Book 2 – Page 79

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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:02 am

zilfallon wrote:about which slately fell down:

i assume lloyd's words (double checker, double bind and such) meant that he was casting a spell. slately's fall (regedit, and again, assuming regedit was archons disabling the jetpack) happened after lloyd completed the spell (again, assuming his words meant a spell cast).

this makes me think that the "clone" , "secondary", "whatever u call it" is the one whose jetpack was regedited by archons and fell down.

however, in the last panel, Lloyd says "s-sure", which, i believe, implies uncertainty. what does that mean, exactly? does it mean that he lacks COMPLETE control over that spell?


I would like to point out that the Slatley that didn't fall down gloats on how he's now twice as strong/fast/etc, and then thanks to the dittomancer for having been created that way.

That's why he changes from struggling to suddenly going around croaking archons left and right. He's an improved copy of the original Slatley.

That's also why it is completely borked if he's permanent even if the original dies. Jetstone could've just gone around creating copies of their top units that are twice as good as before, then killing the original to make the improved duplicate stick. Rise and repeat every turn as the dittomancer recovers his juice (no, it is not expensive because he had already used a lot of juice over the turn and could still pull this of). Oh, and fully duplicate wargear on those units since you're at it.

Lloyd is worried at the ed because he didn't suceed on finishing the spell in time to help the original king, and his side is now stuck with a temporary king and will fall when he vanishes unless they get an heir in time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Lamech » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:34 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
zilfallon wrote:about which slately fell down:

i assume lloyd's words (double checker, double bind and such) meant that he was casting a spell. slately's fall (regedit, and again, assuming regedit was archons disabling the jetpack) happened after lloyd completed the spell (again, assuming his words meant a spell cast).

this makes me think that the "clone" , "secondary", "whatever u call it" is the one whose jetpack was regedited by archons and fell down.

however, in the last panel, Lloyd says "s-sure", which, i believe, implies uncertainty. what does that mean, exactly? does it mean that he lacks COMPLETE control over that spell?


I would like to point out that the Slatley that didn't fall down gloats on how he's now twice as strong/fast/etc, and then thanks to the dittomancer for having been created that way.

That's why he changes from struggling to suddenly going around croaking archons left and right. He's an improved copy of the original Slatley.

That's also why it is completely borked if he's permanent even if the original dies. Jetstone could've just gone around creating copies of their top units that are twice as good as before, then killing the original to make the improved duplicate stick. Rise and repeat every turn as the dittomancer recovers his juice (no, it is not expensive because he had already used a lot of juice over the turn and could still pull this of). Oh, and fully duplicate wargear on those units since you're at it.

Lloyd is worried at the ed because he didn't suceed on finishing the spell in time to help the original king, and his side is now stuck with a temporary king and will fall when he vanishes unless they get an heir in time.

The better a unit is the more it costs to double, otherwise it would be completely borked. Even if the doubling was temp, regardless of it if doubled stats, or just made a copy.

Consider a cost neutral solution: Dittomancer gets enough juice to copy himself. Cool. Now he levels some. He has enough juice to copy himself twice.
Now case 1: Doubled Stats: He doubles self. He now has as much juice as before. Repeat until he has absurd levels of attack, defense, and hits. (And XP from the castings.) Now he is a super invincible unit.
Case 2: Two dittomancers. He makes a copy. This dittomancer makes another copy from the original. The new copy does the same. We now have massive numbers of dittomancers. The copies go out and swarm Translovito style. (Or he levels once more so they all have extra juice and they do something absurd.)

Summary: Cost for doubling units depends on unit strength. Therefore:
That's also why it is completely borked if he's permanent even if the original dies. Jetstone could've just gone around creating copies of their top units that are twice as good as before, then killing the original to make the improved duplicate stick. Rise and repeat every turn as the dittomancer recovers his juice (no, it is not expensive because he had already used a lot of juice over the turn and could still pull this of). Oh, and fully duplicate wargear on those units since you're at it.

Isn't possible. As the units get better it will be too difficult to pull off the spell.

Also I disagree with your assessment that Stanley has better stats for sure. He shot an archon before hand, and got two archons afterward. The second two could have lost leadership, Stanley gotten lucky, been lower level ect.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby zilfallon » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:43 pm

Lamech wrote:Also I disagree with your assessment that Stanley has better stats for sure. He shot an archon before hand, and got two archons afterward. The second two could have lost leadership, Stanley gotten lucky, been lower level ect.


did you mean slately there? because i couldn't understand if i assumed you intended to write stanley?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Raza » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:43 pm

Messenger wrote:Um... While we've all been focusing on Slately, can anyone tell if Ace did get hit by the Archon "No... Better!!" Slately pew-pewed? She did get her shot off.

