Book 2 - Page 76

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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:14 am

I actually suspect the GK units in the Garrison will be totally fine, Slately only cares about the Decrypted Archons. I expect that he has already accepted he is losing the city, he just hopes to get enough schmuckers to make Trem the heir before he croaks, so Jetstone can continue to rule from their other/original capital site.

Or if you meant how long until GK TAKES the Garrison....not sure. One hypothesis was that once the Tower fell, they would automatically take the Garrison because they held the other 2 zones....and (I have to check my city-taking rules on this) it appears that the city is still in contest....so I'm not sure what's happening there.....

This could mean Cubbins is still alive in the ruined tower!!!!!! *holds on to my undying belief Cubbins is "too cute to croak"*
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby DeathTheKid » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:39 am

Generally, city taking happens on your turn. The normal rules may not apply here.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:48 am

0beron wrote:This could mean Cubbins is still alive in the ruined tower!!!!!! *holds on to my undying belief Cubbins is "too cute to croak"*


Well, all he needs to do is roll over and hope some rock will provide a perch for the huge structure falling down on top of him.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:52 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
0beron wrote:This could mean Cubbins is still alive in the ruined tower!!!!!! *holds on to my undying belief Cubbins is "too cute to croak"*


Well, all he needs to do is roll over and hope some rock will provide a perch for the huge structure falling down on top of him.

Nah, he was at the top of the tower when it fell, so there would be minimal (if any) rubble falling on top of him. In which case it presumably functions like any other fall, where there is a random chance of croaking, being incapacitated, or being ok.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:02 pm

Ah. Oh. You didn't see it then. Ok I'll wait some more before making suggestions on damage avoidance tactics in cases of structural collapse. True, my source involves crescent shaped structures, but should apply to towers as well.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:14 pm

Darnit now you have me paranoid I missed something, or am forgetting something really obvious.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:22 pm

Presumable movie spoiler/hint below:
Spoiler: show
OOOOOOOH, Promethius reference? Yeah didn't see it, horror ain't my thing haha.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby atalex » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:24 pm

Considering the fact that no other decrypted turned, we actually can very easely presume thats its mostly loyalty to his old side and utter disgust for his new side that made him turned since its the only thing he had that was different from the others decrypted warlords. So yeah, mostly force of will. That being said, what made him go over the edge might have been Wanda leaving the battle.


I'm going to laugh my ass off if a big factor in Oss turning was that bit of psy-ops Trem used against him during their last conversation (Book 2, page 47), given how stridently some forumites argued that Trem was a complete moron for how he handled that parley.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:26 pm

atalex wrote:I'm going to laugh my ass off if a big factor in Oss turning was that bit of psy-ops Trem used against him during their last conversation (Book 2, page 47), given how stridently some forumites argued that Trem was a complete moron for how he handled that parley.

WHY DON'T FORUMS HAVE *LIKE* BUTTONS!?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Couldn't the Tool or Wanda disband any captured Archons?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:35 pm

Possibly. There may be a mechanic the prevents this (ie. units can no longer be disbanded while captured). However, more importantly is the fact that we have NEVER seen a ruler disband a unit PERIOD, never mind while captured. Some have put up the theory that it's not actually possible, and rulers simply use it as a threat. (Because a ruler could still presumably take a sword and croak the unit anyway)
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:37 pm

0beron wrote:
atalex wrote:I'm going to laugh my ass off if a big factor in Oss turning was that bit of psy-ops Trem used against him during their last conversation (Book 2, page 47), given how stridently some forumites argued that Trem was a complete moron for how he handled that parley.

WHY DON'T FORUMS HAVE *LIKE* BUTTONS!?


Because then I wouldn't have visible posts at all.

Btw, I forgot what my stance on that negociation event was. It probably was, "Trem was stupid and I hate him". Because I hate Trem. So yeah, let's revive that particular storm in a teacup. I think Trem acted not as a diplomatic negociator in that event. Whatever side effects some people want to pin on his dialogue were not the result of a deliberate, informed choice on Trem's part (he didn't know how Oss would react, he wasn't exactly after turning Oss but after brokering peace with GK, and Oss' turning occured after Wanda left, anyway) and one cannot ascribe to competence that which is blundered into.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby Raza » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:39 pm

Coo', we'll get to see the alien blaster in action.

Ossomer's right though, they're on the clock. Disorganized archons aside, they're in the airspace now. The moment GK's ground troops croak the last Jetstoner in the garrison/dungeons - which they've got pretty thoroughly dominated - they'll own the city, and anyone left in the airspace should be auto-captured, or at least all those dwagons will be able to take off with ground leadership and engage.

0beron wrote:
fjolnir wrote:It's the penultimate comic before the hiatus (comic 73), Wanda leaves Spacerock for the MK with Jack, Oss turns because he (presumably) loses some Loyalty bonuses without her present, and it comes after almost every other text update has Oss ruminating on how much his new side sucks.

