Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:14 pm

Well said Lamma, that's what I was thinking but didn't say so clearly. It's not an intentional trap, but it'll hurt just as well as one.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Nnelg » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:35 pm

kagato23 wrote:
Morni wrote:If Jillian wanted some casters, she could probably make a call to the old FAQ caster that escape. We know that Stanley got only 2 of the bunch they had.

This assumes they lived. We know wanda "sladyed them at the court"

We know it didn't go down like Banhammer thought it would. We know Jillian wasn't there, so we don't know if she even knows about survivors. And if so, she seems disinclined to like predictability. Or even anyone in the court who's name isn't Wanda or Jack

We know that at least Faq's predictamancer survived, so it's plausible that others have as well. However, I don't think Jillian considered the possibility that any of them survived save for Jack and Wanda; nor that if she did she would want any of them on her side (remember, she wasn't on good terms with most of them before Faq fell).

If she was really desperate for casters though, she could probably hire some from the MK; although the fact that she hasn't tells me she has a reason why not to. My guess would be that it's prohibitively expensive to do so, and she's not that desperate yet.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby onlyme » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:45 am

Nnelg wrote:If she was really desperate for casters though, she could probably hire some from the MK; although the fact that she hasn't tells me she has a reason why not to. My guess would be that it's prohibitively expensive to do so, and she's not that desperate yet.


Well, she hired a caster (the turnamancer) from the MK. We were also told she got the money for that from Charly. Transilvito knew about that caster but not about Charly, so they either think she could pay that alone or were persuaded that she made a very good deal and the caster is very cheap.

So she got all the casters she wants and could afford with exception of Wanda and Jack, both of which she offered to turn to her. But I guess that is mostly because of personal reasons. (Though non-hired (i.e. low cost) high-level (i.e. instantly useable) useable-in-fighting casters is also likely something she wants, while hired casters willing to fight for you will be expensive, popped casters are too low level to be useable directly (she is impatient with troups, a caster would likely take a lot longer to be useable) and the ones perhaps escaped from old FAQ to the MK are hardly so directly fight related as sword swinging Jillian would view as useable).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Lamech » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:20 am

Nnelg wrote:We know that at least Faq's predictamancer survived, so it's plausible that others have as well. However, I don't think Jillian considered the possibility that any of them survived save for Jack and Wanda; nor that if she did she would want any of them on her side (remember, she wasn't on good terms with most of them before Faq fell).
Its also possible they aren't willing to join her. Remember that lookamancer who was so opposed to killing? He's not going to join up with Jillian since she'll just order him into combat. Its probably similar for several other of the casters. Her predictamancer obviously cares to much about her own plots. Worse, all the casters may have been drawn in by the peace on Erf plot of the hippymancers... in fact, do we know who the lookamancer in the summon perfect warlord spell was? If we don't...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Kalak » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Lamech wrote:
Nnelg wrote:We know that at least Faq's predictamancer survived, so it's plausible that others have as well. However, I don't think Jillian considered the possibility that any of them survived save for Jack and Wanda; nor that if she did she would want any of them on her side (remember, she wasn't on good terms with most of them before Faq fell).
Its also possible they aren't willing to join her. Remember that lookamancer who was so opposed to killing? He's not going to join up with Jillian since she'll just order him into combat. Its probably similar for several other of the casters. Her predictamancer obviously cares to much about her own plots. Worse, all the casters may have been drawn in by the peace on Erf plot of the hippymancers... in fact, do we know who the lookamancer in the summon perfect warlord spell was? If we don't...


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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Whispri » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:59 pm

Housellama wrote:I don't think this is an intentional trap.

I think that Haffaton preparing a random low level city with a trap is not plausible. The trap at Kiloton was very carefully baited and specifically prepared for Goodminton. Do I think it's plausible that it's going to get them in a heap of trouble? The laws of narrative practically demand that it does.

I don't think it's Wanda. I think that Wanda will be a result of whatever is about to happen.

You're overestimating the amount of effort that's required for this to be a trap. All Haffaton need is forewarning from scouts (or the Battlespace thing if whoever's in charge is sufficiently paranoid) and a belief in the ability of the City's defenders to take Jillian's band if they attack. After that it's just a matter of moving the troops into buildings or underground where they're out of sight and ready to strike.

The garrison could be too weak to withstand Faq's onslaught and this could still be a trap, intended to sell the defenders lives as dearly as possible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Housellama » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:25 pm

Whispri wrote:
Housellama wrote:I don't think this is an intentional trap.

