Wanda's Curse

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Wanda's Curse

Postby imany » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:40 pm

He turned his head and looked at her, the firelight glinting in his eyes. "You are my daughter. While I live, avenge Tommy. Should I fall, avenge me. Avenge Goodminton. I want you to make them pay. If they swallow you, be a poison pill. Let that be my legacy. It is terribly important, I feel."

[snip]

Father pulled back from her and frowned. "Please don't be seduced by the idea, Wanda. Haffaton is—"

"No! I mean, if that is so, then taking their offer would have doomed Goodminton as well, would it not? I mean, eventually. We didn't make such a terrible mistake, did we?" said Wanda, with a gleeful warmth rising within her. "Fighting the future conqueror of Erfworld is everyone's business."


All the sides Wanda has been a part of have been destroyed because of her. (Well, I am guessing with Goodminton, but probably.)

1) Wanda's Father said 'be a poison pill'
2) Wanda thinks fighting Goodminton is important because it's the future conqueror of Erfworld.
3) Wanda acquires a Win button.
4) Gobwin Knob is the future conqueror of Erfworld.
5) ???
6) Rocks fall, everyone dies?

Is Wanda a destined to be a poison pill forever?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:09 pm

Wanda's only going to take action to poison a Side if she holds them responsible for killing her Father and destroying her Side. She may find other reasons, such as her loyalty to Fate, to lay waste to a Side. But as far as her oath is concerned, if she ended up working for the Side of Utterly Blameless under a Ruler named 'Innocent', she'd have no cause to smite them for Goodminton's sake.

There's another issue though. At the start of Book Zero, it was established that Wanda was worth far more than Goodminton payed to Pop her and that someone would have to pay the price for her existence. All those fallen Sides? They could be the price. Or Goodminton could be the motivation, Haffaton the price, Faq the vengeance and Gobwin Knob... well was she even tangentially involved in Saline IV's fall?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:38 pm

Jillian notes, "Of course, the other thing she knew about Haffaton was that they had a very powerful Croakamancer who stayed in the field."

One could say that the massive numbers of forces she kills are the negatives to balance her huge positive. By making other numbers reduce to zero, she diminishes the effect of her own massive positive. And you could even say that the uncroaked themselves are a negative number, a non-living number, that directly balances her. The Decrypted are a different story entirely.

There are a lot of ways to look at that Numbers discussion.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Kreistor wrote:Jillian notes, "Of course, the other thing she knew about Haffaton was that they had a very powerful Croakamancer who stayed in the field."

One could say that the massive numbers of forces she kills are the negatives to balance her huge positive. By making other numbers reduce to zero, she diminishes the effect of her own massive positive. And you could even say that the uncroaked themselves are a negative number, a non-living number, that directly balances her. The Decrypted are a different story entirely.

There are a lot of ways to look at that Numbers discussion.

By that line of reasoning, spending money you've borrowed would magically pay off your debts.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:04 pm

Whispri wrote:By that line of reasoning, spending money you've borrowed would magically pay off your debts.


No, by my logic taking the money off the bodies of the corpses lying in your wake would pay off your debts.

Hmmm...
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:16 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Whispri wrote:By that line of reasoning, spending money you've borrowed would magically pay off your debts.

No, by my logic taking the money off the bodies of the corpses lying in your wake would pay off your debts.

Hmmm...

Your logic requires that the Lady Wanda Firebaugh's ability to be nifty in your name pays for the debt attached to her spiffingness. To pay off her debt you must sacrifice something. And destroying your enemies? You are, in short, asking to pop the Chosen One for free. Now if you had Wanda attack and destroy your heart's desire on the other hand...
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:10 pm

Whispri wrote:Your logic requires that the Lady Wanda Firebaugh's ability to be nifty in your name pays for the debt attached to her spiffingness. To pay off her debt you must sacrifice something. And destroying your enemies? You are, in short, asking to pop the Chosen One for free. Now if you had Wanda attack and destroy your heart's desire on the other hand...


"That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.

Zero always called, and someone would have to pay."

That's completely vague about who "someone" is, or how it is to be paid. And it says nothing about Wanda having to sacrifice. All of that is your interpretation. And I don't think it flows with Delphie's claims that Goodminton's destruction was not inevitable. Payment, if predetermined to be Wanda's personal loss, would have been inevitable, and Delphie would have known her efforts would be useless.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Whispri wrote:Your logic requires that the Lady Wanda Firebaugh's ability to be nifty in your name pays for the debt attached to her spiffingness. To pay off her debt you must sacrifice something. And destroying your enemies? You are, in short, asking to pop the Chosen One for free. Now if you had Wanda attack and destroy your heart's desire on the other hand...

