Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game *testing on hold*

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Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game *testing on hold*

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:58 pm

Unit Statistics:
Spoiler: show
Units have the following statistics:

Hits: Phyiscal toughness. Number of hits a unit can take before dying. Base hits determine size. Under 5 hits is a small unit, under 10 but over 5 is a medium unit, under 25 but over 10 is a large unit, and anything over 26 is a huge unit. Large units cannot enter tunnels (unless they are tunnelers), and huge units cannot be flyers. These are base values, unmodified by traits or leveling.

Attack: Attack determines a unit’s hitting power. This is compared against an enemy’s modified defense to determine how many hits are scored.

Defense: Toughness of a unit, and its ability to resist damage. Base defense cannot exceed 4 for infantry and flyers, or 6 for cavalry. Large units are limited to 8 for infantry or flyers, and 12 for cavalry. Huge units are limited to 20. This does not cap increases from traits.

Movement: Number of hexes a unit can move. Base movement (unmodified by traits) is capped at 2 (siege) 3 (infantry) 4 (cavalry) or 5 (flyers).

Movement Type: Determines how a unit moves over the terrain.

Flyers: Treats all terrain as if it cost 1 movement point. Can cross water hexes. Can enter mountain terrain, but it costs 2 movement. Gains no bonuses due to terrain.

Cavalry: Treats open terrain (plains, roads, light forest) as if it cost ½ the normal movement. All other terrain types cause a -50% combat effectiveness penalties. Cannot enter mountains or water hexes.

Infantry: Suffers movement costs and gains defensive bonuses normally.

Siege: Can only move on open terrain. Cannot move and attack in the same turn. Siege units deal twice damage against cities and walls (and units behind walls) but only half
damage against regular units.

Statistics and Levelling: When a unit levels they gain one bonus attribute to assign to hits, attack or defense. Every third level they can assign it instead to movement, allowing them to exceed the normal base movement rates. All production and upkeep costs are calculated on lvl 1 creatures, except for knights, which are calculated at lvl 5 (because thats when they are popped)


Math:
Spoiler: show
Basic math goes like this:

Attacks: attacking unit rolls a dice (d4 for small, d6 for medium, d8 for large, and d10 for huge) and adds its modified attack. This is compared against the enemy unit's modified defense stat plus another die roll (d4 for small, d6 for medium, d8 for large, and d10 for huge). the attack roll minus the defense roll equals damage to the defending unit's stats.

Hiding/Foolamancy: Units have a natural stealth stat, modified by terrain (thick terrains like forests make units harder to spot). The larger the unit the easier it is to spot. Every leadership unit (commanders and casters) have a chance to pierce a veil/spot a hidden unit. This is a roll, modified by the unit's level and any scouting bonuses, versus the units stealth/veil. In the case of using magic against foolamancy, there is a penalty to the roll if the caster uses less juice than the foolamancer did as if he did so at the same efficiency (a master-class foolamancer veiling a 10 hit unit only used 5 juice, but a novice-class lookamancer would have to use 10 juice to avoid a penalty, and 20 juice to get the best bonus to find the veiled units).


Unit Creation:
Spoiler: show
Units are made by spending Pop Points, which are generated every turn by cities. Units also cost Shmukers, which are also generated by cities but can be earned in other ways, and, unlike Pop Points, can be stored. If a unit exceeds a city’s Pop Points, it takes multiple turns to create (until the total is paid off). Units that do not exceed a city’s Pop Points are created immediately, as are units that are paid off. In either case, the shmuker cost is paid when the unit is ordered. Cancelling a unit in progress recovers the entire cost of the popping, but does not restore any Pop Points.

Units pop at lvl 1. Knights are elite versions of normal units, and pop at lvl 5. You can only have one kind of knight per city, and they can only be popped in that city (this requires 2 slots: 1 for the base creature, and 1 for the knight version). Knight class units gain 5 extra attribute points that are not calculated in their cost.

Pop Point Cost: = Hits*Hits*(Move + Defense + Attack)) + Natural Trait Cost (Trait Rank*50)
Shmuker’s Cost: = 4*Pop Point Cost + 4*Natural Trait Cost(Trait Rank *50)[yes you pay double for these abilities as they are powerful]
Upkeep: = 10% * Shmuker cost



Traits:
Spoiler: show
Traits are gained as units, warlords, and casters level. These traits can be improved over time, and combinations of traits can provide bonuses, and even alter the class of the unit/warlord/caster.

Units gain 1 trait per level, and have an extremely limited selection. Units that have "natural" traits can improve these traits as if they had access to them (so a natural thinkamancer like an archon can improve their thinkamancy trait).
Warlords and Casters gain 2 traits per level. Warlords typically cannot gain caster traits, and casters typically cannot gain leadership-related traits.
Heirs and Faction Leaders gain 3 traits per level (not retroactively, only when leveling while heir/leader). Typically they have access to warlord traits (though caster leaders/heirs are not unheard of). They can gain the Rulership and related trait.

