Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby drachefly » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:28 am

As noted earlier, intellectual cowardice is Jillian's weak spot. She can avoid putting 2 and 2 together for an arbitrarily long time if she feels uncomfortable about 4.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:28 am

Smoker wrote:
Saladman wrote:Rusty may not have any other outlet for his Juice.

:shock:
I shall never look at spell-casting the same way again.

THIS.
Lamech wrote:How old exactly?

I think the estimation of 700 turns old for Jillian is too small.
Consider the following:
  • NONE of the sides we are familiar with in the "present day" seem to exist during Book 0. Transylvito for example, which we know is reasonably close to FAQ, has come into existence and had AT LEAST 2 kings since book 0. (Somewhere I believe it even says how old King County and Don both are/were).
  • Wanda is Master-Class. Given the apparent rarity of Master-classes (we only know of Marie, Jack, Janis, and the Great Minds) I imagine it takes a good long life to attain that rank.
  • It seems there has been a good chunk of time between Jillian popping, and the current time of Book 0. She is very familiar with Court, and with mercenary work.
Given all this, I wouldn't be surprised if Jillian's and Wanda's ages are in the neighborhood of a few THOUSAND.
Also, some people have observed that hundreds of turns equates to only a few year in earth-time...yes that's true but units in Erfworld seem to live much shorter lives. So by comparison, Jillian, Wanda, Jack, and Marie seem obscenely old. So while this doesn't actually "affect" anything in their social interactions because they don't actually AGE, it still says quite a lot about their abilities and survival capabilities.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Lamech » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:30 am

Whispri wrote:Here's a question, how the boop can Future Era Jillian not suspect Wanda of having a hand in Faq's destruction? She should be the number one suspect after this, Dwagons or no. I can see Jillian not wanting to think about it, but after Wanda made it clear she was backing Stanley to the hilt of her own free will...
Two possibilities:
1) Jillian's a moron.
2) Wanda knows thinkamancy. Jillian's memories of those talks were replaced with "The down fall of FAQ will be caused by this moron with a plastic hammer."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:35 am

Whispri wrote:Here's a question, how the boop can Future Era Jillian not suspect Wanda of having a hand in Faq's destruction? She should be the number one suspect after this, Dwagons or no. I can see Jillian not wanting to think about it, but after Wanda made it clear she was backing Stanley to the hilt of her own free will...

Lamech wrote:Two possibilities:
1) Jillian's a moron.

In my opinion, the far more likely of the 2. As a previous poster stated, Jillian has a hardcore weak spot for Intellectual Bravery....she avoids putting 2 and 2 together for as long as possible.
Lamech wrote:2) Wanda knows thinkamancy. Jillian's memories of those talks were replaced with "The down fall of FAQ will be caused by this moron with a plastic hammer."

Possibly, but unlikely for a few reasons. One is the fact that Jillian was very far away at the time, making such thinkamancy harder (all the suggestions and such we have seen were done close-range, and sometimes required a lot of time). And also I'm not sure she could bear to do that to Jillian.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:52 am

Only one Rule, I think. You can enter the Incapacitated State as the result of combat, not just falling.

Okay, maybe sending the Shockmancer out with the expeditionary mercenaries might have been a bad idea. I rescind the suggestion.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:02 am

0beron wrote:[list][*]NONE of the sides we are familiar with in the "present day" seem to exist during Book 0. Transylvito for example, which we know is reasonably close to FAQ, has come into existence and had AT LEAST 2 kings since book 0. (Somewhere I believe it even says how old King County and Don both are/were).

Incorrect, Transylvito exists during book 0. Jillian mentions that in addition to Haffaton, Transivito also borders Faq(to the south).
http://www.erfworld.com/page/13/

Lamech wrote:Two possibilities:
1) Jillian's a moron.
2) Wanda knows thinkamancy. Jillian's memories of those talks were replaced with "The down fall of FAQ will be caused by this moron with a plastic hammer."

3) Jillian is NOT a fatalist

When it comes down to it, A LOT of characters do not like that idea that fate is unavoidable and will actively fight it. In fact the events of this book may even lead Jillian to believe that you can fight it... afterall, Marie just made the prediction that Haffaton would be about Faq's fall; But as we know, Haffaton will fall long before Faq does... So even though Haffaton could be loosely attributed to Faq's fall because that's where Faq picked up a rather poisonous wanda, Jillian may be under the belief that Marie's predictions can be wrong because they survived haffaton itself, and does not know that Wanda was responsible.



