Book 2 – Page 80

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Akkristor » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:34 am

Is it possible that the real Slately is just incapacitated down there?
Akkristor
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:08 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Whispri » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:13 am

Akkristor wrote:Is it possible that the real Slately is just incapacitated down there?

There are 'X's where his eyes should be, so...
Whispri
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 9:02 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Nnelg » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:46 am

multilis wrote:One real world computer game that is similar to Erfword is "Age of Wonders".

On earlier versions, there were some units that were nearly invincible in certain situations, eg flying units with ranged attack and units with physical immunity. As a result there were some situations where a single unit could defeat an entire powerful army that lacked a way to counter attack.

(Send in a flying archer and some mage heroes, the mages cast spells to wipe out the enemy archers then retreat, the single archer wipes out rest of units including super-strong ones without ranged attack)

Game was improved/bug fixed: for example most ranged flying units only have limited number of shots.

That may be case here, archons may only have a limited number of ranged shots so that a single archon can't wipe out a massive army that lacks ranged attackers in 1 turn. (We already see that archers have limited number of arrows and mages can only cast limited number of spells per turn)

I don't see that as an improvement. I see a game that has lost one of its tactical dimensions, discouraging strategic thought and lessening the impact of good planning. I'll admit for others this may be more enjoyable, but as a wargamer I revel in subtle complexity. In my mind the only extenuating circumstance is the fact that AoW's scale isn't conductive to this particular dimension.

However, where AoW taskforces usually consist of fewer than a couple dozen discrete quanta* of force, in Erfworld armies are with few exceptions made up of hundreds of quanta*, even if you don't consider the individual units comprising a stack of infantry as "discrete*". *(A "discrete quanta" in this case just means "the smallest 'unit' that can act independently of others, which unable to be split into smaller groupings.) I see no reason why the original state of affairs you described would be unbalanced here, where mixing in a few archers and/or flyers with an otherwise infantry force will not impair its ability to perform its primary function.

On an somewhat interesting tangent, AoW:SM is sadly the only game of the Fantasy TBS genre which I've had the pleasure to play myself. I'm coming at this from a wargamer's perspective, with my source material mainly historical. Although the underlying concepts of strategy involved are universal.
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
User avatar
Nnelg
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Internets the World of Webs

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby vintermann » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:06 am

Everyone here seems to have jumped on to the bandwagon that the most apparent interpretation (that Slately's clone was killed, and both original and clone were quite aware of who the original was) is wrong.

Sure, Lloyd looks worried, but he's looked worried the entire combat. Pierce the healomancer (who was by the king's side the whole time, and probably has abilities to tell the real from the copy) does not look worried at all.

This is wishful thinking from fans who dislike Slately and want to see him dead. But I think he'll last far longer than more popular units - in particular, I think he will have to give up his plan to promote Tramennis (due to Tramennis croaking). He'll have to keep playing the super-king he thinks he should have been.

Also, Wanda is not going to be able to return to Spacerock in a competent state. The portal will either close (maybe from Slately using the reward money to switch capitals) preventing her return, or she will be so shocked by Ossomer's turning that she'll be rendered incapable of decrypting for a while. If I am wrong about that, and we get a decrypted clone Slately and Tramennis, the plotlines will get messy (not quite post-time travel Elfquest messy, but approaching). I don't think the author will go that way.
User avatar
vintermann
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 5:01 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:14 am

RichMan wrote:Archon captured. But whole side about to disband because the king is a magic effect. Maybe Charlie could do the gate hustle himself through the magic kingdom and pick up the captive. Except pretty much all the casters with a thing against Charlie are right at the gate in the magic kingdom.


Even without the crowd, when he tries to bring the captive BACK, she'd croak and dust.
User avatar
drachefly
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:17 am

drachefly wrote:Even without the crowd, when he tries to bring the captive BACK [through the MK], she'd croak and dust.

I've actually been wondering about that myself....because Archons are lesser casters, could they pass through a Portal safely? Because I seriously doubt Charlie will venture into the MK, especially in these circumstances (and of course, assuming he even is a Caster, or stupid-worlder) but if any Decrypted Archons survive this battle I wonder if Parson will try this...
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby multilis » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:28 am

"I see no reason why the original state of affairs you described would be unbalanced here, where mixing in a few archers and/or flyers with an otherwise infantry force will not impair its ability to perform its primary function."

