Summer Update - 022

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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:49 pm

You also have to remember that Charlescomm was selling thier services. He probably not only charged per turn a ridiculous amount but made Jetstone put down a deposite for the units 'build' cost as insurance per archon croaked. So, boo-hoo he has to spend a few turns to repop the low level archons, he made more then enough to compensate. The only problem would be, the ones with actual levels; Time is money and any unit lucky enough to survive that long and gain levels is far more valuable then the base unit. So the two Lt. archons would probably be sorely missed.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:50 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:My take on how Charlie knows about the link which uncroaked the GK volcano: In games terms, the Arkendish gives Charlie "natural thinkmancy" rolls to get intelligence on other factions.


An interesting theory. I dislike it, however, since in my opinion it implies a dehumanization of the characters. I'd rather just assume that Charlie is more analytical and deductive than most rulers.

To allow for characters' decisions to be the result of 'rolls' potentially removes free will completely.

I know that 'Loyalty' has been referenced as a stat, and so there is a strong argument for the existence of 'mental stats', but I had assumed that the inhabitants of Erfworld simply assumed that mental stats must exist, extrapolating from the physical stats, and that they needed a way to explain why some people betray others. (Similarly, we on Earth have already defined "good" and "evil" as external concepts - angels and demons - to explain why people behave in ways that we don't necessarily understand, a view which many people still embrace.)

If new ideas (and, by extension, other thoughts, hopes, dreams, etc.) are simply the result of 'thinkamancy rolls', then Parson is the only "person" in the whole realm - everyone else is just a convincing simulation based on thinkamancy algorithms.

This, of course, could lead to a discussion as to whether we ourselves have free will, or whether we "just" react to stimuli in complex (but deterministic) ways. Since I can't answer that, I can't contradict your theory either. :D
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby jerichothebard » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:51 pm

If Charlie is a Thinkamancer, it eliminates the need for a mole in the Magic Kingdom. He could be there himself...
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DevilDan » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:56 pm

BarGamer wrote:Is Parson being "too nice" in even talking to Charlie right now? Does Charlie feel nothing for all those croaked and now Decrypted Archons?

It's a great opportunity for Parson to try to trick some info out of Charlie, play some psy ops games... of course, it's also dangerous on both counts.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:02 pm

Well all and all we also have to remember parson cummunicating with charlie is probably out of necessity. After all, he has full log of everything that happens in the Eyebooks remember? If parson used it after the battle he'd pretty much know instantly. So as soon as people on his side started communicating with them again he probably just started chatting with parson.

Also, yeah Stanley dislikes Charley, but really he pretty much dislikes every other faction too. XD

Plus, Charlescomm was the only other faction that was remotely willing to try and help parson during the entire siege, hell his leader abandoned him (probably lowered his loyalty right there) and came back to reclaim the glory and shove him aside. "Great job, heres a coconut." XD
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby raphfrk » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:04 pm

Simons Mith wrote:I wonder what class Charles was before he attuned to the Arkendish? Stanley started out as a piker, Wanda was a Croakamancer. I suspect Charles might be a -mancer of some kind too. Moneymancer would be in keeping, but if he's a Thinkamancer that would be REAALLY scary...


Well, taking Wanda as the only confirmed caster that attuned, the tool boosted her natural magic type.

Ofc, that may not be required, and Charlie does seem very business orientated, and would fit a moneymancer.

Also, Stanley isn't a caster and he has attuned.

Lothmar wrote:Well all and all we also have to remember parson cummunicating with charlie is probably out of necessity. After all, he has full log of everything that happens in the Eyebooks remember? If parson used it after the battle he'd pretty much know instantly. So as soon as people on his side started communicating with them again he probably just started chatting with parson.


That is un-clear. Parson asks if his notes are safe, but there is no answer.

It is possible that Charlie just figured out how to create a chat connect to Parson and only sees stuff Parson enters in that channel.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lord Kasavin » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:16 pm

I'd guess Charlie has a natural thinkamancy link with his Archons similar to Vinnie and his bats, he sees what they see. So, he probably saw the Volcano erupt, which no one ever considered possible, and put the pieces together from there. Plus, he had "hacked" the eyebooks and undoubtedly had a pretty good idea of what "assets" were available to Parson. As for Charlie's opinion of Parson, I think this line from Serenity sums it up:

You're unpredictable, Mal[Parson].

You run when you ought to fight.

Fight when you ought to deal.

Makes a businessperson a little twitchy.


Charlie made Parson a very good offer of leaving an almost hopeless situation, and Parson stayed to fight it. Later, he literrally blew up his base in order to deny the enemy victory and in doing so probably condemned himself to death. Ultimately he survived on some unknown technicality and the whole ordeal turned into a huge bonus for GK. Charlie might admire Parson's wiles and strategic genius, but Parson's apparent lack of moderation has to scare him. Plus, Parson is responsible for wiping out a large contingent of Archons meaning Charlie might be playing on a tilt right now.

