New Erf Rules Overhaul

[Twoy]

Before handling more esoteric suggestions, like what other critters to invent, how about we discuss some basic things (arguments hidden in spoiler tags):

1. "Pop an heir" is a useless action

Spoiler: show

It takes 60 turns. In the context of these games having a turn-over rate of about twice per week (for good weeks), this makes popping an heir take half a year in real time.

Meanwhile, it is possible to promote a unit to heir for a very low sum of money. Where "very low" means "less than what the city would produce in income during 60 turns". Since upgrading units is almost the only thing Schmuckers purchase, and popping heirs would block a city's production for 60 friggin' turns, I feel confident that NOBODY will pop an heir, EVER, and choose to promote a unit instead.

This makes this action useless.

There are some rules that are in there because that is the way Erfworld functions according to the comic. Also, please note that a level 5 city produces an heir in 15 turns. You can speed that up a lot with either turnamancy or moneymancy.

2. Several Shockamancy spells are useless (to Shockamancers)

Spoiler: show

Several Shocka spells have descriptions like "treat as Variant of Hadouken, but with more cost". So let's see: same effects as a spell that ALL casters have anyway, at twice the cost? Bollocks.

This was probably put in so that Basic Shocka units (Knights, D-class) don't get too powerful. Fair enough, but one shouldn't nerf Shockas in the process.

Check the rules again. The shockamancer spells ignore defense, which makes the spells very powerful against high defense stacks. For example a full stack of wild unit dwagons would have a defense of 160. A Greater Hadoken spell would do 0 damage to the stack, whereas a Chain Lightning spell would croak two of the dwagons.

3. Popping a Warlord is nigh-useless

Spoiler: show

The only reason to pop a Warlord is trying to get a caster. Otherwise, warlords take long to pop, are usually a worse kind of unit that what anyone can design as Knight class, and again promotion is better than halting production.

This hurts the game a lot for another reason: warlords are essential for almost anything that involves side development. Moving funds, exploring ruins, establishing cities and resource points ...

I think we need to test the game to establish whether this is true or not. Also your argument that warlords take too long to pop, but that they have great value for doing lots of things seems to be contradictory. So far in the Elder Gods game, we have some players popping warlords and some promoting them. Also, keep in mind that warlords popping can be sped up by moneymancers and turnamancers.

4. Resource points are nigh-useless

Spoiler: show

In the early game, particularly for a slow start (only the Chief and maybe one L1 city), they are indeed essential.

Otherwise though, once you get a few economic powerhouses, aka high-level cities, it really is waaaay too boring to have your chiefs spend months out in the field, just to establish mines that deliver a mere fraction of what the cities deliver.

Also needs to be tested, but really... The existence of a rule does not force a side to useit. Make mines if you want to and don't make them if you don't want to.

5. The game is too damn slow!

And I won't spoiler hide this one. It takes 5 turns or whatever to pop a mine. It takes 8 turns or whatever to pop a warlord. Do you think anyone will still be playing in month 3, which is when, due to slow turn-over rate, we'll get to have a second warlord?! Second warlord, yay. Now I have two people to send out for months at a time to build mines.

Be realistic. There's no way a human GM can manage a whole Erf sim in such a way to balance high turn-over rate, real-life commitments, and several players who have yet to post their orders. Think in these terms: two turns a week is the best you can hope for, so make it so that a lot can be done in two turns.

I've started playing two Erf-sims game, and watched a third. NONE survived to the point where players actually did something interesting like campaigns. I'm playing another Erf-sim, which I fear will go the same way. The speed issue must be fixed, pronto.

That is why I made the fast start rule. Yo get an heir and a warlord and lots of shmuckers so that you can start popping units faster. I really don#t understand why every Erfworld GM so far has preferred starting with the Lone Ranger start. I can tell you that I have no interest in processing 40 turns of orders for 5 players just to get to where we would be on Turn 10 with the Fast Start.

[Twoy]

MY OWN ISSUES

the biggest issue i see with the game system is a lack of thought. Sorry if it offends but it looks like your sticking too closely to the comics, which means there are a lot of questions unanswered before you even begin, and we don't know if you can pop a city or if mathamacy works the way we think it does because it hasn't been explained yet in the comic.

