Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:23 pm

Saladman wrote:perhaps that's how they capture Wanda.

The more I think about it, the less likely this seems. Given how powerful Wanda has helped Haffaton become, they would search desperately for the side that takes her. Which means if they capture Wanda in a raid, that same raid would have to destroy Haffaton....and given Haffaton's strength, I really doubt even FAQ's full force could launch a decapitation attack at the capital.
No, I think Wanda is going to be the poison pill her Father made her into and either destroy Haffaton herself, or purposefully let them become overextended so they collapse when attacked simultaneously from multiple fronts. Then FAQ picks her up as a Barbarian again, because Marie has been watching her. Heck, once Haffaton is destroyed she will likely go to FAQ willingly, given the chance to live peacefully after avenging her Side (even if unbeknownst to her, Signamancy, Luckamancy, and Fate have conspired to make her a poison pill even when she doesn't want to be)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:46 pm

Infidel wrote:If signamancy is form equals function. Then a signamancer might just be able to change the form, and therefore the function of a unit or item. Temporarily turn a light unit into a heavy. Or maybe use all juice to turn an enemy unit into a sheep.


We already know that style of casting (adding/subtracting specials) is Weirdomancy.

Think about it in a more physical sense. Signamancer plants sign that says, "Stay off the grass," "No hippies need apply."... or in Erfworld terms, "No infantry permitted here," "Only heavies allowed to attack." Their signs can create restrictions and permissions contrary to normal rules. A good general can use such restrictions to gain tactical and strategic advantage.

mortissimus wrote:If FAQ was to evacuate preemptively, why take all casters in the first place?


Depends on whether you are completely abandoning the idea of staying. If you are not, then yes, leave some behind. If you are completely abandoning, then don't.

0beron wrote:Because that would be a big risk, for several reasons:


Overstating "big" there by a lot.

To be guaranteed of taking the enemy capital, they're going to need every resource they can bring to bear.


There's a big assumption there. You're assuming the enemy has significant defenses. In the rock-paper-scissors world of combat having the correct offense can minimize defenses, and bringing extra resources that are vulnerable to the defenses creates loss where there would otherwise be none.

Leaving ANY infantry behind, and 3 of their casters (all of whom have proven or speculative combat applications that are very powerful) will jeopardize that chance, and nothing would be worse than evacuating, losing, and being stranded in hostile territory.


Case in point, Goodminton. Bringing infantry to an air fight is a waste.

Because they lack a Thinkamancer, the city might fall without warning. The evacuees would suddenly lose that treasury, and have nothing to create a new city with or pay upkeep.


The assumption is that the attackers take as much of the treasury as possible, the moneymancer converts to gems that can be carried into the MK, and so the treasury leaves with the casters.

Sacking a city yields a huge amount of schmuckers. They may NEED to sack their own cities as they leave and get those schmuckers for the plan to work.


We don't know that it is "huge". And if the treasury is already too large to carry, extra is wasted.

Whoever finds them would realize that they didn't find the Ruler, and would thus know the side still exists,


So what? Going to bust your plan in order to hunt down a newly created Side? If they flee, that means fewer losses now for the attackers. For Haffaton and its generally peaceable methods, this is a bonus. And they left cover the moment they left FAQ. Banhammer is not going to find another bubble side location, so he's out in the real world.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:02 pm

Kreistor wrote:
To be guaranteed of taking the enemy capital, they're going to need every resource they can bring to bear.

There's a big assumption there. You're assuming the enemy has significant defenses. In the rock-paper-scissors world of combat having the correct offense can minimize defenses, and bringing extra resources that are vulnerable to the defenses creates loss where there would otherwise be none.
Leaving ANY infantry behind, and 3 of their casters (all of whom have proven or speculative combat applications that are very powerful) will jeopardize that chance, and nothing would be worse than evacuating, losing, and being stranded in hostile territory.

Case in point, Goodminton. Bringing infantry to an air fight is a waste.

That was only the case because Goodminton attacked preemptively, defying expectations to gain the advantage of surprise. Frenemy and Quisling were hanging around in the airspace like idiots, FAQ would be deploying it's units where they are best suited. In an all-out city-attack, the offense would ideally be attacking both the walls AND airspace at once, if they can afford to do so. Also I said "to be guaranteed". FAQ could risk a smaller force, but given how much they're betting their survival on a move like that, I'd be wiser to pull out all the stops and give yourself the highest chance of victory possible.

Kreistor wrote:
Because they lack a Thinkamancer, the city might fall without warning. The evacuees would suddenly lose that treasury, and have nothing to create a new city with or pay upkeep.

The assumption is that the attackers take as much of the treasury as possible, the moneymancer converts to gems that can be carried into the MK, and so the treasury leaves with the casters.

No, the post I was responding to was saying it'd be an advantage to keep everything in the treasury rather than carry gems/purses, so I was pointing out a possible weakness in that.

Kreistor wrote:
Sacking a city yields a huge amount of schmuckers. They may NEED to sack their own cities as they leave and get those schmuckers for the plan to work.

We don't know that it is "huge". And if the treasury is already too large to carry, extra is wasted.

