Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

[0beron]

I found no problems with Nihilia's side (he was easy to check cus he showed the math) and a cursory skim of Colonel showed no problems either.

On a semi-related note, I die a little inside every time I see Kaed log on without posting anything :p

[Nihila]

The Colonel, you took an extra 2 points for all units as your side bonus, correct? If so, all of your basic units (Stabber Archer Piker Scout) are good, I haven't gotten around to checking the rest.

0beron, your C-unit seems like it's spent 22 points (all on specials), but I might be wrong on that. I'm presuming that Flight, Ranged, Healer, and Speed Boost are all 2 points, Dance-Fighting and Leadership 4 each, and Simple Rhyme-o-mancy 6 points.

[0beron]

0beron, your C-unit seems like it's spent 22 points (all on specials), but I might be wrong on that. I'm presuming that Flight, Ranged, Healer, and Speed Boost are all 2 points, Dance-Fighting and Leadership 4 each, and Simple Rhyme-o-mancy 6 points.

Rhymomancers get dance-fighting for free.

[Exate]

0beron, your C-unit seems like it's spent 22 points (all on specials), but I might be wrong on that. I'm presuming that Flight, Ranged, Healer, and Speed Boost are all 2 points, Dance-Fighting and Leadership 4 each, and Simple Rhyme-o-mancy 6 points.

Rhymomancers get dance-fighting for free.

Even if that's so, and I don't think it's in the official rules that we're using although I may have missed a reference somewhere, having Simple Rhymomancy does not make a unit a Rhymomancer. Only a true caster would qualify.

[0beron]

Well Kaed didn't shoot it down when I pointed it out in an earlier post, it comes from the Spell Compendium that goes with the rules we're using, backed up by the example of Wanda. Casters are not dance-fighters by default, but she was able to lead uncroaked in one because she casts from Rhymomancy too. (and lets be honest, Rhyme-o-mancy of any level would be underpowered if they weren't automatically dance-fighters). As for whether a simple-caster would get that, the special Simple-Mancy however states that the unit casts spells as a level 1 caster, so they are the same thing in that regard.
I'll await a final call from Kaed...and if it's an issue it's seriously gonna screw up my side composition so I'll need to do a big rework.

[Exate]

Casters are not dance-fighters by default, but she was able to lead uncroaked in one because she casts from Rhymomancy too.

No, she was able to lead her uncroaked in dance-fighting because uncroaked units led by a master-class croakamancer can dance-fight, which was made clear in the comic pages at the time of that event. Her other capabilities don't enter into it.

(and lets be honest, Rhyme-o-mancy of any level would be underpowered if they weren't automatically dance-fighters).

This is a ridiculous assertion given that we know very little of what the discipline can do, aside from being usable by casters of any discipline to empower their spellcasting if used properly. For all we know it has extremely potent spellcasting capabilities.

As for whether a simple-caster would get that, the special Simple-Mancy however states that the unit casts spells as a level 1 caster, so they are the same thing in that regard.

The phrase "casts spells as a level 1 caster" at no point either states or implies the possession of any caster abilities other than using spells. Units with simple mancies do not function as commanders, they do not grant a leadership bonus to units affiliated with their discipline, they cannot enter the magic kingdom, and so forth; they get the casting ability and the casting ability only.

In any case, none of that actually says "your units don't have dance-fighting for free", but I'm reasonably certain that none of the points you made logically support the idea that they do.

[0beron]

she was able to lead her uncroaked in dance-fighting because uncroaked units led by a master-class croakamancer can dance-fight, which was made clear in the comic pages at the time of that event. Her other capabilities don't enter into it.

No, the comic made it clear uncroaked normally cannot dance-fight PERIOD. Being led by a master-class croakamancer makes them CAPABLE of dance-fighting, but does nothing to affect the croakamancer's own abilities. This means the leading croakamancer would still need to be a dance-fighter in order to lead them.

(and lets be honest, Rhyme-o-mancy of any level would be underpowered if they weren't automatically dance-fighters).

This is a ridiculous assertion given that we know very little of what the discipline can do, aside from being usable by casters of any discipline to empower their spellcasting if used properly. For all we know it has extremely potent spellcasting capabilities.

While you may be correct, we can only work off what we DO know, so given the limited scope of Rhymomancy's demonstrated powers, they would be underpowered compared to other casters in the game.
Edit: Just to give you an idea of what Rhymomancy would actually do on those units, this is what Kaed has said I can do with them. For 2 rounds per day, their Dance-fighting bonus increases by 2. That's it.

The phrase "casts spells as a level 1 caster" at no point either states or implies the possession of any abilities other than casting spells. Units with simple mancies do not function as commanders, they do not grant a leadership bonus to units affiliated with their discipline, they cannot enter the magic kingdom, and so forth; they get the casting ability and the casting ability only.