Second issue is that warlord bonuses seem too small to me, if we take transilvito as an example there is no way we could take crap units and give them the equivalent attack score as knights using these rules where-as it seems entirely possible in erfworld.

We did put in the capability to pop cities from nothing. I realize it is not cannon, but the game seems to work better that way.

Seven scouts with 3/2/2/18 and a Chief Warlord level 6 would make the scouts competitive with unlead Knights. The level 6 CW would give a times 1.8 to all units in its stack and a times 1.4 for units in its hex for a combined times 2.2. Add that to the stack bonus makes it 3.2. Assuming the warlord had a 12 attack and 12 defense, the stack total attack and defense would be: 83 each. Compared to a full stack of stabbers with no warlord, Att/Def: 80/48 or pikers, 64/80.
3.2, 3.5, 3.6
Or compare it with a stack of Koopa Kingdom knights: 10/7/6/26 Stack total Att/Def: 112/96. Yes, the scouts would lose versus the knights, but now make the warlord level 9 which Caesar Borgata was in the part of the comic you are referencing and that puts the scouts at 94/94. That is almost as powerful as knights.

[BLANDCorporatio]

1. "Pop an heir" is a useless action

There are some rules that are in there because that is the way Erfworld functions according to the comic. Also, please note that a level 5 city produces an heir in 15 turns. You can speed that up a lot with either turnamancy or moneymancy.

Rules existing just because the comic says they should is not smart. And fine, 15 turns on a L5 city. Or how about, save 3-and-a-half turns of income from that same city and promote a unit to heir (or just wait to pop a Warlord for the 4 turns, then promote that to heir)?

About magic, more later.

2. Several Shockamancy spells are useless (to Shockamancers)

Check the rules again. The shockamancer spells ignore defense, which makes the spells very powerful against high defense stacks.

So they are. My bad.

3. Popping a Warlord is nigh-useless

I think we need to test the game to establish whether this is true or not. Also your argument that warlords take too long to pop, but that they have great value for doing lots of things seems to be contradictory. So far in the Elder Gods game, we have some players popping warlords and some promoting them. Also, keep in mind that warlords popping can be sped up by moneymancers and turnamancers.

There's no contradiction between "too long to pop" and "useful for many actions". You need warlords for many actions that "advance" the game, like building cities, upgrading them, exploring ruins, leading units in the field, etc. Since Warlords are slow to pop, games start slow, and stay slow for a while.

4. Resource points are nigh-useless.

Also needs to be tested, but really... The existence of a rule does not force a side to useit. Make mines if you want to and don't make them if you don't want to.

It makes me very angry to see a callous disregard for game rules/features like that. "Oh, they're there, who cares whether they're useful or not".

My take on mines and resource points is that they are useful for a slow start, lose usefulness midgame when city expansion upgrade can still happen, and become useful again as a way to increase in any way possible the amount available for upkeep later on. That said, the increase is low, and the annoyance of building them is large.

5. The game is too damn slow!

That is why I made the fast start rule. Yo get an heir and a warlord and lots of shmuckers so that you can start popping units faster. I really don#t understand why every Erfworld GM so far has preferred starting with the Lone Ranger start. I can tell you that I have no interest in processing 40 turns of orders for 5 players just to get to where we would be on Turn 10 with the Fast Start.

This has been very wise. Indeed, during the 8 turns so far all sides have managed to do quite a few things, as well as maybe kick themselves for not doing enough maybe. I'm certainly slightly regretting my original caster choice, and my availability to test the usefulness of mines (if only to prove that they are useless).

But on that note, MAGIC! I think the time is due to rant about why the spells of the current rules need massive overhauls.

Just a quick note: look at the kingdoms in EG. You'll see one with just 3 cities (mine) because I played weird. You'll see two others that are in worse shape than mine, and you'll see two that are massively developped. Looking at the map, it's obvious who's who.

I conjecture it's not coincidence that both of the super-developped sides have Moneymancers, nor is it coincidence that both underdevelopped have Thinkamancers. I'd further note that my lands, weird as they are, would be in much worse shape were it not for a Dirtamancer.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Ok, magic rant time.

There are so many reasons why the system is ill-considered it's hard to know where to begin.