NOTE: games utilizing these rules should not include level as a calculation for combat. Traits should give bonuses naturally to higher level units.

NOTE2: Units of the same type will level up the same way, and gain the same traits. So a lvl 2 Piker will have one set of traits, and a lvl 3 piker will have the same traits plus one more, a lvl 4 will have the same as a lvl 3 with one additional trait. All lvl 4 Pikers will have the same traits.

Each skill tree has one Primary and three Secondary skills. Secondary skills cannot be levelled past the level of their primary skill.

Skills have four levels: Basic, Advanced, Expert, and Master.

Skill Trees:

General (available to everyone):

Hardiness (Primary): Increases Hits of a unit (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Melee Attack (Secondary): Increases Melee Attack of a unit (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Defense (Secondary): Increases Defense of a unit (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Ranged Attack (Secondary): Increases Ranged Attack of a unit (10%/20%/30%/40%)

Scouting (Primary): Increases sight range of a unit (1 hex/2 hexes/3 hexes/ 4 hexes)
*Pathfinding (secondary): Decreases movement penalty of difficult terrain (0.25 point reduction/0.5 reduction/0.75 reduction/1 reduction)
*Stealth (secondary): Increases chance of remaining hidden from enemy scouts (invisible to units with scouting lower than your stealth)
*Maneuver (secondary): Increases Movement of a unit (0.5/1/1.5/2)

Warlord (available to warlords and leaders/heirs):

Leadership (Primary): Grants bonuses to hits of all units in a stack (+20%/+40%/+60%/+80%)
*Offensive Tactics (secondary): Grants bonus to attack of a stack (+10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Defensive Tactics (secondary): Grants bonus to defense of a stack (+10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Mobility (secondary): Increases movement of a stack (+25%/50%/75%/100%)

Rulership (Available to leaders/heirs):

Rulership (Primary): Increases Schmukers per turn (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Estates (secondary): Reduces upkeep costs of all units (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Contracting (secondary): Reduces costs of hiring mercenaries/casters. Also reduces interest penalty of loans (10%/20%/30%/40%)
*Diplomacy (secondary): Increases recruitment rate of natural allies (10%/20%/30%/40%)

Magic (Available to Casters):
NOTES: All magic traits have a primary trait (the class of magic) that increases a caster's juice and potency of spells of that class. They then also have 3 secondary traits that have specific effects, as well as improving magic of that type.

Primary Magic Traits of every level provide 10 additional points of juice.

Magic traits are for general use, if you have a specific use you’d like to do, ask and I will provide a cost.

Any magic that allows you to create a unit also provides a leadership bonus when stacked with those unit types (even those you haven’t created) as if you had the Leadership primary (20%/40%/60%/80%)

Hocus Pocus (Primary)
*Findamancy (secondary) Can scout 1 hex per 1 points of juice (1/0.75/0.5/0.25), but can only search for one thing at a time (keywords like siege, scouts, casters, etc). This provides little information, but is cheaper than other methods of scouting, and can help guide areas to scout. Can penetrate foolamancy by spending more juice than the foolamancer did to make the veil.
*Predictamancy (secondary) Can reroll attack rolls at 5 juice per dice. Can also make enemies reroll defense rolls at double the cost (5/4/3/2). The rerolls may be rerolled at double the cost of juice (fate can only be manipulated so much).
*Mathamancy (secondary) Calculating matchups provides a +1 bonus to a units attack or defense roll per 5 points spent (max of trait level per attribute, so master-level can only provide a +4 bonus at a cost of 8 juice) (5/4/3/2).

Spookism (Primary)
*Turnamancy (secondary) Can try to dominate enemy units at a cost of 5 points per hit (5/4/3/2). Produces bonus pop points per juice spent (1/1.3/1.6/2)
*Dollomancy (secondary) can create cloth golems at a cost of 1 juice per hit. Increases effectiveness of dollomancy spells (1 hit/1.3/1.6/2| 20%/40%/60%/80%). Can create accessories.
*Weirdomancy (secondary) Able to increase a units movement at a cost of 10/9/7/5 juice per point increased. Able to allow one unit to ignore the wall bonus of a city at the same cost. Able to remove a special, or add one (such as flying) for a turn at a cost of 20/17/13/10. Able to create a portal. Portals are two way and each portal can only link to one other portal. Each portal must be made individually, and the caster must be present to create each portal. Each portal costs 200 juice, which may be spent over multiple turns.

Stuffamancy (Primary)
*Dirtamancy (secondary)Able to reduce the cost of upgrading or building a city or city improvements by 1/1.3/1.6/2% per juice spent (maximum 50% reduction). May create and heal crap/mud/dirt/rock golems as per a dollomancer. May create up to 20/40/70/100 juice worth of traps in a hex which deal 1/1.3/1.6/2 hit per juice to any enemy stack entering the hex. Dirtamancer may activate/deactivate the traps at will as long as they are within the hex. Active traps always spring on the first stack from another side that enters them.
*Changemancy (secondary) Can turn a unit into another unit. Costs 1 juice per 1/1.3/1.6/2 pop points difference between the two units.
*Dittomancy (secondary) doubles the attack of ranged units (cost 2 per attack point/1.6/1.3/1). Can dupe units (creates an exact copy that lasts until end of next turn; costs 5 juice per hit/4/3/2). Can replicate units popped in the city they are in (costs 4 juice per hit/3/2/1). These units are permanent.