Forgive me, I paraphrased. The exact language is "Grants the unit the ability to cast from a discipline as a level 1 caster". That is a pretty open statement. Your other arguments are totally baseless because nothing says they can't do any of that stuff (though they would of course need the leadership special to lead units from their discipline)

So, like I said, I'll await Kaed's ruling on it.

[The Colonel]

The Colonel, you took an extra 2 points for all units as your side bonus, correct? If so, all of your basic units (Stabber Archer Piker Scout) are good, I haven't gotten around to checking the rest.

0beron, your C-unit seems like it's spent 22 points (all on specials), but I might be wrong on that. I'm presuming that Flight, Ranged, Healer, and Speed Boost are all 2 points, Dance-Fighting and Leadership 4 each, and Simple Rhyme-o-mancy 6 points.

Yes I took 2 extra points

[Kaed]

Oberon, please chill. I just started some new work and was getting everything set up from 8 to 3 including a ridiculous hour bus commute each way. Tomorrow I will start training and be back sometime in the afternoon. If I'm not too exhausted to prep again I'll do my best. I'm sorry it's taking a bit but things will pick up by the weekend at the latest, I don't work then.

I'm going to say that rhyme-o-mancy provides free dance fighting as long as you have juice. Once you're tapped, the music stops. Think I will upgrade the bonus to +3 to create a kind of surge mechanic. You can do it for one round without penalty but the second will burn out your groove. Use it wisely.

Going to nap now, I gotta be up at 6am just to catch the bus on time x_x

[0beron]

Oh it's fine, sorry if my comment seemed whiney, it was supposed to be humorous. Having run one of these before, I totally understand the work involved so I didn't mean to seem nagging.

Fair ruling on the dance-fighting.

[Nihila]

Okay, my fuller analysis of Erf-Command:

Unit names in bold have spent too many points, unit names in italics have some points remaining.

Knight: 2 points spent on Hits, 6 on each Attack and Defense. Ranged, however, costs 3 points for a Knight so that puts you at 17 points, 1 above the Knight's limit.

A-special: -2 points spent on Hits, 1 on each Attack and Defense. 11 points spent on Specials (2 simple, 1 3-point, 1 4-point), so that puts you at 11 out of 14 points.

B-special: 3 points spent on each Attack and Defense, 2 points spent on Move. 4 points spent on Specials (2 simple), so that puts you at 12 out of 14 points. Also, since you put 2 points into Move, it might be more efficient to buy Speed Boost.

C-special: 4 points spent on Attack, 5 on Defense, 3 on Move. 6 points spent on Specials (3 simple), so that puts you at 18 out of 20 points. Also, since you put 3 points into Move, it might be more efficient to buy Speed Boost.

D-special: 7 points into Attack, 5 into Defense, 5 into Move. 14 points spent on Specials (3 simple, 1 6-point), which leaves us at 31 points out of 28. If we presume that you just bought Speed Boost instead, that brings your move up to 9 and makes this analysis look like:
D-special w/Speed Boost: 7 into Attack, 5 into Defense. 16 spent on Specials (3 simple, 1 6-point, Speed Boost), for a total of 28 points out of 28.

A-ship: -1 point into Attack, 1 point into Defense, 6 points into Move. Total: 6 points out of 7 spent.

B-ship: 5 into Attack, 4 into Defense, 3 into Move. 2 in Specials. Total: 14 points out of 12 spent.

C-ship: 2 into Hits, 7 into each Attack and Defense, 1 into Move, 2 into Cargo. 2 in Specials. Total: 21 points out of 22 spent.

[The Colonel]

Infantry
Stabber Class
Rookie
The wave of raw recruits that make up any army
HP 6, Attack 6, defense 2, Move 7,

Piker Class
Garrison Troops
Much more specialize soldiers, given better armour to protect the garrison. They rarely venture forth from there.
HP 7, Attack 4, Defense 6, Move 6,

Archer Class
Marksman
Highly trained and lightly armored marksmen.
HP 5, Attack 8, Defense 2, Move 6, Special - Archery

Scout Class
Steam Scout
Well trained light infantry, wearing a steam powered backpack that allows them the ability of flight. It makes them incapable of carrying much in terms of weapons or armour.
HP 6, Attack 1, Defense 1, Move 9, Special - Fly, Special - scout range 6

Knight Class
Super-soldier
highly trained and highly augmented soldiers.
13 HP, Attack 9, Defense 8, Speed 5, specials - Rider, Ranged

Special
Special A
Commissioned-Officer
We do everything.
HP 5, Attack 4, Defense 4, Move 6, Special - Builder, fabrication, Surveyor, Leadership

Special B
Airborne-Trooper
Using recently uncovered ancient technology, distributed to experienced soldiers.
HP 8, Attack 6, Defense 6, Move 6(12), Special - Flight, Ranged, Speed Boost

Special C
Displacer
Small and well balanced though not carrying much in terms of equipment
HP 13, Attack 7, Defense 7, Move 5(11), Special- Ranged, Siege, Mount, Speed Boost, Fly