Let's start with, it's intended to ape the comic instead of creating a playable TBS. Thinkamancy is the main culprit here. "Two way Thinkagram"? Be serious. If I want to talk to a player, I'll just PM them. If I want my units to coordinate, they will coordinate, communication rules between warlords be damned. Also, observe that EG fitted Eyebooks into play. And, a map for everyone. "I told you so".

Next, some classes of spells are useless. Mathamancy is useless, Retconjuration is pointless, Predictamancy is impossible to enforce. I pity the foo (who may well turn out to be me) who has their first popped caster a Mathamancer or Predictamancer. These schools of magic might be useful in a story RPG setting, where the GM has a few events planned in advance, but even then they should have a different status than player units, because their uses to players are very limited.

Some classes of magic are incredibly powerful. Moneymancy is a must for early game, fast start. Dirtamancy (my own choice) is a not too distant second (as far as starting is concerned), turnamancy is also superb (and surpasses dirtamancy as casters grow in level). Other magic schools for now appear less useful than these three. Specifically, if we were playing a slow start, then the first popped caster being a Moneymancer would be an incredible amount of luck, and an enormous handicap to anyone who didn't pop a moneymancer, or at least a dirtamancer or turnamancer.

Spell balancing is sacrificed to lack of imagination. Lack of imagination is easy to illustrate: several schools have spells that go "Spell A: do X", "Spell A': do X, but on a wider area", "Spell A'': do X, but wider still", "Spell A''': do X, for all the side". Balance being sacrificed is because a spell that increases production at the level of an entire side is massively more powerful than its cost suggests. It's these mass spells that make Turnamancy and Moneymancy head and shoulders above all other disciplines, must haves, and kills the game. Btw, Pay Cut (affects all units on a side, reduces upkeep by 1/5): does it stack with itself? Does it last forever? Does it affect units not yet popped if it lasts forever? Specify please.

Finally, there's a certain lack of elegance when some schools have 30 spells (most of which are A, mass A, uber-mass A, win the game A) whereas others have 4 (Changeomancy) or 2 (Mathamancy).

In conclusion: yea casters are powerful, yea that's how it's supposed to be, BUT: not all casters are powerful, only two schools really are worth investing in, and further, those schools are must haves for a chance of winning. EG is a co-op game, so I can play "loosely" and explore what I view as lesser avenues, but were it a PvP game I'd start Moneymancer and try to get a Turnamancer ASAP- and so will everyone. The magic system is inelegant, unimaginative, and anyone can crack a better one in an afternoon. I think even I did, and whether or not my attempt gets ignored is irelevant to the issue that the present system needs replacement.

[marshalkowski]

Bland,
Interesting post. There are points I heartily agree with, but on your point about Thinkamancy, I think you're sorely mistken. It speaks to the very nature of the game, in my eyes.

(NOTE: Admittedly, because this is a co-op game where our Titan has given us a view the entire map (that we inhabit) and a set of eyebooks to communicate with, Thinkamancy becomes less valuable.)

In a normal game as I see it played, Thinkamancy is critical, which is why I chose it for my first caster.

New Erf is uniquely suited for a forum setting rather than table top because of how huge the Fog of War factor is. In the comic, what each side can see and can't see is pivotal to their decision making, and I think that should be a big part of New Erf, too. That's why there's a 8-10 Hex limit on the natural Thinkamancy of a scout. You should be blind otherwise. When your scout or unit returns to a city, they can give you information about what they saw in each hex, but to expect a comprehensive view of the map in a normal game defeats the purpose.

"Two way Thinkagram"? Be serious. If I want to talk to a player, I'll just PM them.

This is where you really lose me. It's like playing Monopoly and saying, "Rolling the dice? Be serious. I can just pick up my piece and place it on Free Parking."

Yes, you have the resources to just PM another player, but you're playing within the ruleset of a game. You're expected to use the tools the ruleset gives you. If you disagree with the rule that you can't just PM another player when you want, then I think you may not want to be playing a game in the Erfworld universe.

If I want my units to coordinate, they will coordinate, communication rules between warlords be damned.

I agree with this for the most part, though with one caveat. You can control Warlords independently of Ruler's orders, that's kind of the point of them, they're an autonomous leader in the field. However, once your units are in the field, they probably only have sight of their hex, it's your responsibility to keep track of where they are. You can coordinate a meet-up between two warlords (call it natural Thinkamancy empowered by Leadership), but if your math is off, they could pass each other like two ships in the night.