Eyemancy (Primary)
*Lookamancy (secondary) Can scout 1 hex per 2 points of juice (2/1.5/1/0.5) [Cost increases by 1/0.75/0.5/0.25 juice per hex away from the lookamancer]. Can penetrate foolamancy by spending more juice than the foolamancer did to make the veil.
*Thinkamancy (secondary) Can send thinkagrams by spending 1 juice (cost doesn’t change). May dominate an enemy unit for (1/2/3/4) turns at a cost of 2 juice per hit of the enemy unit. [may reduce the cost of the domination by reducing its duration to 2/1.6/1.3/1; so a master class thinkamancer may dominate a unit for 1 turn at a cost of 1 juice per hit, or 2 turns at a cost of 1.3 juice per hit]. May link to another caster, allowing them to share a pool of juice, in addition to reducing juice costs by 5/10/15/20%. May create a three caster link, creating a combined pool between all three casters, allowing access to more awesome spells. Breaking the link has a 50/40/30/10% chance to kill each caster involved in the link.
*Foolamancy (secondary) Can veil units by spending 1 juice per hit (1 juice per hit/1.3/1.6/2). Can create illusionary doubles of units at the same cost rate. Increases effectiveness of veils by (20%/40%/60%/80%), and decreases their chance to be penetrated.

Hippiemancy (Primary)
*Flower Power (secondary) can prevent units from attacking at a cost of 1 juice per hit of enemy unit (1 hit per juice/1.3/1.6/2) or create plant creatures at a cost of 1 juice per hit (1 hit per juice/1.3/1.6/2) May poison a unit at a cost of 1 juice per 1/1.3/1.6/2 hits of the unit. The unit dies at the end of its turn. 100 juice, may prevent all combat in a hex for a turn.
*Signamancy (secondary) Can make units appear to be other units. Cost is 5 juice per point difference between unit hits (minimum 2 points in cost). (5 juice per point/4/3/2).
*Date-a-mancy (secondary) Can make units match to deal damage to specific units. Cost 2 juice per damage point (2/1.6/1.3/1). Increases damage caused by (10%/20%/30%/40%) [bonus damage from dateamancy does not incur additional juice cost, and is added after juice cost is taken into account. If your caster cannot cover the juice cost, then only damage they can cover is caused.

Naughtymancy (Primary)
*Shockamancy (secondary) can prevent units from attacking at a cost of 1 juice per 2 hits of enemy unit (2 hit per juice/2.6/3/2/4) Deal 1/1.3/1.6/2 hits per juice as an attack.
*Croakamancy (secondary) can convert deceased units into undead at a cost of 1 juice per hit (partial creations allowed).(1hit per juice/1.3/1.6/2)
*Rectonjuration (secondary) Can mimic the effects of any other branch of magic at an increased cost. Increases the effectiveness of all Retconjured spells. (cost 5 juice per juice of regular spell/4/3/2 | 20% effectiveness boost/40%/60%/80%)

Stagemancy (Primary)
*Hat Magic (secondary)Create a pair of linked hats for 20 juice (can be spent over multiple turns), which may then send items (such as those created by a dollamancer) between the two hats. Pull a unit (must be non-sentient) out of a hat for 5/4/3/2 juice per hit of the unit.
*Carnymancy (secondary) May add or subtract 1 from any die roll at the cost of 5/4/3/2 juice. May only be used once per roll. Must be reused on rerolls generated by predictamancy.
*Rhyme-o-mancy (secondary) Increases the move speed of a stack by 1 per 20/17/14/10 juice spent. Increases the effective juice spent by another caster by 1/1.3/1.6/2% per juice spent.


Clevermancy (Primary)
*Luckamancy (Secondary) You can transfer a die roll from one unit to another at a cost of 5 points per difference in die rolls [so a 4 rolled being replaced by a 6 costs 10 juice]. (5 juice per point difference/4/3/2).
*Healomancy (Secondary) Can heal 1 hit of damage at the cost of 1 juice. Increases heal spell effectiveness (1 dam/1.3/1.6/2.0|20%/40%/60%/80%)
*Moneymancy (Secondary) Increases income per turn by 1% per point of juice. (1%/2%/3%/5%) Can convert shmuckers into gems at a cost of 1 juice per 50 shmuckers. (50/75/100/150)


Cities
Spoiler: show
A city is a center of production and trade. Cities have levels as well as buildings that determine their function. One upgrade can be built per turn, and upgrades can be targeted and destroyed with siege. Unlike units, buildings do not have defense, but only hits that are only regenerated when there are no enemy units within 2 hexes of the city.