The enemy can simply pick off the archers first, then every other unit on battlefield retreats except the ranged archer. The enemy air units at end of turn can often sit in mountain or over water so other side can't attack them on their turn with archers.

I found it ruined game, especially against AI, too easy... The game still has ranged power very strong (perhaps too strong), but you have to attack turn after turn to slowly weaken a vast army with a single unit. They also made some more attacks able to hurt air units: entangle, strangle, double gravity spell... it was simply too powerful to send a stack of only ranged units on hit and run, to run you moved to hard to attack square like water or mountain.

...

"wishful thinking from fans who dislike Slately and want to see him dead" - Slately feels his son can save side. He says "feels to be alive" then we have shot of dead Stately, suggesting irony.

I have no problem with Stately, he is sort of like Stanley. But story to me seems to be rushing to his end, there would be no hurry to make an heir/collect the reward if he lived past end of this turn. (Heir only matters if Stately dies or splits off a side)

...

Not just Jetstone, but TV and Parson have possibility of new leader. In Parson's case, he is trying and get to a different capital site, and in book 1 he ended it with wanting to be a "Player" rather than a "pawn". Now i think the chapter is about "various sects" rather than "raining men", which suggests new leaders, and splitting of sides.
multilis
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:41 am

vintermann wrote:Everyone here seems to have jumped on to the bandwagon that the most apparent interpretation (that Slately's clone was killed, and both original and clone were quite aware of who the original was) is wrong.
Sure, Lloyd looks worried, but he's looked worried the entire combat. Pierce the healomancer (who was by the king's side the whole time, and probably has abilities to tell the real from the copy) does not look worried at all.

That's because, from a dramatic tension point of view, there's no reason why LLoyd and Ace would be worried if the CLONE was rushing ahead to attack, and the original was already copied.
It also doesn't explain what the REGEDIT action is, if it isn't LLoyd making a backup.

It's much more exciting if Slatey gets duplicated moments before he dies. If there was never any danger to the original Slately, who cares what happens to the clone?
User avatar
MarbitChow
 
Posts: 2510
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Kalak » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:48 pm

Since people were talking about missing and probability:

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_41
"You ever face one?" said Pierce. Then he held up his free hand and shook his head to wave off an answer Ace was forming. "Lemme rephrase that. You ever face three or four Archons working together? They're nuts. Daze you with Foolamancy, shock your commanders, mess with your mind... Maybe they can't do that much right now but their Foolamancy alone makes them hard to hit. We'd waste a lot of juice and arrows before we could shoot down that many."
User avatar
Kalak
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Thoke » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:33 pm

At least Slately can see through foolamancy... and is immune to thinkamancy too.
Thoke
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Jay » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:59 pm

vintermann wrote:Everyone here seems to have jumped on to the bandwagon that the most apparent interpretation (that Slately's clone was killed, and both original and clone were quite aware of who the original was) is wrong.

Sure, Lloyd looks worried, but he's looked worried the entire combat. Pierce the healomancer (who was by the king's side the whole time, and probably has abilities to tell the real from the copy) does not look worried at all.

This is wishful thinking from fans who dislike Slately and want to see him dead. But I think he'll last far longer than more popular units - in particular, I think he will have to give up his plan to promote Tramennis (due to Tramennis croaking). He'll have to keep playing the super-king he thinks he should have been.

No, he's totally dead.

Read the comic page over again carefully. The dittomancer is yelling at the king to wait, he's not ready. The king flies up and engages the archons. The archons are looking at him, fighting him, the whole time (while Lloyd is still chanting). There's never any confusion where they see two kings. They kill the king who flew up to them. Then the "new king" suddenly kills an archon from a completely different location. There was no foolamancy to veil things.. this was the king dying, and a double popping up nearby.

And to suggest that the hints about how good it is to finally be alive, followed by that final image, are somehow a double-fakeout rather than a normal fakeout.. ? A bit much for me.
Jay
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:02 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Nnelg » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:01 pm

multilis wrote:The enemy can simply pick off the archers first, then every other unit on battlefield retreats except the ranged archer. The enemy air units at end of
turn can often sit in mountain or over water so other side can't attack them on their turn with archers.