That said, I agree with most of your other points. Mathamancy is far too limited right now. And I think Signamancy is a little misunderstood right now, but that's mostly for lack of information, all we've really seen are natural effects of it, not spells.

The scalable spells are kind of a classic wargame trope, so they don't bother me as much, but some more variety in addition to those would be a positive addition.

In short, yes there are shortcomings in the New Erf spell system, but I think it's an admirable start, given that we're all trying to piece together a ruleset out of a world we've only half-seen.

[HerbieRai]

A few notes on the current game. I know your saying that your not doing "as well" as some of us that have expanded a lot because you built a mine or so. I have built a mine and 2 farms from the start, and the only reason I've expanded like I did was because I know this is a co op, and I am surrounded by allies. In this co op environment I think we shouldn't have been told about the greater threat. I know I and the Mini Titans were close to fighting, which would have stopped our expansion and forced us to fight each other.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I know your saying that your not doing "as well" as some of us that have expanded a lot because you built a mine or so.

Nitpick, but that's not why I didn't expand. There's another reason why I have only 3 cities- for now.

[BLANDCorporatio]

"Two way Thinkagram"? Be serious. If I want to talk to a player, I'll just PM them.

This is where you really lose me. It's like playing Monopoly and saying, "Rolling the dice? Be serious. I can just pick up my piece and place it on Free Parking."

I understand your point, but I don't think it applies. If we were sitting at a table, then me picking up the pieces and placing them wherever is blatant and impossible to miss. Are "you" sure that I didn't convene with another player to do a pincer maneuver on your Kingdom though? There's no way to check. (And despite neither of us meanies having a Thinkamancer?)

ADDED:

On the topic of warlords ordering units: this is fine. This rule is very easy to interpret and enforce. How does a non-led troll know to get to hex Wherever? Either a warlord told him this turn, or a warlord gave him a list of orders at some point in the past, and the troll, by following it, now has moving to Wherever to do.

Coordinating between warlords however cannot be imposed to happen through a communication mechanism. Lame as it is, warlords just may "happen" to act as if they knew they were supposed to meet at a certain hex. It's not impossible for several people to independently decide to get to the same location. So, requiring communication for coordination is un-enforceable.

The scalable spells are kind of a classic wargame trope, so they don't bother me as much, but some more variety in addition to those would be a positive addition.

Yeah, my basic complaint against scaling up spells is general and "aesthetic". It's just uncreative to pad out a spell school by what is basically the same spell, several times over.

What bothers me with the scalable spells in the ErfSim rules in particular is that the max-scale Moneymancy and/or Turnamancy spells are horribly broken. It is a huge advantage to be able to, side-wise, produce a third more than anyone without; it's also broken to afford 20% more than anyone else because of the upkeep reduction.

[marshalkowski]

I understand your point, but I don't think it applies. If we were sitting at a table, then me picking up the pieces and placing them wherever is blatant and impossible to miss. Are "you" sure that I didn't convene with another player to do a pincer maneuver on your Kingdom though? There's no way to check. (And despite neither of us meanies having a Thinkamancer?)

To your first point about the tabletop, that's why I think the rules are uniquely suited to a forum rather than a tabletop. My focus has become on using this game in a forum setting where you can create a fog of war by controlling information. (This is partly because I just moved and would love to introduce this game to my friends back where I used to live as a way to stay in touch.)

To your second point, about being "sure" that you didn't convene: No, I don't know, but if there's a rule that says you're not allowed to, I'd like to assume you won't as a matter of honor between players. If you're going to disobey the rules, what's the point of playing to begin with?

At the end of the day, I think the communication rules and fog of war idea add a level of immersion to the game, and they're worth having. If you're looking for something different in your game, that's your preference.

With all this said, I've got a few ideas about ways to streamline the game that I'm going to look at over the holiday. Because admittedly, one turn a week is too slow, but with 6 Sides in TMvEG, I can see how it's all a GM can handle. I'll keep everyone posted on what I come up with.

[BLANDCorporatio]

To your second point, about being "sure" that you didn't convene: No, I don't know, but if there's a rule that says you're not allowed to, I'd like to assume you won't as a matter of honor between players. If you're going to disobey the rules, what's the point of playing to begin with?