"That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.

Zero always called, and someone would have to pay."

That's completely vague about who "someone" is, or how it is to be paid. And it says nothing about Wanda having to sacrifice. All of that is your interpretation. And I don't think it flows with Delphie's claims that Goodminton's destruction was not inevitable. Payment, if predetermined to be Wanda's personal loss, would have been inevitable, and Delphie would have known her efforts would be useless.

I didn't say Wanda would have to make sacrifices for the sake of her pop debt (although she might), I said you would. You, in this scenario, are playing the role of whatever Side she happens to be working with at any given moment in time. Goodminton, Haffaton, Old Faq, Old Gobwin Knob, they all suffered terrible disasters while employing Lady Wanda 'The Chosen One' Firebaugh. She's the only known link between them.

As for Delphie, all along she was saying Goodminton would fall if they kept Wanda on board. And, well, wasn't she right? The backlash for owning Wanda wouldn't have any reason to strike at them if she'd left, now would it?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:30 pm

Whispri wrote:As for Delphie, all along she was saying Goodminton would fall if they kept Wanda on board. And, well, wasn't she right? The backlash for owning Wanda wouldn't have any reason to strike at them if she'd left, now would it?


So? Proves nothing. Rob was incredibly vague about who "someone" is and how that someone would "pay". All I'm saying is that there are many interpretations for that statement, not limited to the following:

1) The vast corpses she leaves in her wake
2) Her personal pricetag (Death in the Family, the Peaceful Side of FAQ, enslavement to Haffaton)
3) The price people pay to be close to her (torture, immorality wrt to the dead, immoral warfare)
4) Her enslavement to Fate and the pain of the path to get there
5) And your own, the price paid by her Side

I'm not denying that you could be right. I'm just saying that there are many possibilities.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:15 am

Kreistor wrote:
Whispri wrote:As for Delphie, all along she was saying Goodminton would fall if they kept Wanda on board. And, well, wasn't she right? The backlash for owning Wanda wouldn't have any reason to strike at them if she'd left, now would it?


So? Proves nothing. Rob was incredibly vague about who "someone" is and how that someone would "pay". All I'm saying is that there are many interpretations for that statement, not limited to the following:

1) The vast corpses she leaves in her wake
2) Her personal pricetag (Death in the Family, the Peaceful Side of FAQ, enslavement to Haffaton)
3) The price people pay to be close to her (torture, immorality wrt to the dead, immoral warfare)
4) Her enslavement to Fate and the pain of the path to get there
5) And your own, the price paid by her Side

I'm not denying that you could be right. I'm just saying that there are many possibilities.

By your reasoning the debt incured by the casting of a Luckmancy Boost would be payed off by the casting of said Boost. Wanda's ability to slaughter your enemies is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her ability to use magic is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her Fate Boost is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her Destiny is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. The chance to hang around with her is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. You can't pay off Wanda's pop debt with Wanda.

Wanda may have to pay for her own popping at least in part (she's a Barbarian Chieftain now after all). However, her family may well have survived her if she'd chosen to unlock the H-Scene with Olive. They'd still have had too many enemies in the Battlespace than they could have realistically hoped to deal with, but from her curse, they would have been safe. And she'd likely have had the Flowergirl for a lover instead of a target of vengeance.

I'm not really sure why you expect her to mourn the fall of the warmongering (they sell war as a fishmonger sells fish before you quibble) Side of Faq BTW. Even if they weren't responsible for Goodminton's destruction, is there anything she liked about the place aside from the pretty blonde Princess?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:18 am

Whispri wrote:By your reasoning the debt incured by the casting of a Luckmancy Boost would be payed off by the casting of said Boost.


Luckamancy is on the Erf, not Numbers, axis. You can't apply a Numbers philosophy to an Erf Magic. You need to find the Erf philosophy to understand Luckamancy.

Wanda's ability to slaughter your enemies is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her ability to use magic is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her Fate Boost is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. Her Destiny is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. The chance to hang around with her is something that's been payed for with borrowed money. You can't pay off Wanda's pop debt with Wanda.