I think that Haffaton preparing a random low level city with a trap is not plausible. The trap at Kiloton was very carefully baited and specifically prepared for Goodminton. Do I think it's plausible that it's going to get them in a heap of trouble? The laws of narrative practically demand that it does.

I don't think it's Wanda. I think that Wanda will be a result of whatever is about to happen.

You're overestimating the amount of effort that's required for this to be a trap. All Haffaton need is forewarning from scouts (or the Battlespace thing if whoever's in charge is sufficiently paranoid) and a belief in the ability of the City's defenders to take Jillian's band if they attack. After that it's just a matter of moving the troops into buildings or underground where they're out of sight and ready to strike.

The garrison could be too weak to withstand Faq's onslaught and this could still be a trap, intended to sell the defenders lives as dearly as possible.


Could it be a trap? Yes. But I think making it a trap would stretch credibility. He doesn't need it to be an intentional trap to create drama. Personally if it was an engineered trap, I would be a little disappointed.

Edit: It's not the effort involved on Haffaton's part that make me skeptical. It's the justification. Yes, it would be easy enough to stash a Hippymancer in the city to stall them while units moved up to flank, but why? What purpose does it serve? Sure, maybe they'd been watching the group, but they would have had to be using a Lookamancer to do so, otherwise it would have triggered a battlespace. Even if they were watching, why trap a measly Level 2 city? If they had time to prepare, they could have prepared a much better trap. The trap at Kiloton was sprung for the specific purpose of negotiation. Had they wanted to slaughter Goodminton's forces, they could have done it easily without resorting to letting the enemy into the city. If they wanted to parley with this group, they could have just flown up and said hi. So again, why would Haffaton bother setting up a trap in a random level 2, 14 turns out from Faq?
Last edited by Housellama on Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Morni » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:31 pm

Maybe Jillian will capture Wanda that was bringing "fresh" troop to town.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Kalak » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:24 pm

All of this is moot, because the next strip is going to be Parson and the Portal. Then we'll completely forget about all this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:48 am

^^^ Bingo! At least, on the issue of comic subject. I think we haven't forgotten Haffaton.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Nnelg » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:28 am

drachefly wrote:^^^ Bingo! At least, on the issue of comic subject. I think we haven't forgotten Haffaton.

Well, in recent history the discussion for the text update has continued well after the comic, but I suppose the sudden shift in focus may affect things. We'll see...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:30 am

...not that this has stopped us before lol, but I think the Haffaton "trap" has been talked-out, we've said pretty much all there is to say about the different possibilities of what awaits Jillian in that city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Whispri » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:20 pm

Housellama wrote:Could it be a trap? Yes. But I think making it a trap would stretch credibility. He doesn't need it to be an intentional trap to create drama. Personally if it was an engineered trap, I would be a little disappointed.

Edit: It's not the effort involved on Haffaton's part that make me skeptical. It's the justification. Yes, it would be easy enough to stash a Hippymancer in the city to stall them while units moved up to flank, but why? What purpose does it serve? Sure, maybe they'd been watching the group, but they would have had to be using a Lookamancer to do so, otherwise it would have triggered a battlespace. Even if they were watching, why trap a measly Level 2 city? If they had time to prepare, they could have prepared a much better trap. The trap at Kiloton was sprung for the specific purpose of negotiation. Had they wanted to slaughter Goodminton's forces, they could have done it easily without resorting to letting the enemy into the city. If they wanted to parley with this group, they could have just flown up and said hi. So again, why would Haffaton bother setting up a trap in a random level 2, 14 turns out from Faq?

Jillian has a long sad history of biting off more than she can chew. It's just something she does.

You want Justification? There are just three hexes between the hex they started Turn in and a Haffaton City. Even if Haffaton haven't heard about the contract she's taken out of them, the WRECD will still look like an incoming attack. After that, if the Garrison is strong, they'd want to deal with Jillian here before she finds a weaker City. While if the Garrison is weak, a trap still gives them a chance to hurt the enemy.

As for why here, why not here? This watery region would be a pretty good place for a Side like Jillian's to dig in, mark that. It's the City Jillian's flown to. And being spotted this day is still warning enough. That said, if merely being spotted by a scout could trigger Battlespace, Faq wouldn't be able to hide as Battlespace would be triggered everytime they watched a scout fly over one of their Cities and it would give them away. As for the question of 'why not just walk up to the WRECD and zot them?', only so much of a Garrison force is mobile and the WRECD is flying above a lake. As for talking, well why not do so from a position of strength and find out Jillian's intentions first?