"Talk softly, but carry a big stick" T. Roosevelt supposedly said. Assume the best of people, but be prepared to handle that assumption being broken. So, for example, I'd like my rules to be robust (in as much as that is possible) against cheating.

At the end of the day, I think the communication rules and fog of war idea add a level of immersion to the game, and they're worth having. If you're looking for something different in your game, that's your preference.

And I think they add a level of unnecessary bother, but you are correct, it's up to me to come forth with alternative rules (and btw, I did. Check the previous page). Maybe we'll play those at some point.

With all this said, I've got a few ideas about ways to streamline the game that I'm going to look at over the holiday. Because admittedly, one turn a week is too slow, but with 6 Sides in TMvEG, I can see how it's all a GM can handle. I'll keep everyone posted on what I come up with.

I have one idea to speed things up, and I'm working on that, when I can spare a few minutes. We really need a better program for GMing. Right now for example, I run the SG accounting. Supposedly everyone does the same. It's a bad sign that the workload on the GM is such that it needs to be outsourced to players.

On the SW dev front, I'll have a hex map editor ready during the next days, holidays permitting. Once the file access thing from Flash is circumvented, the rest is a breeze.

(Why Flash?: the vector graphics it supports are easier to use than coding such from scratch *shudder* or using GL/GLUT- which would also work, but for me Flash Actionscript is more convenient. How to circumvent file access: Flash, wisely, does not allow file access to the client machine, as a safety feature; nonetheless, as of late other people have noticed that Flash makes a pretty decent App/GUI development tool, so Flash Projectors can extend the functionality in directions like file access. YAY!)

Once the hex ed is done, there'll be some work on the unit management/campaign management front, but for starters a hex ed is good to have.

[Twoy]

I have not looked at your new rules, Bland, because I do not want to get confused on which rules to use as I run TMvEG.

I am interested in playing in your game. If you guys would just hurry up and attack the Elder gods, we could get on to the next game.

Nihila's got enough forces in one hex to get the battle started. He just needs to get his stacks to the other side of the map.

[0beron]

Sorry for coming a bit late to the party, and sorry if this has been discussed already (since I only skimmed previous posts)
But scroll activation costing 10% of the juice is counter-cannon. The whole point of scrolls is that they require no juice to use, and even though that was only hinted at before, it's now been specifically proven with Wanda using that scroll during "Inner Peace"

[Twoy]

Where does it state that activating a scroll has no juice cost?

From the Wiki (Speculation):
It is not clear whether casting a spell from a scroll spends any of the caster's juice. If it costs any, it is significantly less than if the caster was casting the same spell without a scroll.

[0beron]

It has been heavily implied, and I think Parson said it at some point during his learning of about Magic but I don't have the slightest idea where. This however is a more recent citation:

Wanda had not cast a single spell in the fight, but that was in the plan as well.
Her juice had been intentionally preserved for the burned and broken spoils littering the courtyard far below.

She used the Dirtamancy Scroll, but it didn't take juice.

[jojolagger]

Hello, First time posting, but I've been Playing V 0.39 over on Giantitp.
A few things I've noticed so far.
Shumuckers are worthless. Okay, not worthless, but once you can get a few castings of minimum Wage, upkeep is easy, and you only want them to promote units. (3 castings roughly halves upkeep)