Thinking about it, this does make me wonder how much Marie is playing games... Did she REALLY have the vague predictions that "Faq will fall" and "Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's fall"? Or did she actually predict "Wanda will cause faq to fall" and has been leaving out the detail of wanda. If so it would show she is being a manipulative *boop*... it that is the case then it really makes me think that while fighting fate may be difficult it might not truly be as impossible as they think; they however are fatalists and thus are so deep in their belief that fate can not be fought that they will actively work to help fate along rather than search for an answer that might help them avoid it... in this case, if Marie did know that Wanda would bring about Faq's destruction, she could have helped Faq avoid that fate by making sure that Banhammer never allowed wanda into faq or croaked her (so she could not destroy faq from the outside); but instead, Marie lets wanda in to do what she does so that she can move on to her next stop to acquire her destined tool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:09 am

MonteCristo wrote:
0beron wrote:
  • NONE of the sides we are familiar with in the "present day" seem to exist during Book 0. Transylvito for example, which we know is reasonably close to FAQ, has come into existence and had AT LEAST 2 kings since book 0. (Somewhere I believe it even says how old King County and Don both are/were).

Incorrect, Transylvito exists during book 0. Jillian mentions that in addition to Haffaton, Transivito also borders FAQ (to the south).
http://www.erfworld.com/page/13/

Ah very good catch, thank you! I used Transylvito as the example cus I felt we had an idea of how old they were, and they're also closest.
Unless I'm missing something though, I'm pretty sure neither Jetstone nor GK are mentioned, and they're the next closest. It could be they exist and just haven't been mentioned, but given Haffaton's size and the fact it nearly surrounds FAQ, Haffaton must be in the territory GK and Jetstone hold now....and both of those Sides (certainly Jetstone) give the impression of being quite old as well.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:43 am

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
0beron wrote:
  • NONE of the sides we are familiar with in the "present day" seem to exist during Book 0. Transylvito for example, which we know is reasonably close to FAQ, has come into existence and had AT LEAST 2 kings since book 0. (Somewhere I believe it even says how old King County and Don both are/were).

Incorrect, Transylvito exists during book 0. Jillian mentions that in addition to Haffaton, Transivito also borders FAQ (to the south).
http://www.erfworld.com/page/13/

Ah very good catch, thank you! I used Transylvito as the example cus I felt we had an idea of how old they were, and they're also closest.
Unless I'm missing something though, I'm pretty sure neither Jetstone nor GK are mentioned, and they're the next closest. It could be they exist and just haven't been mentioned, but given Haffaton's size and the fact it nearly surrounds FAQ, Haffaton must be in the territory GK and Jetstone hold now....and both of those Sides (certainly Jetstone) give the impression of being quite old as well.



We don't know about some sides like Jetstone and Unaroyal since we don't know how far away they are from Faq (though i do think there was quit a few cities between unaroyal and gobwinknob)... We also can't even be sure of sides such as Jitterati; for all we know the side could exist along the border of haffaton and after haffaton's fall, it then claims the cities near faq. Gobwinknob however i might doubt exists, since their captial seems rather close to faq which would make them likely to also border faq if they were indeed around... However i would not say its impossible... while stanely did make a bee-line for faq, we don't know if its possible that other cities might have been arlong that rought that would have allowed haffaton to border Faq with Gobwinkonb just outside (though likely next on haffaton's hit parade)...

Not to mention that after haffaton falls, all of their cities will go barbarian... and with how many cities they have, they likely have many capital sites. The surrounding sides will be quick to not only pick up all these cities but they may use the captial sites to spin off new Sides, and thus the territory around Faq could change VERY quickly.



Though Gobwinknob's age can be uncertain... the name Saline IV could imply that he's atleast the fourth king of Gowbinknob which would make the side pretty old(because before him there would have been Saline I, Saline II, and Saline III). But we can't be certain... for instance, Saline IV could actually have been the heir to different royal side that Saline's I-III lived and ruled; however instead of becoming king of that side, the side decided to use Haffaton's fall as a way to claim a capitol site (near Faq) and used Saline IV status of heir to start a new side (gobwinknob)... this in turn would mean that Gobwinknob is actually quite young.