Jillian sacked Kona, a level 3 city, for 20,000. I'd call that pretty substantial. And as pointed out by an earlier poster, they have a Moneymancer so extra could be made into gems and then converted to schmuckers after a dozen turns.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby ftl » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:16 pm

"In battle once, Jillian had taken an arrow right in the navel. "

By the way, has this comic already had an "arrow to the knee" joke that I don't remember? Because if not, one of these days we will come across a Warlord that has been relegated to guard duty after a wound incurred in archery combat.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby Oberon » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:28 pm

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:Also when you can bring 8 casters to bear on a target.

Yeaaaaaah, cus a Lookamancer, Moneymancer, and Signamancer will be so useful in combat....LOL
Let us not forget the largest advantage of bringing 8 casters to a fight: Two trimancer links of awesome overpowered breakage.
A moneymancer in a trimancer link might be able to use shmuckers instead of juice to keep the awesome flowing longer.


I'd vastly prefer that the story lines were not intermixed. Finish one, then begin the other again.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:34 pm

Oberon wrote:Let us not forget the largest advantage of bringing 8 casters to a fight: Two trimancer links of awesome overpowered breakage.
A moneymancer in a trimancer link might be able to use shmuckers instead of juice to keep the awesome flowing longer.

That requires that 2 of the 8 are thinkamancers. Faq doesn't have any.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby vintermann » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:50 am

We know a good deal about signamancy in Erfworld: we know that looks matter. It's a bit more serious than warpaint making you look more fearsome.

I expect a signamancer would be able to read much of the metainformation that is accessible to us, e.g. he could infer that sides with names like "Quisling" and "Frenemy" wouldn't be trustworthy allies, that Transylvito with all their casino and mob allusions will have a moneymancer, etc.

But by itself, that wouldn't be very powerful. Rather, I think they can take a proactive stance. If you want a moneymancer, for instance, a signamancer could expend juice to change the appearance (= signamancy) of your city to make it more likely. You might find it started to look suspiciously like an international banking headquarter, and what do you know, that warlord you were popping turned out to be a caster named Croesus Stiglitz or something.

It's very likely that Brother Labeler is essential to the side: by making it look like an elevated ivory tower bubble side, he's pulling the strings of fate to make it be an elevated ivory tower bubble side.

These are two sides of the same coin on Erfworld. Units can't just change their appearance to change their nature except in very limited ways, with makeup, warpaint etc, ("natural signamancy"). Nor can they prevent their true nature from being apparent. And when it comes to changing the look of an entire side, there's probably no equivalent of warpaint or makeup.

It could explain why they have so many casters, and the three-caster combo necessary for their existence. The comment about all sides with a signamancer looking neat and orderly is probably because one thing all sides want, regardless of niche, is efficiency.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby Oberon » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:03 am

MarbitChow wrote:That requires that 2 of the 8 are thinkamancers. Faq doesn't have any.
Crap, I completely neglected to look at the FAQ casters before posting that. The disjointed postings of various story arcs are making it difficult to stay current.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby Whispri » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:19 pm

0beron wrote:
Saladman wrote:perhaps that's how they capture Wanda.

The more I think about it, the less likely this seems. Given how powerful Wanda has helped Haffaton become, they would search desperately for the side that takes her. Which means if they capture Wanda in a raid, that same raid would have to destroy Haffaton....and given Haffaton's strength, I really doubt even FAQ's full force could launch a decapitation attack at the capital.
No, I think Wanda is going to be the poison pill her Father made her into and either destroy Haffaton herself, or purposefully let them become overextended so they collapse when attacked simultaneously from multiple fronts. Then FAQ picks her up as a Barbarian again, because Marie has been watching her. Heck, once Haffaton is destroyed she will likely go to FAQ willingly, given the chance to live peacefully after avenging her Side (even if unbeknownst to her, Signamancy, Luckamancy, and Fate have conspired to make her a poison pill even when she doesn't want to be)

If Wanda's planning to posion Haffaton she's taking her own sweet time over it. I do so wish that so much of Wanda's story hadn't been skipped, it's not just that I'd've really enjoyed reading it, it's that her current frame of mind is so important when it comes to what happens next. Was she forced into Haffaton's service, or talked into joining? Does she still want to hurt Olive for murdering Tommy... or does she regard Olive as the Fate that released her from life's suffering?

I think it's a mistake to assume that Haffaton finished Goodminton. They may have done so, but they aren't the only suspects, there were five enemy Sides in the Battlespace and of course, Faq's Predictamancer got a good look at Wanda quite a while before the final Battle of Goodminton. Plenty of time for them to organize a bit of Fate fighting wouldn't you say? Wanda is after all, destined to destroy them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 032

Postby 0beron » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:00 pm

I definitely agree, and part of me wonders if Rob is actually going to back-track at least a bit.
While Haffaton may not have been the ones to destroy Goodminton, they're definitely the ones who scored Wanda in the long run. Unless Rob specifically back-tracks far enough to show us who Wanda heard coming down the road, I think we can safely assume it was Haffaton. While it's very like Rob to throw a THIRD side into her backstory, if he doesn't tell us that then the rhetoric implies it was Haffaton to picked her up.
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