Summer Update - 020

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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby BRC » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:08 pm

DevilDan wrote:
BRC wrote:King Don is giving Jillian a very important lesson here, he's grooming her to suit his purposes.

Right now, Jillian is just a powerful front line unit and warlord. But he doesn't need that, he needs her as a royal, which means being able to "Take Tea".


If this discussion were only about etiquette, then why the "may" in the line below:

Don King looked at the empty cup and saucer in front of her, tilting his head slightly at it. "Why don't you like tea, Jillian?"

Jillian glanced down briefly, her brow wrinkled. "I dunno." She looked back up at her host. "Does it matter?"

"I feel it may."


BRC wrote:King Don's origional plan was to claim the FAQ site for Transylvito, but with the coalition falling apart, he's going a different tract. Instead, he's going to try to convince Jillian to go to FAQ and rebuild it, restarting the kingdom as an ally of Transylvito. If he simply makes it another city, all he gets is another Transylvito city, but a new Allied capital might be much more advantageous than one city. They could pop FAQ units to complement Translevitian troops, They would get to appoint a new chief warlord, plus get all the other baseline bonuses a side gets just for existing. And what's more, consiering Jillian's mindset, all of FAQ's resources will be directed towards beating Gobwin Knob, which is a boost for Translevito. If they beat Gobwin Knob, they may end up with a powerful ally that owes them alot of favors, or they may have a weak kingdom they can swoop into and capture for themselves now that it has outlived it's usefulness.


Faq was poor to begin with: they needed to rent out their soldiers just to get along. It's going to be much poorer and weaker now, and TV would have to heavily subsidize that kingdom if they expect a significant number of troops. It doesn't strike me as a worthwhile investment at this point. Besides, why not just send Caesar to take the ruins and save themselves the hassle of dealing with the unbalanced, uncouth "warrior princess?" I think that Faq's existence is low on the list of matters demanding the attention of the King in the post-TBfGK Erf. Whatever troops Faq could eventually contribute to fighting Stanley are likely not worth all this.

There's more here than TV wanting a tiny ally. Don King is likely a strategic thinker, and worrying about a few extra soldiers is not his concern at this point. What he needs is information, to find out what Stanley did, what his current capabilities are, and what he may do next.

The 'May" is because taking tea in of itself is unimportant. What's important is that Jillian's refusal to take tea symbolizes her refusal to play the political game. To act like anything more than a barbarian warlord. She refuses to Take tea because she see's it as a pointless ritual. If her viewpoint is that anything that is not directly practical should not be done, then she is worthless to him as anything but a frontline fighter. Those pointless rituals are important if you're going to play politics.

If King Don didn't need her to be any thing but a frontliner, he'd just send her to the front lines, a task she would gladly accept. But by testing her in this way it means he is at least considering some other use for her besides smashing stuff. The use that came off the top of my head was "Ruler of FAQ".

As for the viability of Re-founding FAQ as opposed to simply occupying it. I'll admit I worked backwards from my conclusion "Don King wants Jillian to re-found FAQ" to speculate on why that might be.

For example, maybe units get bonuses just for being Rulers or High Warlords. Maybe if a side is working out of it's origional capital, it grows alot faster than if somebody else came in to occupy it. FAQ had an extraordinary number of very skilled casters considering their size and situation, maybe different sides have different chances of popping Casters of various power levels, and FAQ's is especially high. Perhaps King Don is hoping that Jillian will re-found FAQ and pop a powerful Lookamancer or something.
Also, maybe FAQ was poor only because it isolated itself. Perhaps King Don looked at the map and said "If there really are three city-cites in there, they could make a killing off trade routes if they left their little valley".
Or Maybe he wants Jillian as a coalition-building tool. The scion of a kingdom that was totally destroyed by Stanley, now fighting against him. If she can smile and cry on cue, it would make a stirring, dramatic story. Currently pretty much everybody who was going to fight Stanley was part of the RCC and had their armies wiped out. Maybe he's hoping to use his "Hurt Princess" to stir the sympathies of other royals.
"This is Jillian, she was once a Royal, just like you. However, when Stanley the Tool came and sacked her kingdom, she was left with nothing, forced to become a barbarian mercenary in order to get upkeep for her units. Now, for only Shmuckers (And Armies) a day, you can help avenger Jillian and ensure this never happens again".