As for Jetstone; i would say is possibly far enough that it could exist outside of haffaton's sphere but might be very close (Jetstone borders unaroyal, which is east of gowbinknob which is east of Faq)... however i might add that what i'm referring to is the location of Spacerock which is not even Jetstone's original captiol. So the original Captiol of jetstone, and thus the original certain the jetstone side could be even furthar than that. But saying that i must remember that spacerock used to belong to another side before it belong to Jetstone; but like i said, it's far enough away from Faq that it might not be part of haffaton and could currently exist.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Amado » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:48 am

I'm still carrying the theory that Wanda has a chip on her shoulder about Jetstone because, in her mind at least, Jetstone represents some kind of continuity or successor to Haffaton.

We actually know quite little about Haffaton, thus far.

But why would Wanda attach to GK so willingly? What does THAT represent for her? Or was it just the "fated" thing?

What other predictions might Wanda be aware of? How might they be affecting her motivations?

That's good storytelling.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Mizzle » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 am

MonteCristo wrote:Thinking about it, this does make me wonder how much Marie is playing games... Did she REALLY have the vague predictions that "Faq will fall" and "Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's fall"? Or did she actually predict "Wanda will cause faq to fall" and has been leaving out the detail of wanda. If so it would show she is being a manipulative *boop*... it that is the case then it really makes me think that while fighting fate may be difficult it might not truly be as impossible as they think; they however are fatalists and thus are so deep in their belief that fate can not be fought that they will actively work to help fate along rather than search for an answer that might help them avoid it... in this case, if Marie did know that Wanda would bring about Faq's destruction, she could have helped Faq avoid that fate by making sure that Banhammer never allowed wanda into faq or croaked her (so she could not destroy faq from the outside); but instead, Marie lets wanda in to do what she does so that she can move on to her next stop to acquire her destined tool.
Having Wanda on the side would have been fine, if a waste of upkeep. Wanda wouldn't have told Stanley their position if Marie hadn't told her the prediction that she'd get a Tool. Or if she'd told Wanda any additional information that she may have predicted like 'that tool will be the pliers' or 'stanley will destroy faq' etc.
I'm fairly convinced Marie is destroying Faq deliberately to further her big conspiracy thing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:00 am

Mizzle wrote:I'm fairly convinced Marie is destroying Faq deliberately to further her big conspiracy thing.

I'm not sure that Marie is so "evil". Remember that she is still bound by Duty, so she can't just be dooming her Side at every turn freely.
It's entirely possible (in fact, probably LIKELY) that furthering her conspiracy and serving FAQ are not mutually exclusive like so many people seem to assume. Remember that as a Predictamancer, she sees things in the future that she won't share, and that we as readers will likely never know. All signs point to FAQ falling, no way to avoid it. So Marie pushes her side along the path of "least resistance" so that not only does her conspiracy progress, but she engineers a situation in which FAQ is able to be reborn hundreds of turns later. She knows it's impossible to SAVE FAQ as it is, so she does the next best thing.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby effataigus » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:25 am

Why indeed would the shockamancer choose this night of all nights to go for a pantie run?

Whatever the reason, Jillian might think of this as a boon. She doesn't seem one to feel overly violated by this, and, after the night she'd had, I'm guessing she'd love the legit excuse to beat the snot out of a caster.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Vambann » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:43 am

0beron wrote:
Mizzle wrote:I'm fairly convinced Marie is destroying Faq deliberately to further her big conspiracy thing.

I'm not sure that Marie is so "evil". Remember that she is still bound by Duty, so she can't just be dooming her Side at every turn freely. ...


What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:46 am

Vambann wrote: What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.

Duty is to the Side, not the Ruler. Example, Maggie deceives Stanley for the benefit of the side as a whole. So even if given such an order, there is a reasonable chance she would defy it.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Morni » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:50 am

0beron wrote:
Vambann wrote: What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.

Duty is to the Side, not the Ruler. Example, Maggie deceives Stanley for the benefit of the side as a whole. So even if given such an order, there is a reasonable chance she would defy it.


and Wanda refused an order.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F005.jpg
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby drachefly » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:00 pm

0beron wrote:
Vambann wrote: What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.

Duty is to the Side, not the Ruler. Example, Maggie deceives Stanley for the benefit of the side as a whole. So even if given such an order, there is a reasonable chance she would defy it.


Yet, such an order could weaken Duty to the point that taking such an action would be possible, and not dangerous.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby cheeseaholic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:27 pm

drachefly wrote:
0beron wrote:
Vambann wrote: What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.