Upgrades cost 2500 * new upgrade level schmuckers, and takes 1 turn to construct. City Center Upgrades are special and take 1 turn per level to build, and cost 10k schmuckers per new city level.

City Center: Each level increases the city's level by 1. Starts at lvl 1, you must have at least (lvl-1) ^2 city improvements to level up the city (lvl 2 requires 1 upgrades, lvl 3 requires 4, lvl 4 requires 9, and lvl 5 requires 16 upgrades). Produces 1000 schmukers, 50 pop points, 10 wall defense, decreases garrison upkeep by 10%, stores 20 juice of defenses and has 1 production slot per level.

Barracks: Each level increases the number of units the city can produce by 1

Smithy: each level increases the number of pop points the city produces by 25

Tower: Each level increases the amount of stored defense juice by 20 points

Walls: Each level increases city defenses by 5

Slaughterhouse/Granary: Each level increases city income by 250 schmukers.

Storehouse: Each level decreases upkeep cost of garrison by 5%


Creating a Side:
Spoiler: show
All sides have to have one ruler. Ideally, they will also have 2-3 warlords and 1-2 casters, though these are not necessary. Rulers begin the game at lvl 3, though later units may be promoted to ruler at different levels. The initial ruler is presumed to have been popped as a ruler, and thus has 9 total trait points. Rulers may not be casters. Warlords at the beginning of the game are lvl 2, as are casters. They are presumed to have 4 trait points. Note: warlords/casters that are popped at a later time are assigned a random level from 1-3

All sides have five unit types to begin with. These are “standard” designs, and may not have a subtype. In addition, a side may have one additional unit design per level of a relevant caster trait. These must be of the same subtype as the caster. For example, a master croakamancer would grant the side four additional unit designs, all of which must be uncroaked.


Creating an initial Character
Spoiler: show
Whenever a character is made (warlord, ruler, caster) they have 20 points can be assigned between hits, attack, defense, and move. A character can not have more than 10 base hits (and must have at least 5 making it a medium unit). They gain 1 attribute point per trait they have as well, which can be assigned to any of the above stats (with the normal restrictions). Casters can also gain bonus juice at a rate of 5 points of juice per attribute point spent.


Need some help on finishing out the caster traits and city upgrades. Any advice on the empty slots? What sort of costs should I look to meet for city improvements? I'm thinking of just level * 2500 shmukers for upgrades and 10k*new city level to improve the town center.

Also looking for testers to play this game
Last edited by tigerusthegreat on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game

Postby Karadan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:16 pm

Lets see. First off, cool stuff. Second off, some thoughts.
And sorry in advance, I'm calling them skill trees, not trait trees :P

I think you need to expand the skill trees for rulers, warlords, and casters. Right now a ruler starts the game with 2 skills maxed and another at basic. That's a 40% income boost and a 40% upkeep reduction on top of some other small bonus. Now, having a bonus like that might not be a big deal (I mean, it kinda is, but everyone can get it), but it doesn't really leave any room for growth in your ruler. You have a similar problem with casters and warlords, but it is lessened by the fact that you'll want to get stuff like hardiness for your warlords and multiple schools of magic for your casters.

Okay, on to suggestions.

Findamancy - Something similar to Lookamancy, but much cheaper, and instead of getting to see the squares you try and find a particular type of unit (Siege for example) in the area, and get a yes/no hit on if it is there. Multiple casts might let you narrow down the location, but wouldn't tell you the type or side or anything (though would provide a good combo with a lookamancer)
Predictamancy - At a cost of 5/4/3/2 per attack, a Predictamancer may allow the attack to be rerolled. The reroll can itself be rerolled.
Mathamancy - Superior information on potential unit matchups give a side .1/.25/.4/.5% bonus to attack and defense per juice spent

Turnamancy - I think you need to put the thinkamancy dominate here. Produce 1/1.3/1.6/2 pop points per juice, only usable in cities. Master Turnamancer only spell, requires 100 juice to cast, and costs 300 juice, potentially draining into future turns to make a side skip their turn. They produce revenue, pop things, and require upkeep, but cannot move units, attack, or change build orders.
Dollomancy - Able to create artifacts for units to increase various stats or grant special abilities such as flight. Cost varies. All items are permanent, but may have limited uses. May heal cloth golems as a healomancer heals other units.
Weirdomancy - Able to increase a units movement at a cost of 10/9/7/5 juice per point increased. Able to allow one unit to ignore the wall bonus of a city at the same cost. Able to remove a special, or add one (such as flying) for a turn at a cost of ... I don't know... 20/17/13/10. Able to create a portal. Portals are two way and each portal can only link to one other portal. Each portal must be made individually, and the caster must be present to create each portal. Each portal costs 200 juice, which may be spent over multiple turns.