Doesn't seem to be anything to go by. He's probably fine though: so far the unipegataurs have been effectively absorbing and/or blocking those blasts, and honestly the guy looks like he could take a hit and live.

Messenger wrote:It's not about Ossomer getting dismounted and crashing to his death. What gets Slately, what all of this is about, is that the decrypted aren't merely "undead"- corpses without their original souls and minds of their own acting on the volition of a cryptomancer- but are actually the people brought back to life but suddenly- disturbingly, wrongly- so loyal to their new side, so accepting of new beliefs. Remember the long talk Ossomer had with his dad while he was still working for Wanda? Or even Ansom talking to Trammenis and a living Ossomer?

It's betrayal. It's about seeing someone you know and love, someone you once trusted turning on you and what you once held dearest above all things. Even if it's just a side effect being decrypted, it's personally disgusting.

As for illusions and doubles- at least they're just illusions and doubles. They are by nature and directly defined as false. There's still something honest in that. But when someone comes back from the dead working eagerly for the enemy who killed them while claiming it's the truer side and inviting you to join in? Now that is falseness.

You're probably right. Personally, I don't find decryption-induced loyalty any more disturbing than the ordinary variety, but it makes sense that he'd see it that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Kandarin » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:31 pm

The duplicate didn't pop until the original croaked. I'd like to think that that's a limitation of the spell that keeps it from being broken. The Dittomancer can give one unit extra permanent "lives" for combat in a given turn (unlike the temporary Unipegataurs) but there can still be only one of that unit in existence at any one time and the Dittomancer's juice won't last forever.

If the trick Lloyd just pulled is well-known, it'd also go a long way toward explaining why Slately (or any ruler who's not a freewheeling Barbarian Queen) would keep such a valuable caster at home. Sure, a Dittomancer can turn the tide of key battles, but they're also insurance against a decapitation strike based on assassination or veiled raiders.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Thoke » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:49 pm

elecampane wrote:I believe duplicating effect is seen as faint blue light cloud on panels 2 (from Dittomancer's staff to empty space and to Slately) and 4 (around Slately). Since on panel 5 Slately isn't surrounded by this light cloud, I assume duplicate is already made and is hiding behind archon's backs. So, REGEDIT is persumably sound of archons collective spell, which they have prepared on panel 6.


I see the blue cloud as a preparation for duplication and the regedit as the actual sound when the duplication happens. Eh, I guess any guess is as valid as we don't know nearly as much to be sure.


And I see the "archons' collective spell" quite far-fetched... We see the jetpack apart from Slately in panel 8, and that's why I interpret it as being blasted off. If the flying special was just removed, I think Slately would still have his jetpack (broken though). I think Slately is falling because he doesn't have the jetpack anymore.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby BrotherRool » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:26 pm

Thoke wrote:

And I see the "archons' collective spell" quite far-fetched... We see the jetpack apart from Slately in panel 8, and that's why I interpret it as being blasted off. If the flying special was just removed, I think Slately would still have his jetpack (broken though). I think Slately is falling because he doesn't have the jetpack anymore.

I'm not sure if it's been edited or I'm seeing something different from you, but in panel 8, to me it seems like I can clearly see the jetpack still on his back, even the straps of it are still around him, as well as the silver by the side, it's his pew pew laser that's out of his hand, apart from him
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Thoke » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:58 pm

BrotherRool wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been edited or I'm seeing something different from you, but in panel 8, to me it seems like I can clearly see the jetpack still on his back, even the straps of it are still around him, as well as the silver by the side, it's his pew pew laser that's out of his hand, apart from him


... Oh... Slately has his jetpack, and I mustn't come here at midnight.
I guess that raises a chance for REGEDIT being some kind of collective archon weirdomancy spell, but it could also be that the 2 shockamancy blasts broke the jetpack.
Until we get more knowledge.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:46 pm

Lamech wrote:Summary: Cost for doubling units depends on unit strength. Therefore:
That's also why it is completely borked if he's permanent even if the original dies. Jetstone could've just gone around creating copies of their top units that are twice as good as before, then killing the original to make the improved duplicate stick. Rise and repeat every turn as the dittomancer recovers his juice (no, it is not expensive because he had already used a lot of juice over the turn and could still pull this of). Oh, and fully duplicate wargear on those units since you're at it.

