Book 2 – Page 79

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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby woort » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:57 pm

0beron wrote:
singingbard wrote:
0beron wrote:EDIT: I got it!!!!! The REDEDIT was the Archons "editing" away the Flying Special granted by the jetpack!

If so, can that be considered a use of carnymancy?

I was JUST thinking the same thing....Archons only have Think-, Shock-, and Fool-amancies....and none of those cover specials. I mean, perhaps they "short-circuited" the jetpack with Shockamancy. Either that or Charlie intervened with a Wierdomancer somehow...?

I assume it was Shockamancy. The sound effect looks pretty similiar to the 4chan, etc. ones that Sizemore used in book 1.

And now that I think about this more, Dittomancy has to be temporary. Otherwise a dittomancer could just permanently double a units stats, each turn, forever. So this duplicate of the king only has one turn to live.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:30 pm

So what croaked, the original or the double?

I'd guess the original croaked. If there's a time limit he's planning on promoting Trem obviously.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby mmooneybsa » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:46 pm

Note:
Panels 1, 5, & 7 lines on crown
Panes 3, 6, 9, 10, & 11 no lines on crown

Art Mistake? Or, failure to fully ditto the signamancy?

3 & 6 lend more towards Art Mistake in my opinion. And it occurs in prior pages.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Aquillion » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:37 am

woort wrote:I assume it was Shockamancy. The sound effect looks pretty similiar to the 4chan, etc. ones that Sizemore used in book 1.

And now that I think about this more, Dittomancy has to be temporary. Otherwise a dittomancer could just permanently double a units stats, each turn, forever. So this duplicate of the king only has one turn to live.
It is also possible that the rules state something like "if only one is alive at the end of the turn, treat it as the real one; if both are alive, the newer one winks out."

This is powerful, but not as overwhelming as people are making it out to be (especially if the duplicate has to stay with the original.) It means that you're making a unit twice as hard to kill, but, well, dittomancy does that sort of thing.

Alternatively, it's possible that neither version is officially the "original", and whenever one dies you roll a 50-50 chance of having that be the "real" one -- so the king just got lucky on his roll, that's all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Messenger » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:05 am

What? No Double tap?

I found this update confusing, even though that's supposed to be apparent in the update itself. Thank you to all who clarified that something had screwed up between the King's fall and Lloyd's spell. In any case, this will all become clear soon in the next update.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:56 am

Huh.
I'm pretty sure Slately is gone. I need to read up on how falling works, but given the layout and the story so far, I don't think Slately's gonna survive his fall.

And I don't think clone-Slately is permanent. Think about it. Royal units, heirs, take something like 60 turns of production to pop, and I'm going to assume that their expense is on the same level. Add to that experience. Add to that the dollamancy, the high-tier equipment. I can buy temporary duplication. But, if a dollamancer can permanently even one unit on that scale, then, yeah, things are borked. Then there's no reason he couldn't have spent a couple of turns creating 50 Ansoms, complete with carpet and pliers, and just taken GK from the air. And we know that all the other stuff the dittomancer does is temporary. Doubling of unit stats isn't permanent. Doubling of arrows only lasts for the duration of the attack. In city production, I assume he just doubles the rate at which the city can pop units. He doesn't copy the units themselves. Erf is about multipliers, and a dittomancer is a walking multiplier.

And when his king as in trouble, the dittomancer did the only thing he knew: He doubled him to prevent the side from falling when the real Slately croaked.
And I'm pretty sure that his horrified expression in the last panel isn't at the fact that "Ohmigosh I got a compliment", it's at the fact that he saw his ruler die and is now talking to a clone that'll expire soon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Roketter » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:22 am

Regedit is a wordplay betwen the windows executable and the old latin word for king (Rex -king, or Regis -"Of the King")
So the Regedit sounds like the archons have edited the king. (Sounds much clearer if you speak spanish since the word for King is Rey)

There are tons of spells on fantasy games wich generate duplicates that allow the last surviving clone to become the original if any of the other existing ones dies, wether they were the original or not. I don't think anything happened to the king, and why would the mancer spend all his juice on duplicating him if it wouldn't save him from death just beats me. Flying over to beat the archons on the head with his staff would have been a better use of his time.

So i pretty much think Slately is just fine... unless the archons still around kill him now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:40 am

There are tons of spells on fantasy games wich generate duplicates that allow the last surviving clone to become the original if any of the other existing ones dies, wether they were the original or not.