Fundamentally wrong. "borrowed" means it was requested. Wanda was made, and given the debt: she didn't willingly borrow it. To borrow it, she had to ask for it, and that didn't happen.

But you are also wrong in that vast list of what she got. We don't know what her Numbers mean, but they certainly do NOT include Fate. Fate is a completely different axis, as is Erf, and will have no debt to Numbers, the third axis. Fate is fickle, and can be totally unfair. Numbers have to balance, but Fate is not a Number.

I'm not really sure why you expect her to mourn the fall of the warmongering (they sell war as a fishmonger sells fish before you quibble) Side of Faq BTW.


war·mon·ger: a person who advocates, endorses, or tries to precipitate war.

No, mercenaries are not warmongers. They are hired by warmongers, but they are not advocates seling war, only thier services in war. The war will happen without the mercenary. The mercenary doesnt precipitate (start) a war: the person that hires them does that. No, FAQ are not by definition warmongers.

Even if they weren't responsible for Goodminton's destruction, is there anything she liked about the place aside from the pretty blonde Princess?


Besides the fact that for once in her life, she wasn't in the field massacring people, but staying in a cozy city? Nah, nothing attractive about that for someone that has spent her entire existence on the front line.

Yeah, moreevidence against the Warmonger accusation. Warmongers would have offered up Wanda's services, too. Or expanded beyond FAQ's bubble kingdom border.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Swodaems » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:42 am

Kreistor wrote:
Whispri wrote:By your reasoning the debt incured by the casting of a Luckmancy Boost would be payed off by the casting of said Boost.

Luckamancy is on the Erf, not Numbers, axis. You can't apply a Numbers philosophy to an Erf Magic. You need to find the Erf philosophy to understand Luckamancy.

I'd like an Erfly explanation to Luckamancy as well. Sadly, the only in-comic discussion seen on it so far is a bit heavy on the Numbers talk.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:24 pm

But notice the difference in where the balance point occurs with Luckamancy. Someone that benefits is not the person that pays. Anyone at random nearby can suffer the backlash. So while there is a balance on the meta scale, the Erf scale if you will, there is no balance at the individual scale, and the payment comes from anyone. There is no concept of debt or balance due, though there is a concept of balance
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby drachefly » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:29 pm

Kreistor wrote:No, mercenaries are not warmongers. They are hired by warmongers, but they are not advocates seling war, only thier services in war. The war will happen without the mercenary. The mercenary doesnt precipitate (start) a war: the person that hires them does that.


It's called marketing. What did Charlie say about peoples' problems?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Whispri » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:22 pm

Kreistor wrote:Luckamancy is on the Erf, not Numbers, axis. You can't apply a Numbers philosophy to an Erf Magic. You need to find the Erf philosophy to understand Luckamancy.

Fundamentally wrong. "borrowed" means it was requested. Wanda was made, and given the debt: she didn't willingly borrow it. To borrow it, she had to ask for it, and that didn't happen.

But you are also wrong in that vast list of what she got. We don't know what her Numbers mean, but they certainly do NOT include Fate. Fate is a completely different axis, as is Erf, and will have no debt to Numbers, the third axis. Fate is fickle, and can be totally unfair. Numbers have to balance, but Fate is not a Number.

war·mon·ger: a person who advocates, endorses, or tries to precipitate war.

No, mercenaries are not warmongers. They are hired by warmongers, but they are not advocates seling war, only thier services in war. The war will happen without the mercenary. The mercenary doesnt precipitate (start) a war: the person that hires them does that. No, FAQ are not by definition warmongers.

Besides the fact that for once in her life, she wasn't in the field massacring people, but staying in a cozy city? Nah, nothing attractive about that for someone that has spent her entire existence on the front line.

Yeah, moreevidence against the Warmonger accusation. Warmongers would have offered up Wanda's services, too. Or expanded beyond FAQ's bubble kingdom border.

Luckmancy is all about Numbers. It's also a fine example of what it means to be in debt to Numbers. The Side that benefits is the Side that pays. Goodminton's troops faired poorly without their Boosted leaders around for that reason.

Wanda didn't order her own creation. Overlord Firebaugh did. Not that it matters, as we know there is a debt attached to her.

Yeah, see Luckmancy and the reason Clay never needed to Boost her. Even in the unlikely event that Wanda's Fate is in no way related to her vast Pop debt, the debt in question is still as real as reality itself.

Yes, that is why I took care to explain my meaning. Faq is selling war. They are mongering it. They are warmongers.