Just thinking up reasons Don King isn't simply grabbing the FAQ capital site, giving Jillian a squad of Goyles, and saying "Go Kill Gobwins".
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:23 pm

Some of that is interesting speculation.

As far as we know, though, it's the city that determines production and not its ruler—unless Rob was being deliberately misleading when he says that GK can pop most types of dwagons but cannot pop gwiffons.

Faq was isolated: access is only by tunnels or by a single flying route: it's not going to become a hub for commerce anytime soon unless they start pulling off tricks greater than Parson's trimancer trump card.

As for JIllian's symbolic use: it hardly seems that if Don King has trouble getting people to agree that Stanley's dangerous at this point that one or three more cities that he's conquered could make a difference. Wars in Erf don't require heartwarming or touching stories to sell them: all it takes is to convince a side's ruler.

Overall, I still don't think that it's Jillian's vast tracts of land that interest Don King.

What is Bunny doing there? On what is she focusing so intently?
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby BRC » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 pm

DevilDan wrote:As for JIllian's symbolic use: it hardly seems that if Don King has trouble getting people to agree that Stanley's dangerous at this point that one or three more cities that he's conquered won't make a difference. Wars in Erf don't require heartwarming or touching stories to sell them: all it takes is to convince a side's ruler.

It's not so much "Stanley is Dangerous" as it is "Stanley is evil". And using Jillian's story would be to convince the other rulers, especially royals.
The Tool is probably pretty public about his quest for the Arkentools, so many sides probably think "I don't have an arkentool, so I shouldn't be worried". The RCC was able to attract some of them with Ansom's charisma. If Don wants to win even more over to the new Coalition, he needs somebody like Ansom to be a figurehead. Unfortunately, he doesn't have anybody with Ansom's raw charisma and coalition-building talent, and while Stanley has attacked many sides, it's unknown if he actually wiped out any besides FAQ. By parading Jillian around, having her tell a sob story about what the evil Stanley did to her kingdom, it may be enough to convince the other Royals. To incite some of that Ansomesque Royalty Pride. What's more, as far as we know FAQ didn't have much worth plundering. Didn't have an Arkentool, and hadn't attacked GK. Stanley didn't occupy the cities afterwards, so if spun right, the other side may react like this: "That Fiend, it's bad enough that he killed king Saline, we think, but to wipe out a royal-ruled kingdom out of spite. We must band together and put him down like the rabid dog he is!".
Of course, if this dosn't work, Don just sends her to the frontlines.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby moose o death » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:30 pm

SteveMB wrote:
moose o death wrote:which is all well and good but why does she need to take tea? she's a royal no matter what. if she walks into faq it's hers. she can still do all those things and if anything those cities could give her money and units so she can take down stanley.

It depends on exactly what objection (other than the obvious one that Stanley had attacked Transylvito) Don King has to Stanley. Is it because Stanley is not royal, or is it because he's an uncouth lout with no respect for order and tradition? If it's the latter, then Jillian (as she currently is) would be every bit as objectionable.

but stanley isn't an uncoath lout. he agreed with ansom on objecting to parsons method of ansoms execution. which i have to admit is a rather unique situation most people wouldn't ever get to comment on (commenting on the method of your own execution i mean)

stanley agreed that parson should not have used a false submission to surrender as a means of putting ansom in a position to be croaked by a veiled unit. and even went as far as to say he'd teach parson about that stuff. sounds to me like stanley is actually more "royal" than jillian.

i'd be more willing to believe don king doesn't want an unpredictable ally. jillian doesn't wish to observe the rules to which she was supposedly bound.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:28 pm

moose o death wrote:stanley agreed that parson should not have used a false submission to surrender as a means of putting ansom in a position to be croaked by a veiled unit. and even went as far as to say he'd teach parson about that stuff. sounds to me like stanley is actually more "royal" than jillian.


