Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

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Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby balder » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:52 pm

New One is up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:02 pm

Firstly, I love the detail of the card game, thanks Rob that sounds like fun to play!!!

As for the actual plot...I'm quite confused! Firstly, even undefended, WHY in the Titan's Toilet would Jillian care about a level 2 city?! It's not a capital, aaaand what's more, it belongs to Haffaton! Steer clear! Then add to that the fact you know they have a Florist, so "undefended" may not be a problem for them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby wrecan » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:31 pm

I think Jillian hopes that Haffaton has spread itself too thin, to again push her idea of destroying Haffaton, rather than fleeing it. If she spots more undefended cities, she can make the pitch that Haffaton is a paper tiger.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Justyn » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:35 pm

0beron wrote:Firstly, I love the detail of the card game, thanks Rob that sounds like fun to play!!!

As for the actual plot...I'm quite confused! Firstly, even undefended, WHY in the Titan's Toilet would Jillian care about a level 2 city?! It's not a capital, aaaand what's more, it belongs to Haffaton! Steer clear! Then add to that the fact you know they have a Florist, so "undefended" may not be a problem for them.


So they can raze it, I'd assume.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:44 pm

Justyn wrote:So they can raze it, I'd assume.

Yeah I was already figuring her motivation would be to raze it to boost her treasury and buy herself more time to search....but still....cummon Jillian please don't be that dumb :( The last thing she needs is for Haffaton to notice there is someone in that specific area who can hurt them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Whispri » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:17 am

An abandoned frontier City? Well that's just too good to be true.

And let's not forget what happened the last time someone had a run in with an apparently weakly defended Haffaton City...
Last edited by Whispri on Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Saladman » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:35 am

0beron wrote:
Justyn wrote:So they can raze it, I'd assume.

Yeah I was already figuring her motivation would be to raze it to boost her treasury and buy herself more time to search....but still....cummon Jillian please don't be that dumb :( The last thing she needs is for Haffaton to notice there is someone in that specific area who can hurt them.


They're fourteen turns out of Faq and they've seen closer local sides, so this doesn't reveal Faq itself to Haffaton, just some random mercenaries. It does risk Jillian and her force, but Jillian's expecting disband orders in about a dozen turns if nothing changes, so razing a level 2 starts to look very attractive.

Whispri wrote:An abandoned frontier City? Well that's just too good to be true.


Probably. And yet, that would explain how Haffaton's breaking Erf's economic barrier of diminishing returns: just leave your non-core cities undefended and count on whatever forces are expanding your borders to eliminate incursion groups. The weakness is obvious, but its not a bad play for pre-Parson native Erfworlders. Especially with a competent Florist to deal with anyone who does make it through.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Whispri » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:39 am

The thing is, leaving frontier Cities defenceless instead of interior Cities just invites attack. And Haffaton will know this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Saladman » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:48 am

Is it even literally frontier though? Jillian's still trying to find Haffaton's true borders.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Lamech » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:51 am

Yeah the idea would be some sort of interception force on the boarders, minor cities undefended, and important points (capital, cities that produce important unit types, and large scale hand built farms/mines) defended as well. So an undefended city makes sense. Also Haffaton would want to use upkeep efficient units (uncroaked), but wouldn't heavy use of boosting items make sense as well?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby StClair » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 am

Mal: TRAAAAAP.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby name lips » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:05 am

This area was closer to Haffaton territory than Faq was. It might even be Haffaton territory.

Wait a sec...

Does this mean they don't know for sure if they're in somebody's territory?

Some games have "borders" that extend out from the cities. It's very obvious when you cross a border, and you always know that you're in enemy territory, even if there are no enemy units around to spot you.

Looks like Erfworld doesn't work like that. So I'm guessing your "territory" is just the area that you can control and defend. So she might run into an undefended city, but not realize that it isn't a border city at all. For all she knows if she flies past it, she could be flying straight into the heart of Haffaton territory. There's no reason to assume the territory is roundish, it could be long and skinny, or egg shaped, or have intersections like a capital H, or have a few satellite cities sticking out like spokes. If you there aren't any borders for units to see when they cross, then you just don't know. Did you miss a city a few hexes off to your left? Are you still following the "border?" Are you getting deeper into Haffiton territory, or still skirting the edge?

To a certain extent, traveling and mapping as you go will eventually show you the extent of a kingdom, even if all you can do is mark terrain and city locations. At some point, you'll stop seeing Haffaton cities and units, so you must have left their territory. But it's hard to be thorough at the same time as you're trying not to be spotted.

...