On the contrary, war is their primary export. They skulk behind veils to avoid their victims attention.

So you think Wanda would enjoy being unable to use her beloved Croakamancy for Turns beyond count? Seriously? Regardless, we know from her conversations with a certain Foolamancer in Book II that there is little of life at Faq that she will miss.

Expanding their borders would have meant either fighting wars with their more powerful neighbours or establishing enclaves far from home without Caster support. What money is there in either of those options? As for Wanda, well who says they didn't flog her from time to time? Either way, their M.O. seems to revolve around smuggling their army deep into the field and then looking for work, hardly the most effective way of finding work for a Caster.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Kreistor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:49 pm

Whispri wrote:Yes, that is why I took care to explain my meaning. Faq is selling war. They are mongering it. They are warmongers.


No, they sell services to people already at war, or who intend to go to war. Further, Jillian mentions that she prefers to hire on wiht the underdog... and the underdog is usually the Side being attacked, not instigating.

On the contrary, war is their primary export. They skulk behind veils to avoid their victims attention.


That is not part of the definition of Warmonger. It is the Black Knight concept... the warrior that jousts because someone has called a tourney, but doesn't want anyone to know who won. He didn't call the tourney. He only profits off someone choosing to run a joust.

And skulking? Not part of warmongering in any way. You might find some other descriptive term, though. But it would be spin. That was a necessary choice because of the vulnerability of their Kingdom. And it's not like Sides on the other side of Erf would be capable of reaching them, anyway.

So you think Wanda would enjoy being unable to use her beloved Croakamancy for Turns beyond count? Seriously? Regardless, we know from her conversations with a certain Foolamancer in Book II that there is little of life at Faq that she will miss.


Everyone enjoys a vacation from constant stress.

Expanding their borders would have meant either fighting wars with their more powerful neighbours or establishing enclaves far from home without Caster support.


Prove it. Who were the Sides around FAQ before Haffaton took all the surrounding lands. Does Jetstone exist? Transylvito does, but they are heavy on air, so not a profitable target. So who held GK? Is Unaroyal close? Does it exist? We nothing about that region pre-Haffaton.

What money is there in either of those options? As for Wanda, well who says they didn't flog her from time to time? Either way, their M.O. seems to revolve around smuggling their army deep into the field and then looking for work, hardly the most effective way of finding work for a Caster.


"We'd do mercenary work with griffin squads when there was no other way to boost the treasury."

The mercenary work was not constant, and only when needed for subsistence. that is not even close to warmongering. When it's merc work vs. disbanding friends? It's certainly not mercenary.
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby SteveMB » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:01 pm

Whispri wrote:There's another issue though. At the start of Book Zero, it was established that Wanda was worth far more than Goodminton payed to Pop her and that someone would have to pay the price for her existence. All those fallen Sides? They could be the price. Or Goodminton could be the motivation, Haffaton the price, Faq the vengeance and Gobwin Knob... well was she even tangentially involved in Saline IV's fall?

My recollection is that casters occasionally pop instead of warlords. New casters are, I would think, much more valuable than new warlords. Ergo, any caster (popped by a side that had paid for a warlord) generally might carry such a debt to be paid....
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Wanda's Curse

Postby Mrtyuh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:16 am

Whispri wrote:I didn't say Wanda would have to make sacrifices for the sake of her pop debt (although she might), I said you would. You, in this scenario, are playing the role of whatever Side she happens to be working with at any given moment in time. Goodminton, Haffaton, Old Faq, Old Gobwin Knob, they all suffered terrible disasters while employing Lady Wanda 'The Chosen One' Firebaugh. She's the only known link between them.

That's a bit specious. While I'm not saying Wanda's debt didn't contribute to the fall of those sides, it seems that bad things happen to most, if not all, sides eventually. Another interpretation is that the sides would have fallen eventually anyway and she only survived due to her Fate.

Kreistor wrote:So? Proves nothing. Rob was incredibly vague about who "someone" is and how that someone would "pay". All I'm saying is that there are many interpretations for that statement, not limited to the following:

1) The vast corpses she leaves in her wake
2) Her personal pricetag (Death in the Family, the Peaceful Side of FAQ, enslavement to Haffaton)
3) The price people pay to be close to her (torture, immorality wrt to the dead, immoral warfare)
4) Her enslavement to Fate and the pain of the path to get there
5) And your own, the price paid by her Side

I'm not denying that you could be right. I'm just saying that there are many possibilities.