Dirtamancy - Able to reduce the cost of upgrading or building a city or city improvements by 1/1.3/1.6/2% per juice spent (maximum 50% reduction). May create and heal crap/mud/dirt/rock golems as per a dollomancer. May create up to 20/40/70/100 juice worth of traps in a hex which deal 1/1.3/1.6/2 hit per juice to any enemy stack entering the hex. Dirtamancer may activate/deactivate the traps at will as long as they are within the hex. Active traps always spring on the first stack from another side that enters them.
Changeamancy - Can turn a unit into another unit. Costs 1 juice per 1/1.3/1.6/2 pop points difference between the two units.
Dittomancy - I think you've got this fairly well covered.

Lookamancy - A bit more clarification on the foolamancy/lookamancy interaction would be nice, but otherwise looks fine. Might want to include an additional cost based on distance (so closer hexes are cheaper to prevent people spying enemy capitals with impunity)
Thinkamancy - Change the dominate to a temporary effect that lasts one turn. May link to another caster, allowing them to share a pool of juice, in addition to reducing juice costs by 5/10/15/20%. May create a three caster link, creating a combined pool between all three casters, allowing access to more awesome spells. Breaking the link has a 50/40/30/10% chance to kill each caster involved in the link.
Foolamancy - As per veil, may also make a stack look as though it contains double the number of units.

Flower Power - May poison a unit at a cost of 1 juice per 1/1.3/1.6/2 hits of the unit. The unit dies at the end of its turn. 100 juice, may prevent all combat in a hex for a turn.
Signamancy - I like it.
Date-a-mancy - Good stuff :)

Shockamancy - Deal 1/1.3/1.6/2 hits per juice as an attack.
Croakamancy - Sounds good.
Retconjuration - Very interesting, I like it.

Hat Magic - Create a pair of linked hats for 20 juice (can be spent over multiple turns), which may then send items (such as those created by a dollamancer) between the two hats. Pull a unit (must be non-sentient) out of a hat for 5/4/3/2 juice per hit of the unit.
Carnymancy - May add or subtract 1 from any die roll at the cost of 5/4/3/2 juice. May only be used once per roll. Must be reused on rerolls generated by predictamancy.
Rhyme-o-Mancy - Increases the move speed of a stack by 1 per 20/17/14/10 juice spent. Increases the effective juice spent by another caster by 1/1.3/1.6/2% per juice spent.

Luckamancy - Looks good
Healomancy - Not much to say here.
Moneymancy - Dittomancer says "Not much to say here, can't say much here."

Whew, so, that was quite an exercise. Feel free to change the points costs on stuff, because I just pulled them out of thin air for the most part.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:34 pm

Your ideas mimic mine along the key points, but I really like your ideas for many of the schools of magic (findamancy is simply brilliant and not something I would have thought of).

any ideas on additional traits for rulers?

Maybe have one solely for dealing with natural allies? Move the diplomacy bonus there as a primary, but I'm kinda at a loss for the rest. Maybe broad-spectrum bonuses for natural allies. Besides just reducing their trait count (which gimps them as commanders) I'm not sure what to do with rulers otherwise.


Hmm...what about in order to improve a primary tree you have to have at least 2 points in secondary trees per level of primary tree? So to upgrade to lvl 2 hardiness you have to have 2 points between melee attack, defense, or ranged attack. I worry this may not make sense for casters, but I think it'll need combat tests.

Hmmm...what about having another general caster tree operates as a general caster improvement tree. Something like

Student of Magic (Primary): Increases juice by 25/50/75/100
Student of Creation (Secondary): Increases juice efficiency of unit creation spells by 25%/50%/75%/100%
Student of Psychology (Secondary): Increases juice efficiency of spells that effect units by 25%/50%/75%/100%
Student of Divination (Secondary): Increases juice efficiency of spells that reveal information by 25%/50%/75%/100%

So if you master 2 traits in this tree, you get a much larger juice pool, and much more efficient spells (a croakamancer with student of creation would be able to make undead at a rate of 4 hits per unit of juice (double of a master croakamancer's rate of 2 hits per point of juice). He would also have 140 juice to do it with.

Alternatively he could have spread out his skills and been a master croakamancer and a master foolamancer, had a 2 to 1 hits/juice ratio, 80 juice, and also be able to veil units at a 2 to 1 hits/juice ratio.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:23 pm

I think for testing I'd like for players to be on the same side; so I'll need:

1 Ruler
1 Chief Warlord
at least 1 warlord
at least 1 caster (preferably 2)
Prehendo Victoria - My first erfworld story. Comment thread

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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game

Postby Karadan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:55 pm

Well, I'm just glad I didn't have to do anything for date-a-mancy :P

Instead of additional traits for rulers, you could perhaps have ruler traits cost 2 points each. That way you can't start out with a maxed out ruler, and have to make real decisions between being better at ruling and being able to hold his/her own in combat.