Of course they can do that, that's what I'd try to do in that situation; but of course there are counters to that strategy as well. For instance, it'd be difficult to kill all the archers if they were spread out more as apposed to in one or two lumps, especially if for every archer there are two dozen melee units that will get in the way. Even if the defending archers don't have enough firepower to destroy the attacking flyers, they only need to ward them off the column long enough for it to reach its target.

multilis wrote:I found it ruined game, especially against AI, too easy... The game still has ranged power very strong (perhaps too strong), but you have to attack turn after turn to slowly weaken a vast army with a single unit. They also made some more attacks able to hurt air units: entangle, strangle, double gravity spell... it was simply too powerful to send a stack of only ranged units on hit and run, to run you moved to hard to attack square like water or mountain.

Only because the AI lacks the wit to determine the proper counter-measure and enact it. If I was the defender, I would bring up some hard and fast fliers from my reserve (and if I didn't remember to bring any, I most certainly would next time). They'd seek out and kill your group of flyers before they could heal from the wounds my archers dealt them -wait. Why does this sound so familiar?... ;)


Oh, and about ranged units being overpowered? You just need to adjust your strategy. At the very least pit ranged against ranged so you can be on even footing.
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
User avatar
Nnelg
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Internets the World of Webs

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby j_scheibel » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:15 pm

So, if it turns out the king is dead and the copy escapes to a nearby hex the thought goes something like this. Is the copy such a good copy that he is for all practical purposes the king in lieu of the real king? so much so that he is what is keeping the side alive. And if he is then informed that he is in fact the copy and will cease to exist at end of turn, would he ever end turn? Not only would he die but the side as a whole would be gone without an heir. Is there a game mechanic in erf world that forces end of turn naturally? (I dont recall one)

It actually begs the question why would any side ever end turn if they knew they were dead the next turn.
j_scheibel
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:43 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby fractal » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:47 am

Nnelg wrote:Oh, and about ranged units being overpowered? You just need to adjust your strategy. At the very least pit ranged against ranged so you can be on even footing.
I don't know the game he's talking about, but if the best answer to ranged units is "more ranged units" then I think it's safe to say that they are overpowered.
fractal
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:46 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Sixty » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:10 am

Considering a side decides when to end turn and that sides usually end on an opponent's turn (when they get invaded/ruler croaked) we have an unusual situation where the side whose turn it is could be wiped out on their own turn. Something that has rarely, if ever, happened before one would be fairly safe to say. If the ruler who decides when the turn is over dies before he can end the turn... Does the turn never end? I would think there is a natural maximum to a turn's length and that a ruler can at best decide to end it early (otherwise like someone mentioned why would any side that knows they're not gonna win ever end their turn? Starvation from no popped rations?)
User avatar
Sixty
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:03 am
Location: Salisbury, Maryland

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:15 am

j_scheibel wrote:It actually begs the question why would any side ever end turn if they knew they were dead the next turn.

We know from the summer updates that time is relative in the hexes. If a turn never ends, only the units in the same hex as the ruler would perceive time stretching on infinitely. In that hex only, no wounds would ever heal, no juice would ever be restored, no new rations would ever pop. No one outside that hex would see anything amiss. Boredom and starvation eventually set in. First the mounts are eaten (but not nicely harvested - there's no next turn for the rations to pop in on), but when that runs out, cannibalism is next. Since nothing changes, tempers flare and fights break out. Units are now in continuous agony, leading to even more angry outburst and insane rages.

If you're going to die anyway, wouldn't you prefer a quick, clean death over a slow, lingering, painful, insanity-ridden death?
User avatar
MarbitChow
 
Posts: 2510
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Kyrt » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:46 am

vintermann wrote:Everyone here seems to have jumped on to the bandwagon that the most apparent interpretation (that Slately's clone was killed, and both original and clone were quite aware of who the original was) is wrong.


That's largely because thats NOT the most apparent interpretation. Slately hadn't been cloned when he started the attack so the King who died was the original.