Stanley strikes me more as nouveau riche... well, more likely nouveau royale. He is just recently being let into the country club, so all the 'proper' mannerisms are new to him, and of heightened importance. He wants to be seen as royal, so he attempts to assume the trappings of royalty and nobility, even though he doesn't really understand them.

Vinny, on the other hand, is so comfortable with his royal status that he feels free to drop it most of the time, only assuming it when it's important, and it seems to me that Don King understands royalty completely, including how best to dispense with the pretenses in order to make his point.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:29 pm

BRC, I'm just not convinced that other royals need any more reasons to fear Stanley. He's got two arkentools, dwagons, survived a force that should have curb-stomped him into individual Erfling molecules by using an unheard of multi-hex TPK, wiped out the milquetoasts, attacked multiple other kingdoms....

From the point of plot, it's also a pretty boring thing to do with a dynamic a character as Jill.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby BRC » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:50 pm

DevilDan wrote:BRC, I'm just not convinced that other royals need any more reasons to fear Stanley. He's got two arkentools, dwagons, survived a force that should have curb-stomped him into individual Erfling molecules by using an unheard of multi-hex TPK, wiped out the milquetoasts, attacked multiple other kingdoms....

From the point of plot, it's also a pretty boring thing to do with a dynamic a character as Jill.

One again. Not Fear him, Hate him. They already fear him, but fear won't make them attack him. Hatred will.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:17 am

BRC wrote:One again. Not Fear him, Hate him. They already fear him, but fear won't make them attack him. Hatred will.


If most royals follow Ansom's pattern of being driven by passion, reactionary traditionalism, and blind chauvinism (mixed with noblesse oblige), caring more for "honor" than for what is best for their kingdoms, then maybe it'd be a good thing for Stanley to take them out.

Don King seems to have a healthily pragmatic approach to he situation.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby vdragan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:58 am

DevilDan wrote:Don King seems to have a healthily pragmatic approach to he situation.

Hear hear. That's why I like him. It's like the classic case of the 'hero' storming into the lair of the 'villain', only to be confronted with someone who has thought out their course of action based on logic that isn't immediately reprehensible: the watchmen-ozymandias case, if you will.

Hero versus villain doesn't make for good storytelling. People versus other people, and the moral grey area which that kind of conflict entails, does. Stanley is at least partially right when he says that there is no Good and Evil. The next bit about there being Holy and Unholy..well.. I dunno. That's like a five cask talk right there. My own distaste at the notion is very informed by personal beliefs which are based on a world where 'tools of the titans' don't exist. Still though, I like Wanda's Fate, and Luck, and Numbers better.

Don King likes Royalty as something that organizes the death and destruction of Erfworld, and hopefully minimizes it through diplomacy. He's not a revolutionary, but that doesn't make him a bad guy. On the contrary, he seems very much the older wiser mentor figure. When he's not hurling glasses across the room that is. :D
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:16 am

vdragan wrote:Don King likes Royalty as something that organizes the death and destruction of Erfworld, and hopefully minimizes it through diplomacy. He's not a revolutionary, but that doesn't make him a bad guy. On the contrary, he seems very much the older wiser mentor figure. When he's not hurling glasses across the room that is. :D


He certainly doesn't think that the elites are without fault:

Jillian understood him at last. "Royals are wolves."

Don King smiled weakly. "In many ways."
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby moose o death » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:08 am

out of context perhaps. when i read it it seemed more like disappointment that she's as thick as any other meathead warlord. and just didn't feel like explaining it better at that second.so he went with another method of explanation. he acted like a slob. which as far as i would be concerned, is just being offensive.

i'm looking forward to tv becoming barbarians.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:05 am

moose o death wrote:out of context perhaps. when i read it it seemed more like disappointment that she's as thick as any other meathead warlord. and just didn't feel like explaining it better at that second.