One last thing, while I've been talking in terms of local forces dealing with a minor problem, it shouldn't be forgotten that Jillian is the mysterious 'Lady Warlord' who was caught infiltrating Haffaton territory in force, obviously serves a Capital Side but refused to give any details, implied serving Charlie despite being his rival and is now scouting the outskirts of Haffaton's Domain. And Lord Sidehug did say that Haffaton had often found the very secretive to be threats in the past. So Jillian could have attracted high level attention.

What would be scary though, is if Wanda or someone left this City for Jillian as a gift, the way Olive left clothes and things lying around for Wanda to find.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Housellama » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:05 pm

Whispri wrote:
Housellama wrote:Edit: It's not the effort involved on Haffaton's part that make me skeptical. It's the justification. So again, why would Haffaton bother setting up a trap in a random level 2, 14 turns out from Faq?

Jillian has a long sad history of biting off more than she can chew. It's just something she does.

You want Justification? There are just three hexes between the hex they started Turn in and a Haffaton City. Even if Haffaton haven't heard about the contract she's taken out of them, the WRECD will still look like an incoming attack. After that, if the Garrison is strong, they'd want to deal with Jillian here before she finds a weaker City. While if the Garrison is weak, a trap still gives them a chance to hurt the enemy.

As for why here, why not here? This watery region would be a pretty good place for a Side like Jillian's to dig in, mark that. It's the City Jillian's flown to. And being spotted this day is still warning enough. That said, if merely being spotted by a scout could trigger Battlespace, Faq wouldn't be able to hide as Battlespace would be triggered everytime they watched a scout fly over one of their Cities and it would give them away. As for the question of 'why not just walk up to the WRECD and zot them?', only so much of a Garrison force is mobile and the WRECD is flying above a lake. As for talking, well why not do so from a position of strength and find out Jillian's intentions first?

One last thing, while I've been talking in terms of local forces dealing with a minor problem, it shouldn't be forgotten that Jillian is the mysterious 'Lady Warlord' who was caught infiltrating Haffaton territory in force, obviously serves a Capital Side but refused to give any details, implied serving Charlie despite being his rival and is now scouting the outskirts of Haffaton's Domain. And Lord Sidehug did say that Haffaton had often found the very secretive to be threats in the past. So Jillian could have attracted high level attention.

What would be scary though, is if Wanda or someone left this City for Jillian as a gift, the way Olive left clothes and things lying around for Wanda to find.


I don't understand where you're getting a lot of this. As far as we know, Haffaton doesn't even know that they are there. They have had no encounters with scouts and have not entered any battlespaces since they left Faq 14 turns ago. They didn't encounter anyone on the first half of the day, which means that the battlespace likely triggered based on what WRECD did and not what Haffaton or perhaps another random side did.

Which poses the question: Why would Haffaton randomly trap a Level 2 city in the middle of Swamp Nowhere when they most likely have absolutely no idea anyone was anywhere near there? Sure, maybe there is a bigger garrison there than is visible, but again, it's a Level 2 out in the middle of a booping marsh. Why would anyone stick anything out there if they didn't have to? It's not a Capital site. If it was, the scout probably would have said so. So what reason is there to do anything with this podunk little burg surrounded by wetlands?

If Haffaton has been watching them the whole time, that's a little too deus ex machina for me. They are a hidden task force from a hidden side that's very good at staying hidden. That Haffaton now magically knows that they are there is a little ridiculous. It makes much more narrative sense to have Jillian make a shortsighted decision (like, for example, razing a Level 2 city when they don't need to right now) and have it blow up in her face. Why have someone else hit the characters with the Plot Club when you can have the characters do it to themselves?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Nnelg » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:55 am

While I agree it is extraordinarily unlikely that the city's been trapped specifically for the WRECD, I think it's possible that Haffaton's put traps on all their low-level cities as a general precautionary measure. It'd increase overall security without increasing upkeep costs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:28 am

Nnelg wrote:While I agree it is extraordinarily unlikely that the city's been trapped specifically for the WRECD, I think it's possible that Haffaton's put traps on all their low-level cities as a general precautionary measure.

Aaaaaaand how do you propose they'd do that? When we say "trap" we're referring to Olive's ability to stop combat (and in this case, call reinforcements to attack the otherwise stronger enemy). So they can't just "trap" every single city, they only have one Olive. (And I seriously doubt High Elves are as powerful as her)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby drachefly » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:41 am

There are dirtamancy traps and such. Wire all over the place to make landing from the air hurt a lot, and it's thin enough not to be obvious until you're committed to landing.

Not that that's what's going to happen, but I could see it. Make them sting. Soften them up for your rapid response team.