I have to agree with Kreistor on this one. While I'm not convinced that is what the numbers actually mean, I do think it is one of the possible interpretations of what they mean.

Kreistor wrote:war·mon·ger: a person who advocates, endorses, or tries to precipitate war.

No, mercenaries are not warmongers. They are hired by warmongers, but they are not advocates seling war, only thier services in war. The war will happen without the mercenary. The mercenary doesnt precipitate (start) a war: the person that hires them does that. No, FAQ are not by definition warmongers.

I have to disagree with this one. There are copious instances of mercenaries starting, encouraging and prolonging warfare in history. War is their business, and they want to get paid. Even in Erfworld, we've seen this. Just look at Charlie's Rule #3:

We are in the business of solving problems for our clients. Corollary: Creating problems for our clients creates business.

Kreistor wrote:Besides the fact that for once in her life, she wasn't in the field massacring people, but staying in a cozy city? Nah, nothing attractive about that for someone that has spent her entire existence on the front line.

Yeah, moreevidence against the Warmonger accusation. Warmongers would have offered up Wanda's services, too. Or expanded beyond FAQ's bubble kingdom border.

I once again disagree. First, we do not know how much time Wanda spent at Faq. While we know that Marie and Jack were too necessary for Faq's survival to be sent into the field with Jillian and Wanda awaited Jillian's return at least once, it is entirely possible that Wanda may have accompanied Jillian on a majority of her expeditions.

Also, when Jack asked Wanda about missing Old Faq, Wanda responded, "There are few things I miss about that time." We know the biggest thing she misses is Jillian. I certainly may be wrong, but I've always felt that Wanda was not particularly happy at Faq. While she may not have intended to bring about her side's destruction, it never seemed to me that she felt any particular regret or loss over what she wrought there.

Swodaems wrote:I'd like an Erfly explanation to Luckamancy as well. Sadly, the only in-comic discussion seen on it so far is a bit heavy on the Numbers talk.

I would as well.

Whispri wrote:Luckmancy is all about Numbers. It's also a fine example of what it means to be in debt to Numbers. The Side that benefits is the Side that pays. Goodminton's troops faired poorly without their Boosted leaders around for that reason.

Not necessarily. Clay was most likely a Novice-class, Level 3 Luckamancer. His understanding and mastery of his own discipline was very limited. I find it an entirely plausible that Master-class, Level 8 Luckamancers would be able to steal their enemies "rolls." Clay simply wasn't there yet. I will posit an Erf-axis view, since we have some idea of the way Numbers and Fate view things. Life isn't fair. It is the survival of the fittest. The strong survive, while the weak perish. We must raze enemy cities to boost our treasury. We must kill units for provisions. For one to prosper and survive, another must suffer and die. If that is how the Erf-axis works, it still explains Luckamancy, however, it does not require the numbers to balance. While Erfworld may be lazy and not go any farther than necessary to "steal rolls," a powerful Luckamancer may be able to force Erfworld to get off its lazy butt and go farther than it would like. Of course, this is just speculation.

Kreistor wrote:No, they sell services to people already at war, or who intend to go to war. Further, Jillian mentions that she prefers to hire on wiht the underdog... and the underdog is usually the Side being attacked, not instigating.

The underdog could be the side that started the war, however, had the war go poorly for them. They may have been a powerful side that has fallen due to their own actions, such as Gobwin Knob at the beginning of Book 1. They may be a smaller side that hoped to take advantage of a situation, such as Japan attacking European colonies while they were busy fighting Germany. Being the underdog, at least at the time Jillian arrives on the scene, does not mean they were not the aggressor.

Kreistor wrote:"We'd do mercenary work with griffin squads when there was no other way to boost the treasury."

The mercenary work was not constant, and only when needed for subsistence. that is not even close to warmongering. When it's merc work vs. disbanding friends? It's certainly not mercenary.

I actually agree concerning Faq, specifically. From everything we've seen, it was a philosophical, pacifist side, or at least as pacifist as Erfworld allowed them to be. It has been noted before that the rules of Erfworld basically force sides to engage in constant warfare in order to simply sustain themselves. Faq seemed to do that as little as possible, so I would not classify them as warmongers. I was more nitpicking that mercenaries in general are merely service providers that never contribute to warmongering.
मृत्युः सर्वहरश्चाहमुद्भवश्च भविष्यताम् ।
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