Spoiler: show

Findamancy = not very useful, you can't do trickery with leveling, and scouts cover most uses of this without taking up a caster slot.
Predictamancy = Useless, Fate is gone, as is it's abilities, and you can't do tricky leveling.
Mathamancy = Useless, Unless the GM is better at math than you.
Turnamancy = Super. Boost production is really good, prolong is useful, Benedict will be useful, and accelerate is cool (or awesome, not sure what the duration is).
Dollamancy = My caster(can access spookism up to 10% of juice). A set of Warlord scouts with fast boots, dance-fighting luarels and stat boosting items will be a force to be reckoned with). Golems are cool, but I'd honestly makes scrolls of create X and summon them in to combat.
Wierdomancy = Interesting. Attack abilities are cool, as is teleport, and chaosstat can create large pluses over a long time, but only averages a slight increase. Chaosspecial is almost to risky to use.
Dirtamancy = golems and traps. Meh.
Dittomancy = double stat line, double bonus, and extend spell are good. Xerox isn't nearly as good, as this is a long term game.
Changemancy = 75 scrolls of rewrite stat and a level 5 Changamancer = 75 hits wherever you want, retcon stat is useless, and edit terrain is awesome.
Thinkamancy = Don't start with one, but you'll need one later for when you want the links.
Foolamancy = 20%+ 2%/CL -1 %/Warlord level. assuming levels 1 to ten, range is 12% (1CL vs. 10 WL) to 39% (10 Cl to 1 WL)? Seems the range you want. Interesting, but unreliable.
Lookamancy = Thanks, But I'll use the nice, cheap scouts.
Flower Power = why give them single shot tree attacks instead of create Ent or the like? Also, casting peace on erf before marching into a city leads to a slaughter. Commune is different from other communes.
Signamancy = Not really useful, except unleading units, which is expensive as hell.
Date-a-mancy = Useful, but doesn't seem overly powerful.
Croakamancy = Flesh knitting can make uncroaked last forever, which specifically goes against the comic, where flesh knitting seems unable to to do much but stave of decay.
Shockamancy = Lasers. Lasers Everywhere. Whenever you aren't casting lasers you should be making scrolls of lasers. Ignore defense to deal damage means easy assassination.
Retconjuration = One of the breaks I was looking for was in a trick to get use of this. Because resetting 3 years of gameplay should never be allowed.
Carnymancy = Lacks filling out, but some interesting things here.
Hat Magic = Kinda of eh. Nothing really good.
Rhyme-o-mancy = Useful, But the last three are to ill defined to be used, and there are better ways to use dance fighting.
Healomancy = Antibiotic implies Toxin has a duration, though it doesn't list one. Otherwise, good but not super.
Moneymancy = Hurry production is another use for the little used shumuckers, and is still pretty good.
Luckamancy = What happens if a Level 10 caster casts Nudge the die on a d6? Can I get 16 on the roll for bonus in a combat?

More when not need slepp...

[HerbieRai]

A few quick answers.

1) the rules we created are still in a "Beta" phase. Many of the rules (especially magic rules) haven't had much testing to them, since a side first needs the caster to use the spells, and with the turn length the games have a larger tendancy to die off then normal PbP.

2) Nowhere in comic is it said that Erfworld is balanced. Even in comic, some casters types are probably way stronger than others. In these scenarios we can either follow the comic and let the game be broken, or change them to be more balanced.

3) Many of the magic lores are useful in comic because the rulers don't have an overview of the map. In comic, for Parson to get this view they had to use a trimancer link. We get it for free, which takes away the usefullness of thinkamancers, hat magicians (used for communications), and lookamancers. Also, these rules have gone through a few iterations, and sometimes a change in one area wasn't propigated to the others.

Do you have any suggestions for improvements?

[waylon531]

I would like to have some clarification on the rules. When it says that all units heal at the start of their turn, does that make them heal fully? Would that make healomancy useless? In one of the recent updates, it says Faq popped a warlord with the flying special. Should we give warlords upgrade points? Whet a unit has upgrade points, do you assign them permanently or when they pop? We should have a new spell for hat-magic that lets them create snowmen. Can't only Commanders build? Wouldn't that make the builder special useless?
Also, I made a formula for veil: W - C + 21

[SteveMB]

I would like to have some clarification on the rules. When it says that all units heal at the start of their turn, does that make them heal fully? Would that make healomancy useless?

The ability to heal in mid-turn has obvious advantages (e.g. units dangerously close to croaking can be healed and sent back into the fight).

[LTDave]

Shumuckers are worthless.

See, I think this is canon. In Book 1 we see Gobwin Knob with a heap of smuckers and few units. So many smuckers in fact that the side can afford to spend most of it on one scroll.
Clearly Smuckers can't be used to pop more units, increase the quality of units, or speed the popping of units. Otherwise, Stanley would have done all those things as the war went badly...

[BLANDCorporatio]

Schmuckers are useful, especially if paired with a Moneymancer. That's where I disagree with the otherwise spot-on analysis of jojolagger. Imo, Turnamancy and Moneymancy share top spot as by far the most useful disciplines as presented in that version of the spell compendium.

Dirtamancy isn't too bad early on, as it has some overlap with econ-boosting spells from Moneymancy. Once the Moneymancer can accelerate production of D-class units though, it's clear who wins that magic contest.