Isn't possible. As the units get better it will be too difficult to pull off the spell.

Cost being related to power is just speculation in your part, and then also irrelevant in this case. If the clones were permanent assuming you kill the original, then there would be no reason whatsoever for jetstone to don't have maximized the stats and gear of their main leadership corps by now.

Also, all the permanent cloning would make the dittomancer powerlevel like crazy, which in turn allows him to make better clones, which allow him to powerlevel even more by your standards, leading to even better clones and the loop keeps repeating with stronger and stronger results. All Jetstone has to do is sit some time and soon they're unleashing units of doom that can solo armies thanks to exponential growth of dozens of turns of doubling.


Lamech wrote:Also I disagree with your assessment that Stanley has better stats for sure. He shot an archon before hand, and got two archons afterward. The second two could have lost leadership, Stanley gotten lucky, been lower level ect.


He makes three attacks and hits one while the archons are all smug, even deflecting his attacks, then the clone makes two attacks and scores two perfect headhots while the archons suddenly look helpless to even slow him down. That's kinda too big a diference of performace for just luck.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Lamech » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:14 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Cost being related to power is just speculation in your part, and then also irrelevant in this case. If the clones were permanent assuming you kill the original, then there would be no reason whatsoever for jetstone to don't have maximized the stats and gear of their main leadership corps by now.
Slately didn't have his items maxed before this turn either. So they did not "maximize the gear of their main leadership corps". Hence, your assumption is wrong. While it is speculation, its the same logic as yours. More to the point you're making the claim: "Permanent duplicates are broken." But that only holds if cost is fixed.


Also, all the permanent cloning would make the dittomancer powerlevel like crazy, which in turn allows him to make better clones, which allow him to powerlevel even more by your standards, leading to even better clones and the loop keeps repeating with stronger and stronger results. All Jetstone has to do is sit some time and soon they're unleashing units of doom that can solo armies thanks to exponential growth of dozens of turns of doubling.
There is 0 reason to assume that cloning provides more XP than any other use of the caster's discipline. A caster can spend all juice most turns even if its just for scrolls.

Lamech wrote:Also I disagree with your assessment that Stanley has better stats for sure. He shot an archon before hand, and got two archons afterward. The second two could have lost leadership, Stanley gotten lucky, been lower level ect.


He makes three attacks and hits one while the archons are all smug, even deflecting his attacks, then the clone makes two attacks and scores two perfect headhots while the archons suddenly look helpless to even slow him down. That's kinda too big a diference of performace for just luck.

I... don't think you understand how probability and statistics work. First it was five shots and three kills. The heart shot killed the archon just as well as the head shot, there is no reason to assume a difference. If the three kill shots were random there is a 30% chance that the two of the kill shots would have been after the double popped. That is luck territory. Second, if you get the data first and look for patterns later you'll find patterns when its just random chance. Consider if the three kill shots had been first. Then the duplicate would appear weaker. Suppose Slately killed two archons, missed twice, and then hit the archon. Then it appears that the last archon was extra tough.

Finally, there is still the possibility of lost leadership, level differences, and the certainty of lost stack bonuses.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Nnelg » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Really I don't see any reason why the "REGEDIT" 'sound effect' should be taken so seriously. It's a play on the word "regent" and the name of the Windows registry editor (which fits Charlescomm's "IT" theme). It doesn't mean the archons are literally editing Slately in any way. (Although, it might be worth noting that it's relatively easy to boop up your computer real bad with it, and I mean "wipe the hard drive and load a new OS" bad.)

oslecamo2_temp wrote:I would like to point out that the Slatley that didn't fall down gloats on how he's now twice as strong/fast/etc, and then thanks to the dittomancer for having been created that way.

I think he was talking about he was better than the archons, not the Slately that's falling to the ground. I also doubt he's being literal about how much better he is.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:That's also why it is completely borked if he's permanent even if the original dies. Jetstone could've just gone around creating copies of their top units that are twice as good as before, then killing the original to make the improved duplicate stick. Rise and repeat every turn as the dittomancer recovers his juice (no, it is not expensive because he had already used a lot of juice over the turn and could still pull this of). Oh, and fully duplicate wargear on those units since you're at it.

