Erfworld Empires VI - Return of the Kingdoms Rules Thinkin'

[LTDave]

So, I'm thinking of starting another Empire / Kingdom Building Sim. It'll be a more advanced version of the previous Erfworld Empires incarnations, but less involved than the other Erfsims, like Titanic Mandate et al.

As in all these things, it's the combat that is most important. So often in these games we get a couple of turns in before we realise the combat system doesn't actually work... (see Titanic Mandate, and BLAND's very annoying Island of You Totally Lose Because You Didn't Read the Rules Correctly at the Beginning Trade Mark Applied For)

So, before the rest comes up, here's my thoughts on the Combat System in EE VI - RotK


Battle!

Hits Inflicted = Total Stack Combat x ((Random [2d6] + Leadership + Special) / 10) / Opponent's Average Defence (Rounded Down to nearest whole number)

Average Defence = Total Defence of first 8 units / Total Number of Units (So beyond 8 units there is a disadvantage to Defence)

Special = Modifications for Dance Fighting, Various A-Mancies, etc


Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions?

[HerbieRai]

I think it'll depend a bit on how units stats are created and how "bloody" you want the game to be. Assuming defense and attack cost the same when creating the unit, and basic units have between 5 and 10 hits that will lead to a pillow fighting match. Assuming that 2 stacks fight, both having 8 attack and 8 defense with no leadership or specials. That leads to:

(64*2d6)/(10*8)
if 2d6 = 2: 1.6 hits. Wouldn't be even 1 unit
if 2d6 = 7: 5.6 hits inflicted. Possibly 1 unit
if 2d6 = 12: 9.6 hits are inflicted. possibly a little over 1 unit

This would take a lot of combat rounds to fight out. And this whole arguement is invaled if defense costs more than attack, or units have 1 or 2 hits each.

[LTDave]

Good point. I'm thinking of limiting Defence to a maximum value of 5, and defence will be exponential in expense, whereas Defence will be linear.

But it will still take a couple of rounds of combat to determine winners and losers.

Any other thoughts?

[WaterMonkey314]

What are you envisioning as the normal range of attack, defense, and hit stats? Also, what will be their relative costs? (You could have a perfectly balanced combat system, but with wacky costs, things could devolve into massive armies of, say, Fast Archers.)

[LTDave]

Good ol' fast archers... sigh.

Another good point. I'm working on a formula, but at the moment the base unit will be 2 / 2 / 8 / 8 C/D/H/M.

[Nnelg]

Might I propose that we go with something tried and tested and adapt it? I wrote up the bare bones of a system based off Axis & Allies, Samurai Swords, and Risk here. Basically it goes: roll less than unit's attack (or defense when defending), and you kill a unit. A few units can take multiple hits (eg. 2 for twolls, gumps, gwiffons etc; 3 for dwagons and [high-level] warlords).

A radical break from the comic, I know; but I'm convinced it's the only way to extract fun from the system. I like to think this was how things were when Erf was first created, before power creep set in and the titans got bored of all the micro.

[Pashalik Mons]

I'd like to declare a tentative interest in this, but I'll need to know what rules we're using, and what kind of application(details of my side, etc) I'll need to make. I'm also very curious as to how such a game would play out. It would seem to me that if players are competitive, as opposed to cooperative, then posting too much description of one's moves, or even too much IC text period might be giving away a lot of important information to potential opponents, but pbp D&D has influenced my forum-game style a lot, and I don't know if I'd really enjoy not being able to write mini-stories about what's going on on my side.

Anyway, I'll be watching this.

[LTDave]

Some more information as I go:


Unit Types
There are Four unit types. Units may only form Stacks of the same type. A Character that joins a Stack assumes the same type as the rest of the Stack.

Melee – standard hand to hand fighting units. Have an advantage against Ranged Units, so add 3 to Other in Battles.

Heavy – also known as Siege, these units are for knocking down walls and smashing puny humanoid things... Have an advantage against Melee units, so add 3 to Other in Battles. May not have less than 12 hits.

Flyer – units that drop out of the sky and slaughter things. Have an advantage against Heavy units, so add 3 to Other in Battles.

Ranged – shoot things with pointy arrows and other nasty zappy things. Have an advantage against Flying units, so add 3 to Other in Battles.

Battle!

When Opposing Units meet in a hex, Battle results. The following formula is used to determine how many hits a Stack does to its opponent:

Hits Inflicted = Total Stack Combat * ((Random [2d6] + Leadership + Other) / 10) / Opponents Average Defence (Rounded Down to nearest whole number)

Average Defence = Total Defence of first 8 units / Total Number of Units (So beyond 8 units there is a disadvantage to Defence)

Other = Modifications for Dance Fighting, Various A-Mancies, Natural Advantages, etc.