This "undefended" city is almost certainly a trap. Well, if it wasn't interesting story-wise, we can safely assume it wouldn't have been mentioned, so we might know more than Jillian right now. If there are no units in the city, there will be nobody to report back to the Overlord telling him what side razed the city. Every now and then you do get lucky, especially if they don't think there are any hostile units around. The city might only be undefended for a turn or two, while a replacement unit pops or something. It's not unreasonable for Jillian to think this is an opportunity -- she's a mercenary, she lives by grabbing opportunities that pop up.

But there are hints that Haffaton might know they're around. They've spoken to other sides, which for all we know would sell scouting information to Haffaton. Most significantly, they've spotted Charlescomm units, who we KNOW sell scouting information. They also mentioned looting a Haffaton orchard for rations. A very observant Overlord might know that something is out there, and might be willing to set up a little trap just to see what it is.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:31 am

WRECD = Wrecked. Or am I the only one who had to think about that?

name lips wrote:Does this mean they don't know for sure if they're in somebody's territory?


Good point, they don't seem to know do they.

Some games have "borders" that extend out from the cities. It's very obvious when you cross a border, and you always know that you're in enemy territory, even if there are no enemy units around to spot you.


Some games don't have borders until you establish some kind of relation (even bad ones) with a side. Faq has no diplomatic relations at all, they're a completely hidden side. So with out regular calls or hat messages, even threatening ones, Faq really might not know where anyone's territory is.

Everyone is blind to Faq, but that makes Faq blind to everyone too. Interesting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Castamir » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:05 am

Erfworld is very closely based on Warlords, and you don't have borders there. You own units and cities, everything else is not tied to any side. You can simply stroll into enemy terrain like Jillian does. And you can't afford to have non-screen defenses in every interior city, although it's always a good idea to leave something there because of bats (so a single high-move shit unit can't capture half of your side).

Erfworld cares only about "battlespace": being able to reach an enemy unit within your move, which blocks concurrent turns between these two sides.

Tinking about implementing it in a real game, I see a problem:
battlespace should happen whenever, if you spent all your move going towards the enemy unit, it would be able to reach you on its turn (as that's when ordering matters). Yet Erfworld seems to care only about your move range.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:46 am

name lips wrote:This "undefended" city is almost certainly a trap. Well, if it wasn't interesting story-wise, we can safely assume it wouldn't have been mentioned, so we might know more than Jillian right now. If there are no units in the city, there will be nobody to report back to the Overlord telling him what side razed the city. Every now and then you do get lucky, especially if they don't think there are any hostile units around. The city might only be undefended for a turn or two, while a replacement unit pops or something. It's not unreasonable for Jillian to think this is an opportunity -- she's a mercenary, she lives by grabbing opportunities that pop up.

But there are hints that Haffaton might know they're around. They've spoken to other sides, which for all we know would sell scouting information to Haffaton. Most significantly, they've spotted Charlescomm units, who we KNOW sell scouting information. They also mentioned looting a Haffaton orchard for rations. A very observant Overlord might know that something is out there, and might be willing to set up a little trap just to see what it is.


+1 to it being a trap. Even if you think you don't have nearby enemies, you don't want to leave a city empty and risk a random barbarian group spawning nearby and just razing it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:55 am

Castamir wrote:Tinking about implementing it in a real game, I see a problem:
battlespace should happen whenever, if you spent all your move going towards the enemy unit, it would be able to reach you on its turn (as that's when ordering matters). Yet Erfworld seems to care only about your move range.

It's even more complicated than that. Battlespace only happens when you WILL encounter an enemy unit, based on both your move and the enemy's move in the future. If both units pass within 2 hexes of each other, but don't meet up or see each other, there's no battlespace.

It takes something like Stanley's Tricaster Table to make certain that any enemy moving into range triggers your battlespace; otherwise, they could sneak right up to the capital without alerting the other side, and the other side might get no warning until the units actually attack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:33 am

So it can be assumed then that you can choose to not produce units? I suppose they could simply send everyone off whenever they're made, but it seems more likely the city is producing money or rations or something.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Frosted » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:06 pm

The thing I'm most curious about is that the "suits" of cards on Erfworld are.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Glome » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:55 pm

Frosted wrote:The thing I'm most curious about is that the "suits" of cards on Erfworld are.


I'm going to guess the four known arkentools.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Kalak » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Or, this level 2 city is a capital site, largely undefended, because all of their defense is out at the border cities. Maybe Haffaton doesn't anticipate anyone getting inside their borders.

But, considering all the capital sites we've seen, they are pretty grandiose. Guess it can't be that, then.
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