Duty is to the Side, not the Ruler. Example, Maggie deceives Stanley for the benefit of the side as a whole. So even if given such an order, there is a reasonable chance she would defy it.


Yet, such an order could weaken Duty to the point that taking such an action would be possible, and not dangerous.


Not as far as we know. We really have no idea how Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience work, much less any other possible hidden stats (love?). For all we know she got lucky on her first attempt (or the DM cheated with fate) and she no longer has to make Duty or Loyalty roles for that cause. And using stats to justify all her actions in itself might be a mistake. Stats *can* affect a units actions, not must. She might be trying to save FAQ because she likes a philosophy kingdom, for instance, not because she's compelled to.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:33 pm

I would argue against that...Parson was actually incapable of ordering the Casters into the MK before the Volcano Uncroaking because his Duty compelled him to try every last idea he had before giving up. While I suppose there is a chance a unit could "roll a save against Duty", and there may be other things motivating her to try and save FAQ, Duty would certainly prevent her from destroying it intentionally.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby cheeseaholic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Parson was magically compelled by the summoning spell though.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F134.jpg

He also had his Duty maxed by the spell iirc. With different values of a stat it's a fairly safe assumption that having a different value has a stronger affect.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 034

Postby Dunbar » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:00 pm

I don't think Marie is playing games at all here. We don't know enough of the details of predictamancy, but if it works at all like foretelling does in all of human history (from the Oracle at Delphi to Harry Potter's Professor Trelawney), visions of the future don't play like a documentary that gives you all the details. I'm certain that her predictamancy did NOT tell her that Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's fall. If it did, she would have told Faq that their fall was imminent the moment Haffaton started getting close to Faq. She only knows that Faq will fall at some point and that Lady Firebaugh is involved. Her statement earlier that Haffaton would be the agent of Faq's fall was her extrapolating from the fact that Lady Firebaugh is a Haffaton caster.

In sum, her predictions as she states them to the court are her extrapolations of future events based on the facts she gets from Predictamancy combined with what she knows is going on in the world at the moment. She could tell the court that Lady Firebaugh is the one who will cause the fall of Faq, but what would be the point in that? It would only drive Jillian to try to go out and kill the caster first, and as all predictamancers believe trying to fight fate only makes your path harder. So she is hiding that specific information for a reason.

As to how Marie will behave when Wanda is a part of Faq, I think that's going to be very interesting.

Vambann wrote:
0beron wrote:
Mizzle wrote:I'm fairly convinced Marie is destroying Faq deliberately to further her big conspiracy thing.

I'm not sure that Marie is so "evil". Remember that she is still bound by Duty, so she can't just be dooming her Side at every turn freely. ...


What if King Banhammer ordered her to Predict a way to end all fighting in Erfworld? Where would her Duty lie then?
I can see that as the sort of thing Banhammer and the FAQ court would try to pull off.


I just think you are wrong about Marie here. I think she has seen via her prediction magic that Faq will fall. She believes that Fate cannot be changed and fighting it only makes things worse...now that belief might turn out to be incorrect, but she is not trying to cause the fall of Faq for some conspiratorial reason. She's trying to guide Faq along towards the path of least resistance to a Fate that is inevitable, and trying to concoct a plan with the least bloodshed (Faqs casters will flee, their units surrender, etc.).

As for predicting a way to end all fighting on Erf, I don't think predictions work that way. That's not a prediction, that's trying to design events to end up at a particular goal. Predictamancy shows future events, then you get to decide what path you take to get there. You are telling her to decide on the destination (a specific future event you want, in this case no fighting on Erf), then asking predictamancy to tell you the path. That's the exact opposite of what predictamancy does.

Now a counter to this might be wanting all of your magical attacks to land, as was done to great effect. But even that was just the predictamancer asking where the enemy units would be a few moments into the future, then attacking those locations. That's still just asking for information about a future event, then choosing how to act based on that.

You could ask "will there ever be a time when there is no more fighting on Erf," and then perhaps see a time when that is true, but depending on your wording it could just be a turn where there happens to be no fighting (still wars going on in the general sense but no battles on that particular turn). Or it could be that you see a future moment with true peace on Erf, but you would still have no idea when that is or how the world got to that point. You can only see glimpses of the future, you cannot see the path to get there.
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