I like the additional magic tree, though I think the specialties should be the three disciplines of magic (Fate, Erf, Numbers) to make it a bit easier to suss out. I'd also suggest slightly smaller boosts, as right now they provide about the same boost as mastering the actual class itself, but to multiple schools of magic. This creates the problem of a Master Student of Erf (or Creation or whatever) being effectively a master in a potentially large number of different types of magic for a comparatively low price. Perhaps halve it to a 50% boost at max level, and drop juice just a bit to 20/40/60/80. Of course it's hard to say for sure how much the numbers should be adjusted (if at all) without some playtesting. The problem with leaving it at 100% however is that you can have a level 10 caster with master Magic/Erf and who is a novice in 6 schools of magic, all of which act as though they're a master (along with 160 juice to spend on all those options) compared to a level 10 caster who is a master of two schools and adept in another with only 100 juice. Or a master Magic/Erf with Master in one school (which acts like a double master) and adept in another (which acts slightly above master) and who has 160 juice. Obviously the caster without the student of magic loses out, not just in juice (which might be reasonable for having mastered two skills) but also in number of skills mastered compared to the first example. If you change it to 50%, then the first example would still have more juice (which makes sense, they're getting a skill which is designed to boost juice), and have six schools at roughly adept level, which is seems more evenly matched with the other two possibilities. Case 1 is maximum flexibility with lowest max power, Case 2 is reasonable flexibility with good max power, and case 3 is minimal flexibility with max max power.

I don't think the secondary tree requirement is needed, because you won't see too many cases of someone raising a primary but not a secondary. You did a good job of placing nice but not necessarily the best boosts as the primary.


A few thoughts on additional ruler traits if you'd like to add them:
Overseeing (secondary (under rulership)): Increase schmuckers generated in the city the ruler is in by 20/40/60/80%. Bonus is lost if the ruler ends turn outside a city.
Coordinator (Primary): Provides 5/10/15/20% of the bonuses obtained from Warlord traits to all units on the side. (A ruler with master coordinator and master leadership would provide all units with a 16% hits bonus)
Training (secondary): Provides experience to a unit or units in the same hex as the ruler at the end of a turn. Experience may be divided up as desired among any number of units. (I don't know what kind of xp amounts would be fair). A unit may not train itself.
Mixed Unit Tactics (secondary): Also increases the effectiveness of Coordination by 25/50/75/100% so long as the stack in question has at least 3 different kinds of units in it (Kinds of units defined as: Warlord/Caster/Ruler, Infantry, Cavalry, Flyers, Siege). (A ruler with master coordinator, leadership, and mixed unit tactics would provide a 32% hits bonus to all units so long as their stack contains at least 3 different kinds of units.)
Magic Tactics (secondary): Provides a 5/10/15/20% bonus to the efficiency of spells cast by the ruler's side.
Lead by Example (secondary): Provides units in the same hex with 25/50/75/100% of the bonus provided by the ruler's hardiness tree.

So, this tree is largely focused on a warrior leader and is particularly useful for a warlord who got designated as an heir, allowing them to continue to use their combat bonuses without having to be at risk in battle, or a bigger bonus if still in battle via Lead by Example. I also included another skill for more financially minded rulers to invest in. Specializing in one or the other should allow your ruler to either be a massive source of income, or a massive source of combat bonuses. Either way the ruler is very important and the loss of the ruler might lead to the end of a side if the replacement isn't up to snuff.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby Karadan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:55 pm

I'd likely prefer to be a caster to be honest :D I do so love magic.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby ETheBoyce » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:11 am

I'm not certain I like the current way skills are handled. The idea that some skills would have prerequisites makes sense, but I'm not sure that trees are the best form for it. For instance I don't think that a Ranged Attack skill should be tied to the Hits skill, archers are not exactly known for their ability to survive in combat.

I think this applies especially to Casters, just because a Caster is good at their particular mancy should mean they'd be better at another subset; Just because you're good at Dirtamancy doesn't mean you'd be better at Dittomancy. If the idea is to limit the rate at which a Caster can become a Master, perhaps you should increase the cost of increasing a Casting Skill.

Another thought is that skills should perhaps give flat bonuses rather than percentages, I'm not sure what your idea behind what a standard unit would be, but an unimproved level 1 city has 50 pop points, Let's create a basic unit: 5 hits, 5 attack, 5 defense, 3 move, and no specials; this unit would cost 325 pop points and 1300 Smuckers and has very little going for it. Under the current system this unit will have to specialize, putting point exclusively into hits and Hardiness for four levels to even get a full effect for each of its Trait Points, and this unit would require a cities whole allotment of PP unless it was level 5. A unit with smaller stats, and thus being more affordable, would barely get any benefit at all from combat talents.

Also you should probably change the creation formula, squaring hits will make popping any unit bigger than small with worthwhile stats take quite some time, a Large Unit (10 hits) with only 2 attack, defense, and move would require 600 PP, which is more than most Cities would be capable of (Assuming increasing Town Hall gives linear bonuses)
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:13 am

I think we'll test it without the bonus general school for casters and the extra traits for rulers and see how it goes.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:29 am

Well, the long pop times would be in keeping with Erfworld lore though. It isn't noticed alot because most sides tend to have tons of units, but at the same time, whenever talking about how quickly units pop, it tends to be at a slow rate. Jillian had to spend tons of turns getting just a few megagwiffs and her heir will take... what, 60 turns? GK only seems to be producing one twoll or so every turn.