Also, I didn't say we'd keep talking about this update, but merely that Haffaton is not forgotten.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Nnelg » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:54 pm

0beron wrote:
Nnelg wrote:While I agree it is extraordinarily unlikely that the city's been trapped specifically for the WRECD, I think it's possible that Haffaton's put traps on all their low-level cities as a general precautionary measure.

Aaaaaaand how do you propose they'd do that? When we say "trap" we're referring to Olive's ability to stop combat (and in this case, call reinforcements to attack the otherwise stronger enemy). So they can't just "trap" every single city, they only have one Olive. (And I seriously doubt High Elves are as powerful as her)

drachefly wrote:There are dirtamancy traps and such. Wire all over the place to make landing from the air hurt a lot, and it's thin enough not to be obvious until you're committed to landing.

Not that that's what's going to happen, but I could see it. Make them sting. Soften them up for your rapid response team.

Also, I didn't say we'd keep talking about this update, but merely that Haffaton is not forgotten.

Not that kind of trap. All that's necessary is something that'll raise the alarm and mire up the attackers for a turn, and a rapid response force within 1 turn's range of this and as many as a dozen other 'trapped' minor cities.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby Whispri » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:10 pm

Housellama wrote:I don't understand where you're getting a lot of this. As far as we know, Haffaton doesn't even know that they are there. They have had no encounters with scouts and have not entered any battlespaces since they left Faq 14 turns ago. They didn't encounter anyone on the first half of the day, which means that the battlespace likely triggered based on what WRECD did and not what Haffaton or perhaps another random side did.

Which poses the question: Why would Haffaton randomly trap a Level 2 city in the middle of Swamp Nowhere when they most likely have absolutely no idea anyone was anywhere near there? Sure, maybe there is a bigger garrison there than is visible, but again, it's a Level 2 out in the middle of a booping marsh. Why would anyone stick anything out there if they didn't have to? It's not a Capital site. If it was, the scout probably would have said so. So what reason is there to do anything with this podunk little burg surrounded by wetlands?

If Haffaton has been watching them the whole time, that's a little too deus ex machina for me. They are a hidden task force from a hidden side that's very good at staying hidden. That Haffaton now magically knows that they are there is a little ridiculous. It makes much more narrative sense to have Jillian make a shortsighted decision (like, for example, razing a Level 2 city when they don't need to right now) and have it blow up in her face. Why have someone else hit the characters with the Plot Club when you can have the characters do it to themselves?

Scouts have ways of avoiding detection. So, while Jillian hasn't seen any scouts, that does not mean they haven't seen her. Above that, she's been scrumping in Haffaton Orchards, has been spotted by Charlie's girls and has been negotiating with Haffaton's enemies, all while flying along their border.

If Haffaton were unaware of Jillian, the Battlespace thing itself my well have tipped them off. From there, all they need is a suitably cautious commander. Boop it, we don't even know what Units that City can and is producing, they could scream for a battle in the dungeons for all we know.

Haffaton may indeed have magical means of spotting their foes, but that's neither here nor there. Jillian has no magical ability to hide her Units. All she can do is fly by routes she hopes will be free of enemies and end Turn in hexes she hopes no enemy will enter. It's one thing to do that briefly on the routes in and out of Faq, territory she knows. It's quite another to do so at length in unknown regions. And how is Jillian walking happily into a trap not hitting herself with whatever club is to hand?

0beron wrote:
Nnelg wrote:While I agree it is extraordinarily unlikely that the city's been trapped specifically for the WRECD, I think it's possible that Haffaton's put traps on all their low-level cities as a general precautionary measure.

Aaaaaaand how do you propose they'd do that? When we say "trap" we're referring to Olive's ability to stop combat (and in this case, call reinforcements to attack the otherwise stronger enemy). So they can't just "trap" every single city, they only have one Olive. (And I seriously doubt High Elves are as powerful as her)

Speak for yourself, I'm thinking of the sort of trap where they trick Jillian into landing in the Garrison of the City of Not a Trap Honest Guv, then spring out from hiding with intent to murder and maim at the most opportune moment. That said, you're quite right, Haffaton only has one Olive, people like her and Wanda can't be everywhere, ergo Haffaton has to be capable of defending regions they aren't in, else they would't have made it this far.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 035

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:58 am

Nnelg wrote:Not that kind of trap. All that's necessary is something that'll raise the alarm and mire up the attackers for a turn, and a rapid response force within 1 turn's range of this and as many as a dozen other 'trapped' minor cities.


I don't see how this contradicts what I said. In fact, it seems downright identical to what I said.
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