This seems possible, but... no, it doesn't seem right. The dittomancer copies things. That's how he rolls. Clones are either permanent, or they aren't. WIt doesn't make sense for a clone to be permanent only if there's no original. Why would the existence of the original effect the permanence of the clone? I could see some sort of necromancy spell do that, "there can be only one" style, but dittomancy seems more clinical than that. I don't think it can create life. Mostly because dittomancy is focused solely on the element of matter. It's numbers-aligned stuffamancy, and stuffamancy is composed solely of matter, no life or motion. He created a copy that acts like the original and has the same stats and ability, but it's not alive. It's not the original, and doesn't have the ability to replace the original. That would require life. It's a fake. A very good fake, but one that will decay nonetheless. Probably at the end of the turn, though it could concievably last for longer.

I don't think anything happened to the king, and why would the mancer spend all his juice on duplicating him if it wouldn't save him from death just beats me.

Because if the king croaks, the side dies.Tramemnis isn't an heir yet, the only heir was Ossomer, and he just dusted. I don't think the dittomancer saw himself in a position to actually do anything to save the king, so, in his panic, he did the only thing he knew how. He copied something. It's not an original, but it's close enough that the side won't end while it exists.

All this is setting up for Clone-Slately to name Tramemnis as his heir before disappearing, and Ace probably swooping down to save Tram from dying.

That's how I see it anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Vorteks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:09 am

I assume "REGEDIT" is a pun, a riff off of "regal" words like "regicide". "REGEDIT" reads to me like "editing the king", and of course it is also is the Registry Editor for MS Windows as someone else previously noted.

I'm not exactly sure what happened with the dittomancy and the falling king, but I see at least 4 possibilities:

1. The real King Slately was hit by the Archons and is falling. As he fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him and the duplicate is just as valid as the original, preserving the side in the case of the original's death.

2. Before King Slately was hit and fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him in such a way that the new duplicate BECAME the original, making the previous one the fake. A sort of duplicate-while-switching-places spell. If you've ever seen a Japanese anime where ninjas use "kawarimi", (a popular example would be Naruto, there are others as well), it sometimes works like this.

3. The duplication effect actually began before this page when the Dittomancer started casting. This would mean that a duplicate king got hit, and it's the original (who had been hidden from sight somehow) that remains with the flying stack.

4. The duplicate that the Dittomancer created is the one that remains with the flying stack, and it does NOT count as the original. If this is the case, it would mean the side could potentially end when the king hits the ground. But it might not, because as we've seen before, fall damage is unpredictable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:18 am

Well first I wanna point out cus it seems like some people are forgetting this...there is a (presumably) 2/3 chance that whatever unit is falling now is ok. Falls from ANY height are treated the same, with the chance of Croaking, becoming Incapacitated with 0 hits, and being totally fine.

Vorteks brings up some interesting ideas, its helpful to seem them laid out all at once I think.
Vorteks wrote:1. The real King Slately was hit by the Archons and is falling. As he fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him and the duplicate is just as valid as the original, preserving the side in the case of the original's death.

Definitely possible, but the Duplicate must require juice to maintain, or perhaps has a time limit just like Uncroaked.
Vorteks wrote:2. Before King Slately was hit and fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him in such a way that the new duplicate BECAME the original, making the previous one the fake. A sort of duplicate-while-switching-places spell. If you've ever seen a Japanese anime where ninjas use "kawarimi", (a popular example would be Naruto, there are others as well), it sometimes works like this.

I believe this may have been the INTENT of the spell, but Lloyd was urging the king to wait, and it seems that Lloyd never FINISHED his spell. So I don't think he succeeded in accomplishing this.
Vorteks wrote:3. The duplication effect actually began before this page when the Dittomancer started casting. This would mean that a duplicate king got hit, and it's the original (who had been hidden from sight somehow) that remains with the flying stack.

Very unlikely if not impossible, because that would require Foolamancy (and thus respark that annoying debate from the discussion of page 78...let's please not go there again....)
Vorteks wrote:4. The duplicate that the Dittomancer created is the one that remains with the flying stack, and it does NOT count as the original. If this is the case, it would mean the side could potentially end when the king hits the ground. But it might not, because as we've seen before, fall damage is unpredictable.

Also possible, considering as I said before it appears Lloyd didn't get the chance to finish his spell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:24 am

Vorteks wrote:I assume "REGEDIT" is a pun, a riff off of "regal" words like "regicide". "REGEDIT" reads to me like "editing the king", and of course it is also is the Registry Editor for MS Windows as someone else previously noted.