Are you by chance assuming that juice is a sort of "spells/day" hard limit, as opposed to a pool with "income"; by which I mean are you thinking that unused juice 'expires' and is wasted or builds up over time? Jillian's Turnamancer has already described that turn-ender spell as costing "two turns worth [of juice]", which would imply that juice can be built up over time and spent all at once. She had enough energy left over to attempt a turn spell on a high-level target, which probably wasn't cheap either. So she was able to store at least 2-3 turns worth of juice, (more if she gave any of Faq's units extra move the previous turn) and that's without a tower or scrolls -both of which Lloyd has had access to. Add to that the juice he gained at the start of Jetstone's turn, and it seems quite likely to me that particular dupe spell could have cost an entire turn or more worth of juice.

Besides, I see no reason why permanently duping (low-level) units and wargear (or high-level IFF the original dies) should be beyond the capabilities of a sufficiently high-level dittomancer. Although, if I were his ruler I would rather he spent his juice on doubling my income...

Messenger wrote:Um... While we've all been focusing on Slately, can anyone tell if Ace did get hit by the Archon "No... Better!!" Slately pew-pewed? She did get her shot off.

I can see Ace's hair in the bottom-left corner of the second-to-last panel.

Kandarin wrote:The duplicate didn't pop until the original croaked. I'd like to think that that's a limitation of the spell that keeps it from being broken.

We don't know that for sure, we only know neither we nor the archons saw him before then. It's just as likely that he purposely left off-panel for story purposes.


Lastly: while I think that what's "balanced" has been a moot point since Ansom's decryption, I'd like to point out that there's reason to believe neither Slately nor his items are high-leveled. Slately's a ruler, not a warlord, and his magic items were enchanted this turn, by casters in a rush -for all we know they'll crumble at the end of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Nnelg » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:54 pm

He makes three attacks and hits one while the archons are all smug, even deflecting his attacks, then the clone makes two attacks and scores two perfect headhots while the archons suddenly look helpless to even slow him down. That's kinda too big a diference of performace for just luck.

Statistically speaking, it is impossible to make any sort of inference until the 'new' Slately misses or hits like 30 in a row.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:43 pm

Nnelg wrote:Jillian's Turnamancer has already described that turn-ender spell as costing "two turns worth [of juice]", which would imply that juice can be built up over time and spent all at once.

I think It's a mistake to draw any conclusions about Juice usage from that spell. It's possible that the when the spell creates an artificial new turn, it penalizes the caster by not restoring their full Juice pool (like a normal new turn would) as part of its "cost", which could be a unique, plausible feature of that spell alone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Lamech » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:34 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Nnelg wrote:Jillian's Turnamancer has already described that turn-ender spell as costing "two turns worth [of juice]", which would imply that juice can be built up over time and spent all at once.

I think It's a mistake to draw any conclusions about Juice usage from that spell. It's possible that the when the spell creates an artificial new turn, it penalizes the caster by not restoring their full Juice pool (like a normal new turn would) as part of its "cost", which could be a unique, plausible feature of that spell alone.

Yup, this is what I think kingworld did. No juice recovery.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Nnelg » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:15 am

Fair enough, that's just as valid an explanation.

I just wanted to make it clear though: without conclusive evidence, assuming juice doesn't carry over from turn to turn is just as bad as assuming it does.


However, regardless of whether or not casters can carry over juice from turn to turn, we know that scrolls and towers can. Lloyd's arrow quadrupling was cast on GK's turn, so he had his personal juice restored after that. And the unipegataur doubling was cast from the tower, so for all we know all Lloyd's had to use his own juice for is upkeep (if that's even necessary). Therefore, the exact (read: without doubled stats) duplication of Slately (a mid-level character with hastily-crafted items) has been the only spell we're certain he's had to use his own juice for. And frankly, if a dittomancer of his caliber can't handle such a simple task as that, then I have absolutely no idea what they're good for.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby drachefly » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:34 am

Nnelg wrote:
He makes three attacks and hits one while the archons are all smug, even deflecting his attacks, then the clone makes two attacks and scores two perfect headhots while the archons suddenly look helpless to even slow him down. That's kinda too big a diference of performace for just luck.

Statistically speaking, it is impossible to make any sort of inference until the 'new' Slately misses or hits like 30 in a row.


In a ROW? Don't be silly. Four in a row misses turning to four in a row hits would be very strong evidence of a shift in ability.