Also, I personally like the % based improvement, because it means that an expensive and a cheap unit get similar benefits from leveling. If it was flat it would be in your better interest to get massive numbers of weak units, then level them once or twice to double their combat effectiveness, as opposed to an expensive unit leveling and gaining only a small % increase. For example, if a unit has 4 hits, and it gets a trait to raise it to 5, thats a 25% increase, making the increase very valuable for the unit. If a unit with 100 hits gets a trait to raise it to 101, it has only gotten a 1% increase, making the increase nearly worthless for the unit.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:34 am

Karadan wrote:Well, the long pop times would be in keeping with Erfworld lore though. It isn't noticed alot because most sides tend to have tons of units, but at the same time, whenever talking about how quickly units pop, it tends to be at a slow rate. Jillian had to spend tons of turns getting just a few megagwiffs and her heir will take... what, 60 turns? GK only seems to be producing one twoll or so every turn.

Also, I personally like the % based improvement, because it means that an expensive and a cheap unit get similar benefits from leveling. If it was flat it would be in your better interest to get massive numbers of weak units, then level them once or twice to double their combat effectiveness, as opposed to an expensive unit leveling and gaining only a small % increase. For example, if a unit has 4 hits, and it gets a trait to raise it to 5, thats a 25% increase, making the increase very valuable for the unit. If a unit with 100 hits gets a trait to raise it to 101, it has only gotten a 1% increase, making the increase nearly worthless for the unit.



I think it breaks with erf-lore because the commander bonuses are also percentage based, so in the infamous chief warlord stacked with simple units becoming effective heavies doesn't really happen....sure they become powerful, but not that powerful (and I don't plan on having a +chief warlord level to attack of all units in his stack thing).

I like the fact that in this system its easy to make thinks like natural shockamancers, they are just expensive (like the archons are implied to be), and of course you can always get to be natural shockamancers as they level, but then you loose out on other things.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby ETheBoyce » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:40 am

Yes but percentage increases on small units are roughly nonexistant. A Unit with 4 or lower in a Stat gets no benefit at all from a level in a percentage-based skill. In a fight between two units with disparate abilities under a percentage stytem, leveling them both up would actually reduce the chances of the low-stat unit of being able to do anything, while the flat system keeps the variability equal.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:35 am

True, 4 or less in a stat means a single level by itself is meaningless, but units rarely exist in a void.

The difference between a level 1 stabber and a level 2 stabber might not be that the level 2 stabber has 1 higher attack, but that the level 2 stabber has 1 higher attack when led, while the level 1 stabber still has its original attack.

Put an army of level 2 stabbers up against an army of level 1 stabbers and it is an even fight. Now add leadership to both sides, and suddenly the level 2 stabbers have a significant advantage. Also consider that a level gives a unit a flat point that can be spent on a stat in addition to the trait. So actually even in an unled fight the level 2 stabber will be better, and in a led fight it could be significantly better. Using flat bonus from level and % bonus from traits allows you to give weak units a noticeable boost in the form of the flat bonus, while also not gimping high powered units thanks to the % based boost.

And yeah, the % boosts break erfworld lore, but I figure some concessions have to be made at times. I didn't figure an exact copy of Erfworld was attempting to be made, but I was just pointing out that it isn't so weird that units might take a while to pop. It's often wise to include exponential growth in cost to benefit ratios to various parts of a game to prevent overspecialization.

Edit: What level does a character start at? 2 as per the side creation info?

Edit2: You might want to make the look/fool opposition be separate from the cost of the spell itself. Just because a lookamancer spent a ton of juice to see the far side of the world shouldn't mean they blow any veil cast there. Perhaps instead foolamancers have the option of spending extra juice to improve the veil, and lookamancers spend extra juice to pierce potential veils. That way the 'defense' and 'offense' isn't based on how hard the spell is to cast, but on how much effort goes into purposefully preventing/enabling detection. Just a thought. I do agree with the level conversion part though.

Edit3: I think date-a-mancy needs a slight rework. Right now master class gives you 4 damage for every 10 juice spent (assuming optimal conditions). Master Shockamancy on the other hand gives 20 hits for every 10 juice spent. Unless the shockamancy is counted as an attack with 20 attack as opposed to 20 damage outright, there is an excessive discrepancy. And even if that is the case the Shockamancy still provides roughly 2 damage per 1 juice spent while date-a-mancy provides only .4 damage for every juice spent. Mathamancy only provides a .5 damage per juice, but it has the advantage of also being able to work on defense and allowing low attack units to harm high defense units more easily. I'm aware that some schools should be a bit better at causing damage than others, but that seems like too big of a discrepancy to me unless there is some other mitigating factor (such as mathamancy being able to be used anywhere on the side as opposed to in a particular hex only). I'd suggest increasing the damage bonus on date-a-mancy to 25/50/75/100% from 10/20/30/40%. You might also include a damage mitigation ability, so it is less effective than shockamancy, but has more flexability.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby ETheBoyce » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:07 am

But high powered units are not gimped by straight bonuses in any way, they just don't become more powerful when compared to even level units. A Unit with 9 Attack with 1 Level 1 Skill and a 10% leadership bonus has an effective attack of 11, whereas a 7 attack with the same bonuses has an effective attack of 8, meaning the difference in their relative attack ability has increased from 2 to 3. Contrast to the flat system where the first unit's effective Attack is still 11, but the latter's is now 9. The first unit loses no power in comparison to the second.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:00 am

But a one to one unit comparison based on absolute values isn't fair as it doesn't take into account the fact that the high powered unit costs more to pop and maintain.