I'm not exactly sure what happened with the dittomancy and the falling king, but I see at least 4 possibilities:

1. The real King Slately was hit by the Archons and is falling. As he fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him and the duplicate is just as valid as the original, preserving the side in the case of the original's death.

2. Before King Slately was hit and fell, the Dittomancer duplicated him in such a way that the new duplicate BECAME the original, making the previous one the fake. A sort of duplicate-while-switching-places spell. If you've ever seen a Japanese anime where ninjas use "kawarimi", (a popular example would be Naruto, there are others as well), it sometimes works like this.

3. The duplication effect actually began before this page when the Dittomancer started casting. This would mean that a duplicate king got hit, and it's the original (who had been hidden from sight somehow) that remains with the flying stack.

4. The duplicate that the Dittomancer created is the one that remains with the flying stack, and it does NOT count as the original. If this is the case, it would mean the side could potentially end when the king hits the ground. But it might not, because as we've seen before, fall damage is unpredictable.


Was about to chime in with some of this stuff... but easier just to say "well said!"

Regarding how the real King could have been hidden (a la #3), recall that duplication might have duplicated the cloak's foolamancy special (just as it clearly duplicated the Jetpack's flight special).

Love that Slately is on a moralistic tirade against Archon tactics while using the same tricks and doing just as much s**t talking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby drachefly » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:25 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
drachefly wrote:Slately's last line seemed really forced.

The author just making it clear that yes it was the dittomancer that made it happen.


Obviously. And the line seemed really forced.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:33 am

I don't think it's three. The mancer was actively casting while Slately was under attack. Two doesn't seem to fall under the dittomancer's purview, you'd need Motion for that. As I said, I think it's a mix between one and four. The clone is just that, a clone. It has exactly the same numbers and abilities as the original. That includes the quality of being the side's ruler. That's just another attribute, natural thinkamancy, probably. If slately dies, teh side won't fall due to the presence of the clone.

Being a clone, however, its lifespan is limited. Just like uncroaked units, only probably more so.

And yeah, the original Slately might be fine, but somehow, I don't think so. Look how this whole battle was set up, what the character's reactions are. I can't imagine the next page showing Slately doing just fine down below.
Getting units to fall is an inherently risky strategy (both to save them and to kill them), and if Slately croaks from this, then GK will seem pretty damn lucky (there was only a 4/9ths chance that Wanda would make it, a 1/3rd chance that Ossomer would die and a 1/3rd chance that Slately will croak, for a chance of 4/81, roughly 5% that it would turn out this well for them), but dramatically, I just don't think Slately will survive this. Or maybe he WILL survive the fall and then get croaked by GK units down below?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:41 am

0beron wrote:Well first I wanna point out cus it seems like some people are forgetting this...there is a (presumably) 2/3 chance that whatever unit is falling now is ok. Falls from ANY height are treated the same, with the chance of Croaking, becoming Incapacitated with 0 hits, and being totally fine.

GJC wrote:Getting units to fall is an inherently risky strategy (both to save them and to kill them), and if Slately croaks from this, then GK will seem pretty damn lucky (there was only a 4/9ths chance that Wanda would make it, a 1/3rd chance that Ossomer would die and a 1/3rd chance that Slately will croak, for a chance of 4/81, roughly 5% that it would turn out this well for them)...


Ah, 1/3rd, good to see you alive and well again. How oft you have been maligned on these forums only to show your face again.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-12.jpg

1. It never says equal chances of the three possibilities.
2. It does say height has some bearing on the likelyhoods of the various outcomes.

Thus far we've seen 4 injuries (Ansom, Ansom, Sylvia, Jack), 1-2 deaths (Ossomer, and maybe Ansom... if he wasn't just choked by a troll), and 2 incapacitations (Wanda, Wanda), that I can recall off the top of my head (neglecting the other dragon riders since the story focusing on the living would constitute a substantial bias).

This is to say we should probably stop making arguments that rely upon the chances of each outcome being a third of the total. It may be the simplest explanation, but we have more evidence against it than for it (actually, it is impossible to always be 1/3rd given part 2 above).


drachefly wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
drachefly wrote:Slately's last line seemed really forced.

The author just making it clear that yes it was the dittomancer that made it happen.


Obviously. And the line seemed really forced.