Also, count me as a Charlie disliker. He's essentially a war profiteer. Other's are in the conflict fighting for either ideals, duty, or because fate demanded it. Charlie acts above any of these. He willingly played both sides of the conflict. If an archon dies, sad, but thats cost of doing business. Every step of the battle Charlie found a way t o profit. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong per se in making money. I just don't like how he seems to answer to nobody or anything except himself and his his bottom line.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Tiger » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:13 pm

jerichothebard wrote:If Charlie is a Thinkamancer, it eliminates the need for a mole in the Magic Kingdom. He could be there himself...

If that's the case, I'll bet a large sum of money that we saw him briefly in one of those panels.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby ShinyBrownCoat » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:Also, count me as a Charlie disliker. He's essentially a war profiteer. Other's are in the conflict fighting for either ideals, duty, or because fate demanded it. Charlie acts above any of these. He willingly played both sides of the conflict. If an archon dies, sad, but thats cost of doing business. Every step of the battle Charlie found a way t o profit. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong per se in making money. I just don't like how he seems to answer to nobody or anything except himself and his his bottom line.


Yes, but he's funny. Not unlike another character in Serenity, with a girl's name. ;)
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:40 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:My take on how Charlie knows about the link which uncroaked the GK volcano: In games terms, the Arkendish gives Charlie "natural thinkmancy" rolls to get intelligence on other factions.


An interesting theory. I dislike it, however, since in my opinion it implies a dehumanization of the characters. I'd rather just assume that Charlie is more analytical and deductive than most rulers.


I agree, I like the idea that characters are their own person too, and not just subject to rules and dice rolls, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that whatever analytical skills Charlie has, the Arkendish will boost those for him.

To allow for characters' decisions to be the result of 'rolls' potentially removes free will completely.


I'd propose that characters have to choose to use their powers, and they can only do so a limited number of times. Stanley chooses where and when to fight. The Arkenhammer and his dwagons give him a huge bonus ("+ roll") in a fight, but it's Stanley who gets to pick the fight. Stanley gets a limited number of fights per turn, based on move and hit points.

Likewise, the Arkendish probably requires juice (or maybe money) to run, and Charlie has to make the best use of its capabilities as he can on each turn.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby peteratjet » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:31 pm

Uh, unless I'm missing something here, Charlie's handle was CharlsNChrg, not ChrisNChrg

I think Charlie's croaked. Maybe backlash from all those Archons getting croaked in one shot. Maybe a palace coup. But it's pretty clear that Chris ain't Charlie
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby balder » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:45 pm

peteratjet wrote:Uh, unless I'm missing something here, Charlie's handle was CharlsNChrg, not ChrisNChrg

I think Charlie's croaked. Maybe backlash from all those Archons getting croaked in one shot. Maybe a palace coup. But it's pretty clear that Chris ain't Charlie


Sorry, that was an artifact of the script-drafting process. Thank you for catching it, and sorry for the confusion. It's fixed.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby shneekeythelost » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:42 pm

Charlie came out ahead of this conversation...

He got confirmation that it was a Triamancy effect which caused the Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

He's also making an offer for getting twice the cash for the information he would otherwise likely not have sold anyways. So he's getting double for... nothing. Pretty slick

He's also playing mind-games with Parson to try and feel out how cheezed off he is. After all, a pissed-off Parson with a whole bunch of Dwagons might be kinda dangerous for him, particularly after he lost all those Archons. If he's about to be invaded, he wants to know about it, and Parson bantering like this isn't a Parson about to royally invade him. Otherwise, he'd have played things a lot differently.

This also reminds me that Parson has yet to tell His Toolship that the books are compromised. Charlie could be gleaning all kinds of important information and data about the GK side which he would be able to sell to all the other sides, and STILL holding to the deal that he doesn't tell anyone how they managed the Big Kaboom. Heck, he didn't even mention he wouldn't tell anyone that Wanda attuned to the Pliers or that most of the units croaked were Decrypted, so instead of just having a few Dwagons, he's got ten TIMES the troops he had at the BEGINNING of the first comic. Telling the others how to make Triamancy stuff isn't profitable for Charlie, telling them that he's got a boopton of troops which used to be YOURS and that if you don't get them NOW, you won't be able to... is. Assuming they fork over the right price.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Housellama » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:49 pm

Rosa Vernal wrote:Charlie's simply genre savvy.


This.