Special D
Heavy Weapons Platform
The ultimate weapon, fast, powerful, large and carrying enough firepower to smash small cities
HP 16, Attack 11(19), Defense 9, Speed 3(9), Special- Ranged, Siege, Lightning, Mount, Speed Boost

Ships
Sloop
Searanger
A basic fast transport craft with some minor armaments
HP 6, Attack 1, Defense 2, Speed 12, Cargo 8, Special- Water capable

Galley
Leviathan
An average craft nearly capable of equaling the Searanger's speed but with double the capacity
HP 8, Attack 7, Defense 6, Speed 8, Cargo 16, Special- Water capable, Ranged

Galleon
Avenger
A large, well armed and slow craft
HP 13, Attack 12, Defense 12, Speed 7, Cargo 32, Special- Water capable, Ranged

Ignore my last one, this is really the final version. Thank you Nihila

[0beron]

*is worried that Kaed's absence means his new job has caused him to just curl up in a hole and die of exhaustion* You ok buddy?

In the meantime, I'm one of those who is big on flavor and such, so I figured I would type up a lil description of my side's starting Capital

Morlock Wells is a city built into the very peak of Mount Morlock, its various stone structures connected by broad metal-wrought walkways and adorned with clockwork and pipes. Being a side full of fliers, broad terraces branch off the sides of buildings in apparent defiance of gravity. Every building seemed to be reaching for the sky, as if this highest mountain peak in sight were still not high enough above the Erf for their liking. As a level 1 City and lacking Walls, the peak is watched over by a circle of towers comprised of a staircase spiraling around a slender spire, crowned by a wide platform.

The Court Melodic itself was a small but elegant structure. Stone masonry and wrought metals form graceful spires and arches that leave the structure open to the cool breezes, warmer than one might expect for this elevation. At the front of the Court, facing into the rising sun, a grand clock marked the passage of time and turns, beginning with the construction of Morlock Wells. Within the Court, Queen Victoria Verne sits upon a simple but elegant throne of polished copper, backed by a grand device of pipes and strings and other accoutrements, which produces incredible music at her command.

[The Colonel]

*Pokes Kaed* Dude, you alive?

[Kaed]

I'm okay! I'm finishing up the map now, will be sending it to the other GM in a little bit and we can staaaart... tomorrow. Or today.

Depending on when he comes by.

(By the way people, Data Entry for the masses is uuuuuuuuugh. Wry you never bring your ID and proof of address it's not that freaking haaaard. This one lady, her 'ID' was a medical insurance card for her kid. That was expired as of 10 years ago. What 8I )

[Exate]

Glad to hear it; looking forward to starting.

Have you had the chance to take a look at the various pop times for units to address the concerns I raised in this post? Any changes are unlikely to be relevant for the first few turns unless you decide to change the base pop rates for level 1 cities, but once we get higher-level cities I'd say that the system is in need of serious revamping. Being prepared from the start on that score would be nice, since there will probably be enough to worry about just running the game without needing to muck about with the rules by the time any changes would become important.

[0beron]

Our first dozen turns aren't going to include anything special, I doubt we'll even be close enough together to MEET before we get level 2 cities. I think we can start anyway and iron out the popping rates, experience, and unit-level-ups in the next few days as we play.

[Balerion]

I have the map downloaded, so hopefully we can get things going soon

[Kaed]

I'm still thinking about the specials, but I've got a couple ideas about the infantry. Two things occurred to me:

-Combat in erfworld is all about the 8-stack. Why is popping rates centered around 2, then?

- There really should be more of them available in general.

So I redid the whole system. This new infantry system is a bit more complicated and involved. MATH TIME YAY.

The infantry now pop in a manner based on their type and the city's level.

Stabber & Piker:
Level 1 - 1 stack (8)
Level 2 - Fortify (with the walls, basic infantry become more defensive minded. +1 defense to new stacks)
Level 3 - 2 stacks
Level 4 - Fervor (The possibility of heirs has strengthened resolve to defend the homeland. +1 attack(stabber)/defense(piker) to new stacks)
Level 5 - 3 stacks

Archer:
1 - Half stack (4)
2 - +1 attack
3 - 1 stack
4 - +2 attack
5 - 3 stacks

Scout:
1 - Pair (2)
2 - +1 move
3 - Half stack
4 - +2 move
5 - 1 stack

Out of time so skipped some of the flavor. Thoughts?

[0beron]

Just a couple questions/comments.

1) Are these things listed what pops in a single turn?

2) I think these bonuses should apply retroactively. Wrigley (the Unaroyal stabber) mentioned training/practicing, so if new units are benefiting from better barracks/morale, then the old units should get that too.

3) The Knights definitely need to pop faster, cus they're currently equal to warlords and they're def less powerful.

4) I think the special units pop rates are pretty on-target. I might pop A/B at the same rate as Scouts are now (and maybe let them have a +1 to a stat of our choice, chosen when the city levels), C should pop as fast as A/B does now, and D should speed up a bit (maybe 1/10 turns starting at level 3, instead of 15)