times before.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Balerion » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:28 pm

What I think you are forgetting Kreistor is that while you have the production capacity of Fifty cities, your income is closer to that of 1-2 most likely. Your ability to support that defensive band is something I would call into question, unless it is always on the offensive... which I think would lead to a coalition forming and destroying you.

The lone strike force probably can't do enough damage quickly enough (and I was assuming it was all flying mounts, or it would move too slowly to be called a strike force anyway),but several of them at once could prove problematic. Especially given you are upkeep strapped as it is, and would have trouble popping new units to deal with the problem (hard to support them)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:34 pm

drachefly wrote:Randomly, this time. They'd passed through many times before.


I'm going to need a quote on that. I just re-read 27 and 28, and i don't think Jillian has any idea how large Haffaton is. She describes them as ahving "oozed" around FAQ, so she needs to cross their territory to come home. She reiterates that in 27 and 28, with Transylvito mentioned as the only nearby side unconquered. Since Jillian seems to only know of the Croakamancy through rumour, she hasn't been spending her time fighting them aon the other side of Haffaton, so she was not coming to FAQ through the majority of Haffaton's territory.

Wow, I really needed to re-read 28, I found some major oversights. I'll have to go back and re-read the previous arguments. I completely overlooked this:

28 wrote:If they did have so many cities, then each one must only contribute the barest few Shmuckers to their treasury. After a certain number of city levels per side, the Shmuckers each city produced would begin to decline. Very large sides were hard to maintain, and had a habit of splitting off into new sides for the efficiency of it.


Others may have been talking as thought I saw this, but guys, I didn't. Missed the entire paragraph.

Balerion wrote:What I think you are forgetting Kreistor is that while you have the production capacity of Fifty cities, your income is closer to that of 1-2 most likely.


No, more like 14. GK and Jetstone both quoted larger city figures, and Jetstone claimed a L4 and 5. The function isn't based on number of cities, but on the number of city levels. And, consider that it says income reduces, but Jillian does not state that new city levels start costing you income. They may reduce to near 0, but that only means you can lose some and not take a hit on your revenue stream. You'd have to take 35 cities from Haffaton to cause it's revenue to slightly decrease.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Balerion » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:45 pm

I guess I read the line about schmucker reduction by each city differently; I saw it that once you crossed a threshold number of levels, all cities would start to have contributions suffer, not just the new ones, so each city might contribute 2% at this point in. If you are right in your reading (which I might agree with on the second read through), then you certainly afford a larger army... though I still question weather 14 cities worth of production can support that band around 50 cities of territory, especially given the scouting demands you have identified as being crucial
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Whispri » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:08 pm

Swodaems wrote:
Whispri wrote:
vintermann wrote:Barbarians
* Can't pop units at all.

I have no idea where the idea that Barbarians can't Pop Units comes from, but how could they possibly survive any length of time without that ability?

Also have no idea where the idea comes from, but one way survival in that situation could be possible would be to take advantage of the wildlife that pops randomly outside of cities and tame them. (Click to see vinny tame a feral bat.)

That is true, there is that method of raising forces. But Jillian maintaining a strong force of Gwiffons for the hundreds of turns twixt the fall of Faq and the TBfGK without the ability to Pop more? Hard to see it happening.

mortissimus wrote:Popping takes cities, as far as I know. Taming wildlife is one (perhaps the only) way to get new troops. As barbarians sides pop randomly, I assume they have a stack when they pop that then is lost over time, but new barbarian sides pop to take the space. Short and brutal a barbarians life is.

Natural Allies can turn money directly into Units. And, well, Barbarians have to able to Pop fresh Units somehow or other.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:52 pm

Balerion wrote:I guess I read the line about schmucker reduction by each city differently; I saw it that once you crossed a threshold number of levels, all cities would start to have contributions suffer, not just the new ones, so each city might contribute 2% at this point in. If you are right in your reading (which I might agree with on the second read through), then you certainly afford a larger army... though I still question weather 14 cities worth of production can support that band around 50 cities of territory, especially given the scouting demands you have identified as being crucial


You are going to hit a point where the increase is minimal. So, when you expand beyond the limit, and convert to the band defense, you have got to keep the actual length of the border constant. The key becomes carefully choosing which cities you can expand to. This may involve attacking in strange and unorthodox manners.

Capitals can be key to this. Taking out one Capital and Ruler will Neutralize all of its Cities. Neutral territory is not dangerous, so you can take one key city that butts up against a border feature, and you gobble up the territory between the old border and it. You can then take the other cities backwards towards your territory. It all depends on the shape of the terrain. Since you aren't getting more troops, you simply have to make sure you're defending the same length border. This would explain Haffaton's patience. They expand, and then need to wait until the politics in the region are such that they can expand without increasing their vulnerability.

But ultimately, this leads to a problem with Barbarians. Barbarians popping in the rear are going to be facing increasingly defenseless cities. Solution?

Raze your Level 1's, then 2's, then 3's, and keep only 4's and 5's. Your income is per level, so cities with more levels provide more income per city. By not trying to defend cities that are restricted to lower level, you give up a a tiny fraction of your income, but become far more defensible. If city level max is equally distributed, of the 50 cities, 10 will be 5's and 10 4's, meaning they're defending cities of average 4.5, with 90 city levels, instead of 50 with average level 2.5 and 125 levels total. If distribution isn't that even, you'll add some 3's to a point of diminishing returns. 90 is still a lot of levels, so we may need to raze some 4's.

To increase difficulty, raze cities just inside the border, and retain them deep in the core. Only 4's and 5's stand between the outer band and the core, so it's harder to assault. As an invader assaults the big cities, you should lose more in defender upkeep costs than the lost revenue, so you should be able to start production of replacements as soon as the first falls. Keeping the 3's deeper near the core will make any invader's task more difficult, and provide for closer mutual defense.

But it does explain Haffaton's peaceful methods. By favouring scouts for the border, they need to diminish combat effectiveness. More scouts, fewer troops, so alternate methods become mandatory.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Kreistor wrote:
drachefly wrote:Randomly, this time. They'd passed through many times before.


I'm going to need a quote on that. I just re-read 27 and 28, and i don't think Jillian has any idea how large Haffaton is.


Okay. Whether or not this is a recent development, she's usually made it home safely regardless of who was surrounding them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby MOD » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:38 pm

This man was a Level 4, and she was scared to dust of him.
I think the word dust in this sentence is premature for the narrative. Dusting as I recall referred only to Decrypted troops and as we are in a prequel it is used to early.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 028

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:38 pm

MOD wrote:I think the word dust in this sentence is premature for the narrative. Dusting as I recall referred only to Decrypted troops and as we are in a prequel it is used to early.


Uncroaked that died in Book 1 were "dusted", too.
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