It seems funny that he should find the comparison between nobles and wolves objectionable when he originally made it. Don King knows that the current system—and the current rulers—aren't perfect, but he believes that there is a reason behind it and that its benefits outweigh its costs.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby vdragan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:33 pm

DevilDan wrote:
moose o death wrote:out of context perhaps. when i read it it seemed more like disappointment that she's as thick as any other meathead warlord. and just didn't feel like explaining it better at that second.


It seems funny that he should find the comparison between nobles and wolves objectionable when he originally made it. Don King knows that the current system—and the current rulers—aren't perfect, but he believes that there is a reason behind it and that its benefits outweigh its costs.


or all of the above. it's unclear (fun times, as always). what does seem clear that don king isn't using only one approach to get through to jillian. he's playing both good cop and bad cop.
heh.. you might say he's double-casted.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby SMD » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:57 pm

I'm surprised I had to sign up to make this comment- someone usually beats me to even the most subtle things going on.

R E S P E C T

Jillian's disdain of royal things, rituals and subtleties is hardly surprising. She was not valued for what she was when she was when she was heir, and Ansom and the others wouldn't take her seriously until they found out she was a royal like them.

Don said it in the previous update- Jillian has lost her perspective. Instead of accepting Don King's rather impressive welcome as a show of respect for her(Which Don didn't need to do- she's their prisoner, and as pointed out, she has nowhere to go even if she was free), she didn't see the point of it all. Don showed her that he was quite capable of being otherwise if she so preferred it...and it surprised her.

As pointed out previously, I hope Jillian learns the uses of subtly and how it can be used as a weapon. As she is, she is incomplete.

As to the outrage about wolves and mice...had Stanley been called a rat with a rocket launcher, would anyone disagree?
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby moose o death » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:50 pm

SMD wrote:As to the outrage about wolves and mice...had Stanley been called a rat with a rocket launcher, would anyone disagree?


yes, rat implies stanley is dishonest. so far he seems like the most honest leader in erfworld. the analogy isn't the problem, it's the meaning behind it.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby SMD » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:46 pm

How are rats dishonest? I'm not using the mob term. Stanley is small, clever, vicious, self-serving to a fault and cowardly. And he has a rocket launcher. Just because he has power doesn't change his essential nature.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:47 pm

Jill can handle herself if needed: Witness her earlier interactions with Don King. All in all, her gifts are martial and it would be a shame to have her turn from her sword to other pursuits.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby moose o death » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:25 am

SMD wrote:How are rats dishonest? I'm not using the mob term. Stanley is small, clever, vicious, self-serving to a fault and cowardly. And he has a rocket launcher. Just because he has power doesn't change his essential nature.

especially in the context of don king saying it. it's couldn't be considered anything BUT dishonest.
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby vdragan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:33 am

moose o death wrote:
SMD wrote:How are rats dishonest? I'm not using the mob term. Stanley is small, clever, vicious, self-serving to a fault and cowardly. And he has a rocket launcher. Just because he has power doesn't change his essential nature.

especially in the context of don king saying it. it's couldn't be considered anything BUT dishonest.


Stanley's been called a rat by Vinny before, and I'm pretty sure no one complained. That was because he was running away from GK after he lost the donut of death battle, taking with him all of its dwagons. Does that sound to you like the commitment of a ruler to their side or like he was trying to save his own skin. Parson and Stanley haven't interacted in a while. Perhaps we have forgotten how Parson (and Wanda) have had to drag Fearless Leader kicking and screaming towards actions which are for his own long-term good. Contrast Vinny explaining the situation at the choke point to Don King.

Stanley is a rat. Should he get extra credit just for being a non-Royal in a world of Royals? Would a Royal Stanley still have any sympathy from you all?
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Re: Summer Update - 020

Postby DevilDan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:27 pm

By Erf standards, it seems that Stanley is more honorable than say Parson, who used subterfuge—a fake surrender would be considered pretty low even on earth in some situations—and the trimancers to pull off what might be termed a pretty dirty trick, the equivalent of carpet bombing or even nuking his own city and troops. He has more respect for the its traditions and for its religion. Just a thought.
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