But I do not think this really counts. The first kill after the dupe was an instance of total tactical surprise. Execution-style, from the rear. If he was able to capitalize on this surprise, that would explain the run. Even if he weren't, loss of stack bonus would go a ways to explain it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Kyrt » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:55 am

Nnelg wrote:Really I don't see any reason why the "REGEDIT" 'sound effect' should be taken so seriously. It's a play on the word "regent" and the name of the Windows registry editor (which fits Charlescomm's "IT" theme). It doesn't mean the archons are literally editing Slately in any way. (Although, it might be worth noting that it's relatively easy to boop up your computer real bad with it, and I mean "wipe the hard drive and load a new OS" bad.)


To be honest...I take it that the Archons are essentially "editing" away the "flight" ability. A play on Regent it might be, but editing the properties of a system is what Regedit does.

I think he was talking about he was better than the archons, not the Slately that's falling to the ground. I also doubt he's being literal about how much better he is.


I took it as a simple reference to the fact there is now two of him.

Are you by chance assuming that juice is a sort of "spells/day" hard limit, as opposed to a pool with "income"; by which I mean are you thinking that unused juice 'expires' and is wasted or builds up over time? Jillian's Turnamancer has already described that turn-ender spell as costing "two turns worth [of juice]", which would imply that juice can be built up over time and spent all at once.


No. It can imply that. It doesn't necessarily do so. It may simply mean she can't regen Juice this turn so she is left running on fumes. It may also mean Kingsworld requires a group to cast, with the extra Juice coming from someone else. Or that she had to take Juice from the tower.

Add to that the juice he gained at the start of Jetstone's turn, and it seems quite likely to me that particular dupe spell could have cost an entire turn or more worth of juice.


There has to be a limit on juice. Otherwise, scrolls, towers and the like lose a lot of value. Who cares how much juice a spell costs if the caster can rest and store 50 turns worth.

Besides, I see no reason why permanently duping (low-level) units and wargear (or high-level IFF the original dies) should be beyond the capabilities of a sufficiently high-level dittomancer.


If he dupes the King permanently...who rules? If he dupes a Chief Warlord...who commands?

Right now, what we know is that he did dupe the king. But....we also know Slately rushed into battle, that Lloyd didn't want him to do so for some reason, and Lloyd seems a little unsure at the end. Is there a reason Lloyd didn't want Slately fighting? Is there a reason he seems a little uncertain at the end?

As it is, we don't know how the dupe spell works.

Is the clone temporary? If so....Jetstone is dead, albeit with a chance to recover if they can make Tram an heir.
Does the clone become real when Slately dies? Possible. But then I'd like to know why Lloyd is worried.
Is the clone permanent? If so, then there have to be qualities that can't be duplicated - rulership for example. But that's just as bad as a temporary dupe.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:38 am

Nnelg wrote:I just wanted to make it clear though: without conclusive evidence, assuming juice doesn't carry over from turn to turn is just as bad as assuming it does.

I disagree. From everything we've seen of Erfworld so far, we can safely assume that Juice doesn't carry over by default. We can't state it conclusively, but it's a more likely model of how it works. Erfworld has shown that each turn tends to reset units to their 'base state'. Wounds disappear, garbage vanishes, bodies are gone, etc. In the absence of conclusive evidence, casters returning to a "full juice" state seems more likely, and more "in character" for an Erfworld mechanic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:46 am

I have to agree with Marbit, based on the example of Bunny. Every turn, she spends her leftover juice thinkagraming with Caesar...if that was juice she could be saving instead, it'd be against her Duty to "waste" it with Caesar.
To play Devil's advocate though, Maggie is very astute about Stanley's mood, and does things to make sure he feels good about himself, because it's better for the side if he is. So perhaps keeping Caesar in a good mood also is better for the side (perhaps lessening his desire/chances of running a coup against Don).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Thoke » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:52 am

If archons can remove specials (collectively, at least 2 needed?)... They can make a ship not float on water, drop down anything from the sky, remove tunneling specials from crucial leadership characters (would be interesting to see what would happen if that was removed and the unit was in a tunnel), remove forest-capable specials... maybe even remove some leadership bonus? Or warlord status? They're all special abilities arent they? They could do this veiled. Of course this can be hard to do if enemy has unit(s) that can detect veiled units, or against a big stack of units where being detected is more probable. They could go group kamikaze, though.

... Still seems like a very powerful ability. If they can remove flying special from a ruler, where's the limit?

It could also be that archons can only remove specials from items. Wouldn't be so powerful that way. But I'm still suspicious about this ability. Doesn't seem like the spell belongs in either shockamancy, foolamancy, dollamancy, or thinkamancy.
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