Instead you should be looking at 2 weaker units against a single stronger unit which would cost roughly twice as much as one of the weaker ones. Taking 2 attack 5 units compared to 1 attack 10 unit and a leadership bonus of 10%.

At level 1 the big unit has 11 effective attack, while each of the smaller has 5.5 effective attack, which adds up to 10 total effective attack. When they increase to level 2, they all gain 1 attack and a 10% attack boost. This increases the big unit to 13.2 attack, or 13 effective, and the smaller units go up to 7.2 each, or 14 total effective attack. So, in absolute values the smaller units have grown more. They've also grown more in relative value than the big unit. This is because, quite simply, flat bonuses favor weak but numerous units, and % bonuses favor few strong units only in limited circumstances where the bonus is large enough to raise the big unit's statistic by at least one point and not enough to raise the lower units by a point.

So, overall the system still slightly favors hoards of small units over a few elite units, but the difference is small enough that I think it is alright, as a few elite units have other hidden advantages such as simply being seriously wounded where the hoard would have lost multiple units. Also some mancy boosts would be notably more effective on smaller groups of elite units. Weirdomancy in particular comes to mind.
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Re: Need help finishing up an erf-like game -> need testers

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:35 am

I'm hoping it will all balance out....

Do I have any interest in players besides karadan? and yes a caster would start at lvl 2


Casters/Warlords start at lvl 2

Chief Warlord starts at lvl 3

Ruler starts at lvl 3
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Re: Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:33 pm

Quick question about retcon - What level is the spell it mimics at? Like does a master retconer mimic master spells at a 2:1 cost, or is it a mimic of the basic spell level?
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Re: Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:09 pm

Karadan wrote:Quick question about retcon - What level is the spell it mimics at? Like does a master retconer mimic master spells at a 2:1 cost, or is it a mimic of the basic spell level?


At novice level, no matter the retconjurer's level. I'm debating if that will make it useless or not. I may allow it to be used at the same level of retconjuration, but restrict it to mimicking one school per turn.
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Re: Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:25 pm

tigerusthegreat wrote:
Karadan wrote:Quick question about retcon - What level is the spell it mimics at? Like does a master retconer mimic master spells at a 2:1 cost, or is it a mimic of the basic spell level?


At novice level, no matter the retconjurer's level. I'm debating if that will make it useless or not. I may allow it to be used at the same level of retconjuration, but restrict it to mimicking one school per turn.

That's kinda what I was thinking and why I asked. I mean, as it stands a master retconer is half as effective as a novice anything else. Sure, the retconner has unparalleled flexability, but I think it comes at too high a cost. Heck, a novice retconner can't do anything at all really. Takes 10 juice to mimic a 2 hit shockamancy spell? I like the 'one school per turn' thing, as it basically means that each turn they retcon themselves into being a different type of mancer. They are effectively a mancer of the type at the same level, and perhaps adjust the cost to simply always be double regardless of level. This means novices can still use other schools, it is just going to drain them more than if they were actually in that school of magic. Perhaps add an option to spread their retcon over multiple schools. LIke a master reconner could be a master croakamancer or an adept of two other schools or a novice in 4 of them or some combination thereof.
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Re: Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:35 pm

How about this for Retcon:
A retconner may convert their ranks in retcon into ranks in any other trait for a cost of 10 juice per rank. They are treated in all ways as if they legitimately had the new ranks with the following exceptions: Their spells cost twice as much juice as they otherwise would. They still have access to all Retcon related traits/abilities/spells. They do not need to follow the normal restrictions on secondary skills by primary skills for these moved ranks, and don't even require novice in the primary trait to access the secondary. For example, a master retconner could spend 20 juice to act in all ways like an advanced Foolamancer, then spend 20 juice to also act like a novice dirtamancer and novice Defensive tactics. After this the retconner would have to convert one of the three previous talents into a new talent, as all 4 ranks of talents have been assigned. A retconner may not access ruler talents.

This basically means that a retconner has to pay for their flexability both in increased spell costs, and a cost to shuffle around what they can cast. Also I left it open to allow retconning into general and even warlord skills, but you can take that out if you want, just thought it might be interesting.
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Re: Need Testers for an Erf-Like Game

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 am

Going to leave retcon as is for testing, do I have any other testing interest but Karadan?
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