Indeed.. "Well done, Dittomancer!" Would have conveyed the same idea, IMO.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:54 am

This is to say we should probably stop making arguments that rely upon the chances of each outcome being a third of the total. It may be the simplest explanation, but we have more evidence against it than for it (actually, it is impossible to always be 1/3rd given part 2 above).


They're unreasonably lucky in either case, though. And since all these falls happened from the same height, we can ignore the "height" factor pretty safely. If the odds are in favor of death, then Wanda and Jack not croaking is unreasonably lucky. If the odds are in favor of incapacitation, same thing. If they had both been incapacitated, they'd have died. They'd need one to heal the other with scrolls. And if the odds are in favor of survival, then Wanda and Jack's survival makes a lot more sense. But Ossomer (and, presumably, Slately) croaking are both lucky! Not to mention Ansom. The survival of Wanda is more important to the side than the death of Ossomer and (presumably) Slately, but the latter two are pretty vital as well.

Not that there's anything wrong with being lucky, just saying. If you think about the odds, and think of how much luck they needed to even get this far, you can see the "underdog" aspect really shining through. In book one, their victory was a lot more calculated. It seemed that Parson at least had control over proceedings. Now in books two and three, they have far more forces, but they lose initiative all too frequently, and they are still up against forces more powerful than themselves. They're still an underdog, just in a different way. And I think that's cool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:56 am

Yes that is why I said "presumably". I know it's not perfectly even thirds, I was approximating to point out there's still a decent chance the King doesn't instantly croak when he hits the ground. How so many people seem to be struck by a split second fit of blindness when they see my qualifying words is beyond me.

I will admit I glanced over the height aspect though, my mistake. I didn't recall if that update mentioned it at all, or said it very faintly influences. But "it's mostly random" says to me that height is a minimal factor in the equation, especially given that he goes on to say you can croak from a 3 foot fall.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Goneril » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:00 am

Slately´s last line fit into the situation less than seamlessly, didn´t it?
Also, I´d like to see Tram become the ruler now, this would be a time to show how good a diplomat he really is.

EDIT: also, see http://www.youtube.com/user/zzirGrizz - PEW PEW!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:15 am

GJC wrote:They're unreasonably lucky in either case, though. And since all these falls happened from the same height, we can ignore the "height" factor pretty safely.


I agree with you that GK has lucked out here in a big way so far... I wouldn't say unreasonably though... if you assume that prophecy negates the chances of Wanda dying from a fall, then GK actually had the best of the worst (or possibly just the worst depending on your point of view) possible outcomes (Wanda incapacitated, Jack surviving). Given what we now know about luckamancy, we must wonder who fate will give the unlucky rolls that Wanda may or may not have had to.

However, we also have evidence to suggest that these falls were not from the same height.

Compare panel 9 here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-13.jpg

with the later panel 1 here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-14.jpg

Specifically consider where the dwagons are relative to the archons. It appears that the dwagons flew down to just above the ex-roof of the garrison before they started being converted to rations. Slately and Ossomer are still way up high.

Also might be a moot point w.r.t. Slately. Looks to me like the dood got murdered by archon blasts... I'm thinking falling is the least of his problems.

0beron wrote:I was approximating to point out there's still a decent chance the King doesn't instantly croak when he hits the ground. How so many people seem to be struck by a split second fit of blindness when they see my qualifying words is beyond me.


Hahah... 1/3rd is like a fire. It must be stomped out while it is still a candle-flame :D Consider how quickly it spread to GJC's post.

Presumably isn't the best qualifier to use there then, methinks. "Very likely, but not known for certain." In this case, you have said that you know it isn't a 1/3rd chance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:25 am

One third was actually somethign I've been assuming for quite a while; I only brought it up now. But "never got mentioned" is a good point. As is the prophecy, I suppose. Though even if we factor the prophecy in, it's still extremely lucky. It's just manipulated luck, the failure still has to go somewhere. Any yeah, wonder where.

And in regards to height, I think the garrison roof is just really high up. Like, if you look at the first picture you posted, there's maybe a Dwagon-length difference between the tower and the roof. Doesn't seem too significant. But yeah, not exactly the same height.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby TheMutant » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:47 am

My Shmuckers are placed on the theory that Slately's duplicate counts in every single way- including that it'll hold the side if the real Slately croaks in the fall- but that it IS a finite spell (it'd be a bit broken if not!), so maybe we'll get a dramatic scene where dupe!Slately manages to promote Tramennis just before he fades away or something of the sort.
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