Not to nit-pick, but we actually have NO idea why/how he turned back to Jetstone. It is speculated that this was because of a lost Leadership bonus, or an interruption of the 'Plier's magic due to Wanda being in the MK, or it could be his own force of will, or even another possibility we haven't considered yet. We're flying completely blind on that issue, so we can't even presume anything.

One moment he said he 'couldn't' turn, implying he did want to; the next, Wanda leaves the city with the pliers and he does. It's pretty clear that his loyalty was low and some binding magic from Wanda and/the pliers was only keeping him from turning while she was in the city. This isn't science, it's fiction; our clues don't get much more transparent than this without becoming outright exposition.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:45 pm

He didn't seem to be doing much of anything direct actually. He wasn't (obviously at least) trying to turn Ossomer, nor was he brokering for peace even. People who dislike him would say he was just babbling and wasting time like all Royals, but people who think he's more clever than he appears (like myself) will see he was actually gathering intell and learning about GK/Parson. He may have hoped to have an effect on Osomer's loyalty in the process.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby Archameades » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:17 pm

Notice that Slately refers to Ossomer as Prince and Son.. But Ossomer addresses him far more formally as Highness and Sire? He had no trouble addressing Tramennis as brother when he was talking to him on the tower.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby Vorteks » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:26 pm

That... that was awesome.

How I've missed Erfworld comics! Thanks Rob and Xin!
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby DevilDan » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:41 pm

I don't think that Ossomer's suggestion that "No, it... it isn't possible" for him to turn has any special meaning, just a depersonalized (removing his own agency) resistance to turning. I honestly don't think that Wanda's removal of the pliers from the city has a bit to do with a decrypted unit's loyalty. On the other hand, one could frame it as there being a loyalty bonus when the pliers (or any arkentool?) are present?

The crux of Ossomer's turning is his own shame, both at betraying Jetstone and at the "ignoble" actions of GK. And he probably also felt useless and unwanted up on that carpet.

Raza wrote:Ossomer's right though, they're on the clock. Disorganized archons aside, they're in the airspace now. The moment GK's ground troops croak the last Jetstoner in the garrison/dungeons - which they've got pretty thoroughly dominated - they'll own the city, and anyone left in the airspace should be auto-captured, or at least all those dwagons will be able to take off with ground leadership and engage.


Taking the city doesn't mean that Jetstone units are captured, otherwise how could any units even invade another city? (Or did I misunderstand the first part of your statement?)

Archameades wrote:Notice that Slately refers to Ossomer as Prince and Son.. But Ossomer addresses him far more formally as Highness and Sire? He had no trouble addressing Tramennis as brother when he was talking to him on the tower.


That's assuming the stiff Ossomer didn't always use those titles for his superior. Plus, he still feels guilty for failing and for being turned—on top of lingering guilt for GK's tactics. As the king noted, Ossomer has some atoning to do.

I agree with the fairy king: Tramennis was gathering intel in his negotiations, and valuable intel at that, a perfectly reasonable action given how he was in no rush to attack. Only Charlie, perhaps, who properly understands how dangerous Parson is, would be so paranoid as to suggest that giving GK even the slight reprieve of a parley could prove so costly considering how GK's boops were in the proverbial vise.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby Ditto » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:22 pm

A ruler cannot disband a captured unit freely. That unit is under the purview of the capturing side - they eat from their captor's rations, are moved according to the move of the captors, etc. They are only units of their original side (not taking orders from their captors, etc.) because of Loyalty, their last line of defense.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby splintermute » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:34 pm

DevilDan wrote:
Raza wrote:Ossomer's right though, they're on the clock. Disorganized archons aside, they're in the airspace now. The moment GK's ground troops croak the last Jetstoner in the garrison/dungeons - which they've got pretty thoroughly dominated - they'll own the city, and anyone left in the airspace should be auto-captured, or at least all those dwagons will be able to take off with ground leadership and engage.


Taking the city doesn't mean that Jetstone units are captured, otherwise how could any units even invade another city? (Or did I misunderstand the first part of your statement?)


I think taking a city does auto-capture enemy units remaining within it - we've had several examples so far: Caesar's capture of Chocula, Wrigley's initial capture by GK, and Queen Bea's destruction of all her units to prevent their capture.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 76

Postby Biostar » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:43 pm

0beron wrote:Possibly. There may be a mechanic the prevents this (ie. units can no longer be disbanded while captured). However, more importantly is the fact that we have NEVER seen a ruler disband a unit PERIOD, never mind while captured. Some have put up the theory that it's not actually possible, and rulers simply use it as a threat. (Because a ruler could still presumably take a sword and croak the unit anyway)

That seems like too big of a secret to be kept between rulers of different sides. If it was just simply croaking them, I think they would just call it that. And it wouldn't have more threat than croaking them, since they "die" either way.

DevilDan wrote: The crux of Ossomer's turning is his own shame, both at betraying Jetstone and at the "ignoble" actions of GK. And he probably also felt useless and unwanted up on that carpet.

Makes me wonder why Ansom stayed so loyal as long as he has.
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