So the question is....did the spell also allow them to swap places? Or does the clone become real if the original dies? Both options seem unlikely. And Slatleys comment here - This is what it means to be alive - as well as the focus on dead Kingy and Lloyds expression and apparent unhappiness at his Kings survival really don't bode well.

Sure, Lloyd looks worried, but he's looked worried the entire combat. Pierce the healomancer (who was by the king's side the whole time, and probably has abilities to tell the real from the copy) does not look worried at all.


Which could just mean that - like Ace - he hasn't realised. The one caster who would know for certain ISN'T happy, he isn't celebrating.

This is wishful thinking from fans who dislike Slately and want to see him dead.


I like Slately. Hes grown on me. I prefer Tramennis. But the writings on the wall....Slately is very likely dead.

But I think he'll last far longer than more popular units - in particular, I think he will have to give up his plan to promote Tramennis (due to Tramennis croaking). He'll have to keep playing the super-king he thinks he should have been.


My own feeling is that Jetstones only hope is for Tram to be rescued/escape and promoted. Right now, he is incapacitated and in a garrison that appears likely to fall very soon. But GK has a fairly powerful force on the ground, including dwagons. And many are still expecting Parson to enter the city from the MK.

Also, Wanda is not going to be able to return to Spacerock in a competent state. The portal will either close (maybe from Slately using the reward money to switch capitals) preventing her return, or she will be so shocked by Ossomer's turning that she'll be rendered incapable of decrypting for a while.


Both seem unlikely. And JS needs the cash to promote Tram.
Kyrt
YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby SteveMB » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:49 am

Jay wrote:And to suggest that the hints about how good it is to finally be alive, followed by that final image, are somehow a double-fakeout rather than a normal fakeout.. ? A bit much for me.

The possibility of a narrative trap-trap occurred to me, but I don't think it's likely. For one thing, if it was Fauxley who just got croaked, it doesn't seem to really signify anything but another iteration on the theme that Erfworlders are just small-t tools to an end.

Sixty wrote:Considering a side decides when to end turn and that sides usually end on an opponent's turn (when they get invaded/ruler croaked) we have an unusual situation where the side whose turn it is could be wiped out on their own turn. Something that has rarely, if ever, happened before one would be fairly safe to say. If the ruler who decides when the turn is over dies before he can end the turn... Does the turn never end? I would think there is a natural maximum to a turn's length and that a ruler can at best decide to end it early (otherwise like someone mentioned why would any side that knows they're not gonna win ever end their turn? Starvation from no popped rations?)

So, a much harsher in-universe analog of everybody giving you crap for holding up the game? :)
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
User avatar
SteveMB
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Raza » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:49 am

splintermute wrote:Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK - at the time they were still Charlie's units, and he's linked to them in some way. If Wanda being in the MK cuts them off from the pliers' influence, this might be the first battle they've been in without an artifact bonus, and Cubbins' initial attack may have taken out archons with leadership.

Maybe. Artifact bonuses are horribly unexplained at this point. I'd be moderately surprised if they worked without the artifact in the stack, though - especially considering they do work for an unattuned artifact in the stack. They'd need two seperate mechanisms to do that.

Still, Charlie can link with casters from a distance through the dish, he might be able to lead stacks from a distance too.

splintermute wrote:Also, at that stage in tBfGK, Stanley had taken the majority of the air force, and they had few air defenses left.

GJC wrote:The force they were up against during TBFGK totalled 3 unipegataurs, 3 riders, 1 archon and a caster.

In this battle, they're up against a lot more than that.

They also had to engage at a much closer range in order to escape the archer bombardement, and had used up quite a bit of juice so far.

To take GK, they'd have to capture both airspace and the garrison. They'd need to land and engage the ground troops before it'd be over. Flyers and air defenses only substitute the outer walls, defense wise.
User avatar
Raza
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 9:03 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Lamech » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:54 am

j_scheibel wrote:It actually begs the question why would any side ever end turn if they knew they were dead the next turn.

A day is 24 hours within a hex. I suppose clever use of realative time could extend how many hours a king got by hex shuffling; maybe you could even build some defensive structures and traps by hand, or get a big dose of extra training via hex shuffling. However, there is still only a limited amount of time you'll be able to eek out.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Thecommander236 and 6 guests