Charlie's also very patient. I get the feeling Charlie was a Thinkamancer before he found the Arkendish. (I cannot remember if this is correct, or if we've even heard about Charlie's background, other than "OMGArkendishThinkamancy!!1!") Thinkamancers all seem to be the type to, well... stop and think before acting. Charlie has always played the angles. He's taken the optimum play pretty much every time he's made a move. The only time he's lost is simply because Parson out-gamed him. I believe that Charlie respects Parson more than he does any other person in Erfworld, mostly BECAUSE he got out-gamed. In addition, he wants to maintain good relations with Parson, because he wants Parson on his side. Charlie is playing the long game, just like he always has. Especially now. I think Charlie considers this a strategic victory for him. His losses were relatively minor, he got to see react under Parson under heavy fire, and the RCC's heavy losses makes his mercenaries even more valuable now. For someone who deals in information, Charlie gained a great deal. In particular, I believe that having a chance to see Parson in action was worth a GREAT deal to Charlie. Parson is a new side all his own, in a lot of ways, and Charlie wants to know as much about him as possible. He's gotten a great deal of information already.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Housellama » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:56 pm

shneekeythelost wrote:Charlie came out ahead of this conversation...

He got confirmation that it was a Triamancy effect which caused the Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

He's also making an offer for getting twice the cash for the information he would otherwise likely not have sold anyways. So he's getting double for... nothing. Pretty slick

He's also playing mind-games with Parson to try and feel out how cheezed off he is. After all, a pissed-off Parson with a whole bunch of Dwagons might be kinda dangerous for him, particularly after he lost all those Archons. If he's about to be invaded, he wants to know about it, and Parson bantering like this isn't a Parson about to royally invade him. Otherwise, he'd have played things a lot differently.


I dunno that Charlie came out ahead. Parson didn't really give anything away that Charlie didn't already know. This was more the two master strategists feeling each other out. Charlie's baiting Parson, who isn't taking it. Parson is letting Charlie talk, because you can learn a lot about someone by what they say and DON'T say. Neither one really comes out ahead, nor are either of them really trying hard to get ahead. It's calculated banter. Like card players, a few hands into the big game, chatting idly.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby SteveMB » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:08 pm

Lothmar wrote:Well all and all we also have to remember parson communicating with charlie is probably out of necessity. After all, he has full log of everything that happens in the Eyebooks remember? If parson used it after the battle he'd pretty much know instantly.

I'd guess that Parson didn't use the Eyebook after the battle for anything he didn't want Charlie to know, for precisely that reason.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Housellama » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:09 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:Also, count me as a Charlie disliker. He's essentially a war profiteer. Other's are in the conflict fighting for either ideals, duty, or because fate demanded it. Charlie acts above any of these. He willingly played both sides of the conflict. If an archon dies, sad, but thats cost of doing business. Every step of the battle Charlie found a way t o profit. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong per se in making money. I just don't like how he seems to answer to nobody or anything except himself and his his bottom line.


I don't necessarily think Charlie's all about the money. I think it's a bigger deal. I think Charlie likes control. Money can buy control, but money brings control in other ways too. Being able to set the price for information and services confers a GREAT deal of control. It's not being the biggest and the strongest that gives control. It's knowing exactly where and how to use the power you have, and Charlie is an expert at that. He put himself in exactly the right place pretty much every time to get exactly what he wanted. He ALMOST had the Arkenpliers, but Parson managed to pull that one out of nowhere, probably because of Wanda's obsession with the Arkenpliers. The only reason Charlie didn't come out with everything he wanted from that, including Parson, was that Parson matched him step for step. Ansom was only a problem because of overwhelming numbers. Charlie was the most dangerous brain on the field.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Anton Gaist » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:01 am

Well, now I'm rooting for Charlie. Of all the sides we've seen so far, his is the one I'd like to work for. He's not just playing both ends against the middle, he's doing it while getting them to pay him for it. Just... brilliant.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DarkNewton » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:08 am

Personally I think Charlie isn't that concerned about his lost units, after all that's a resource he can always gain back. He like most other rulers are concerned with the unique advantages, and he realizes that Parson is quite the hefty prize to be had, telling people about this tactical genius that has appeared in Stanley's ranks would just speed everyone's plans in trying to hit Stanley while he's down. Which would have the side effect of suddenly making it harder for Charlie to pull a plot together to get Parson to defect. I doubt he wants to have to capture parson simply due to the loyalty factor, ideally he wants the unique warlord to be as loyal as possible. Which means... he needs to buddy up to Parson, and probably eat some crow and buddy up with Stanley enough so that Stanley's downfall can be rigged to occur with Parson off away from the capital with Charlies forces,.. well you can see where I'm going..

As was posted above, Charlie's into getting the powerful unique objects, and Parson is just that.. so we can expect a long con to slant all the options into Charlies favor.

Of course, I could be (and have been) completely offbase, but that seems to be the smart play. Charlies out for the new awesome toy, and the less others know about it the better his chances of getting to it first.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Chewy » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:12 am

shneekeythelost wrote:Charlie came out ahead of this conversation...

He got confirmation that it was a Triamancy effect which caused the Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

He's also making an offer for getting twice the cash for the information he would otherwise likely not have sold anyways. So he's getting double for... nothing. Pretty slick


Parson has just learned absolutely no one else realizes what he did nor the current status of his force and city. Also he learns of Charlies stance on the whole matter which is fairly neutral and the other factions stance on charlies faction. So its not a crushing victory in terms of intelligence.
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