Phasing in Battle
The player that initiated the battle has the first “Phase” of battle. They choose which stacks engage which enemy stacks.
Once every stack in the Battle Hex has fought a round of combat, or avoided combat if led, the battle begins again. The other side is now the “Phasing” side, and may direct which stacks engage.

One Shot Wonder
In battle, each Stack has a “One Shot Wonder” (OSW) – this means that it can only attack once. A stack does not lose its OSW if it manages to destroy every unit in the stack with which it fought, unless the other stack takes at least 40 hits.
Example 1: A Stack of Heavy Ogres is attacked by a lone Pigeon. The Pigeon is killed outright, taking 2 hits. The Ogres have not lost their OSW, and may fight again this round of battle.
Example 2: The Ogres are attacked by a stack of 8 Marbits, each with 5 hits. The Marbits are slaughtered, but take 40 hits to be thus destroyed. The Ogres have lost their OSW.
The upshot is that a “soak” stack should have at least 40 hits worth of units, or it may not serve its purpose.
Once a stack has lost its OSW, it may be attacked by any other stacks in the hex without fighting back.

Every stack in a hex must have lost its OSW (or evade combat if a led stack and phasing) before any Stack may be attacked again.
Example: 5 stacks of Marbits are attacking a stack of Gobwins and a stack of Ogres. Both the Gobwins and Ogres must lose their OSW before either stack can be attacked again.

Led Stacks
Stacks which contain a Character are said to be “led”. Led stacks may choose to avoid combat in a round, if their side is “phasing”. They simply sit out the round.
Unled stacks may not avoid combat. They must engage an enemy stack. If no orders are left, Unled stacks will engage the weakest enemy stack available.

Chief Warlord
The Chief Warlord gives a leadership bonus to every stack in the same hex. This is the Chief’s Level halved, rounded down.

Specific Attack
A led stack may focus all its attempts on eliminating a single opposing unit. Calculate as normal, then divide the hits inflicted by three, rounded down. The resulting number of hits will strike the targeted unit only.

Shield Wall
A led stack may declare a Shield Wall. The Stack;s average defence is increased by 2 – however a -5 is applied to its Other score in combat calculation.

Guard
Any stack may guard a led stack, meaning that the guarded stack may not be attacked while the guarding stack still has its OSW. A guarded stack may not guard another stack. Multiple stacks may guard the same stack. An unled stack may never be guarded.

[LTDave]

So, let's assume a simple battle between identical melee stacks...

8 Stabbers ( 3C / 2D / 8H / 8M no special)

vs

8 Goatee Stabber ( 3C / 2D / 8H / 8M they're evil)

and fight!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 547

Stabbers:
Total Attack 24
Random 9
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 10

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 24
Random 8
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 9

Round 2!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 1026

Stabbers:
Total Attack 21
Random 7
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 7

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 21
Random 7
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 7

Round 3!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 1145

Stabbers:
Total Attack 18
Random 7
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 6

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 18
Random 4
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 3

Round 4!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 1240

Stabbers:
Total Attack 18
Random 3
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 2

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 15
Random 6
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 4

Yeah, ok. This isn't going to work. Back to the drawing board.
Takes too long to kill anything. More thought required.

[The Colonel]

Might B cool, I want in!

[LTDave]

So, here's the mind-altering change that will blow your socks off...

Hits Inflicted = Total Stack Combat * 3 * ((Random [2d6] + Leadership + Other) / 10) / Opponents Average Defence (Rounded Down to nearest whole number)

Yes, it is that simple.

Let's battle again...

8 Stabbers (3C/2D/8H/8M no special

vs

8 Evil Goatee Stabbers (3C/2D/8H/8M they're evil)

Round 1! Fight!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 2108

Stabbers:
Total Attack 24
Random 6
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 21
2 Evil Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 5 hits…

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 24
Random 8
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 28
3 Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 4 hits…

Round 2!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 2250

Stabbers:
Total Attack 15
Random 8
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 18
2 Evil Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 6 hits…

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 18
Random 4
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 10
1 Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 7 hits…

Round 3!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 2455

Stabbers:
Total Attack 12
Random 6
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 10 + 7 from last round…
2 Evil Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 1 hits…

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 12
Random 12
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 21 + 6 from last round…
3 Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 3 hits…

Round 4!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 2640

Stabbers:
Total Attack 3
Random 10
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 4 + 3 from last round…
0 Evil Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 7 hits…

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 6
Random 7
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 6 + 1 from last round…
0 Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 7 hits…

Round 5!

[LTDave]

Post Time: 2807

Stabbers:
Total Attack 3
Random 4
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 1 + 7 from last round…
1 Evil Stabbers Cwoaked, next with 0 hits…

Evil Stabbers:
Total Attack 6
Random 7
Leadership 0
Other 0
Opponent Average Defence 2

= Hits Inflicted 6 + 7 from last round…
1 Stabbers Cwoaked, there is no next…

And the evil stabbers win...
And it only took 5 rounds of combat... hmmm.