Book 2 – Page 81

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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby OverkillEngine » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:07 am

BCCroaker wrote:Yes I know that, still a goundhog is a beast and I'll bet there are frontier recipes for it.
0beron wrote:
BCCroaker wrote:However I have a question for the USA members of this forum - what does roast groundhog taste like? Or is it better braised?

Um....what? Im so...I don't even...what?
You know that on Groundhog Day, we don't actually EAT a groundhog...it's not like Thanksgiving being "Turkey Day"



Crock pot. Loads of seasoning like BBQ sauce, to cover any gamey flavor. Works for Muskrat, I assume it would for Groundhog too.

Edit: oh, and make sure you trim any excess fat off if you can. Critters like that tend to be very well marbled.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Pashalik Mons » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:50 am

Lamech wrote:How I rate Stanley: Terrible Ruler, 3/10 would not serve again. Luckily for him, the other rulers we have seen have gotten scores of:
Don 2/10: Needs whole set of warlords to stop him from suicide.
Jillian 1/10: Needs everything handed to her.
Slately 0/10: Suicide Charge
Unaroyal's queen: -5/10: Intentionally killed all units, when the "enemy" just wanted to be friends.

So while Stanley isn't particularly competent from our perspective, he isn't the RCCII


Hm, my own ratings would differ.

I'd say Stanley is pretty low. He's not a great ruler, though he is at least making strides toward becoming better. Gobwin Knob's success is mainly due to Parson and Wanda(and the 'pliers). At present, I'd give him the same rank as you, 3/10. Below average, but not quite rock bottom.

Don is actually one of the better rulers, in my opinion. A lot of his policies, especially re: warlords, have been pretty good, and he's cultivated a nice Side. As concerns Caesar and the loan to Jetstone, I'd say Caesar is wrong. i understand where he's coming from, but there's nothing to support the idea that Gobwin Knob will stop when they take down Jetstone, and it's only a matter of time until they come for Transylvito. Making the loan to Slately would have looked good for any potential allies, and also possibly have allowed Jetstone to resist GK for longer. Assuming Jetstone could have paid it back with bounty from Charlie, which is a decent bet, Transylvito stood to at least break even there, if not make profit, at least in the eyes of any potential anti-GK allies. For 9 turns' time, they have nothing to fear from other enemies, as any who could challenge Transylvito need to be worrying about shoring up their own defenses against GK. 7/10, above average.

Jillian: One of the worse Rulers. She is still in the barbarian mindset, and hasn't quite adjusted to ruling yet. She could be decent, but has to get her head in the game. 4/10.

Bea: The scorched earth policy was good to ensure that Wanda couldn't gain a bunch of forces by offing her, and it sent a clear message to the other Sides. In the absence of less information, 7/10, above average.

Slately: Slately does pretty good, he seems to know his politics and can run a Side. His suicide charge is neither here nor there for me, what is telling to me is that he has often valued the appearance of nobility over the substance of it, and that he has shown great favoritism against Ace Hardware, often squandering the value of a Caster. All in all, 5/10, average.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby MichaelR138 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Pashalik Mons wrote:
Lamech wrote:How I rate Stanley: Terrible Ruler, 3/10 would not serve again. Luckily for him, the other rulers we have seen have gotten scores of:
Don 2/10: Needs whole set of warlords to stop him from suicide.
Jillian 1/10: Needs everything handed to her.
Slately 0/10: Suicide Charge
Unaroyal's queen: -5/10: Intentionally killed all units, when the "enemy" just wanted to be friends.

So while Stanley isn't particularly competent from our perspective, he isn't the RCCII


Hm, my own ratings would differ.

I'd say Stanley is pretty low. He's not a great ruler, though he is at least making strides toward becoming better. Gobwin Knob's success is mainly due to Parson and Wanda(and the 'pliers). At present, I'd give him the same rank as you, 3/10. Below average, but not quite rock bottom.

Don is actually one of the better rulers, in my opinion. A lot of his policies, especially re: warlords, have been pretty good, and he's cultivated a nice Side. As concerns Caesar and the loan to Jetstone, I'd say Caesar is wrong. i understand where he's coming from, but there's nothing to support the idea that Gobwin Knob will stop when they take down Jetstone, and it's only a matter of time until they come for Transylvito. Making the loan to Slately would have looked good for any potential allies, and also possibly have allowed Jetstone to resist GK for longer. Assuming Jetstone could have paid it back with bounty from Charlie, which is a decent bet, Transylvito stood to at least break even there, if not make profit, at least in the eyes of any potential anti-GK allies. For 9 turns' time, they have nothing to fear from other enemies, as any who could challenge Transylvito need to be worrying about shoring up their own defenses against GK. 7/10, above average.

Jillian: One of the worse Rulers. She is still in the barbarian mindset, and hasn't quite adjusted to ruling yet. She could be decent, but has to get her head in the game. 4/10.

Bea: The scorched earth policy was good to ensure that Wanda couldn't gain a bunch of forces by offing her, and it sent a clear message to the other Sides. In the absence of less information, 7/10, above average.

Slately: Slately does pretty good, he seems to know his politics and can run a Side. His suicide charge is neither here nor there for me, what is telling to me is that he has often valued the appearance of nobility over the substance of it, and that he has shown great favoritism against Ace Hardware, often squandering the value of a Caster. All in all, 5/10, average.


You are ignoring some key facts here in rating the RCC2 leaders. They knew how powerful GK was, but none of them put forces into the battlespace to help Bea. Transylvito may not have to worry about GK, with the way King Don has wasted their treasury, even without the loan, Carport may conquer them before GK finishes off Jetstone and Haggar. King Don bet his whole future on Jillian, and lost. Now he has lost the loyalty of his staff, a few cities, and many troops and warlords. Even without making the loan, in 3 turns Transylvito has to start disbanding units because their income no longer covers expenses. King Don even knew he was wrong in trying to make the loan because he told Slately that it would break him to do it and only gave in because of the emotional appeal, not for good strategic reasons. He has by his own actions taken a strong side and weakened it to the point where its fall is imminent by an old enemy.

King Don 2 of 10
SLately is working hard to die heroically and pass the side to his son Tremmenis. But he will utterly deplete his side of units in doing so, leaving Tremmenis to fight a heroic last stand with few resources and no money in a doomed effort for a now doomed side. Had Slately listened and done what Tremmenis said, they could have left with most of their forces in good order and at least salvaged a draw from ths battle and still had a resonable chance of holding off GK

1/10

Queen Bea if she knew she was goign to lose without fighting, why not put all the treasury int he purses of yoru warlords and casters and send them over to Jetstone so that they could use them instead of just ending the side. Melodramaitc and stupid waste of her side and their assets.

1/10

Jillian is in no way a leader or a queen. She has alienated all of her neighbors and poential allies, cut off her funding and now must figure out how to support her oversized force who's upkeep far exceeds her income. She is the biggest idiot in a pool of idiots.

Jillian 0/10

That makes Stanley's 3 of 10 look pretty good. He at least has not dismantled his own side and its forces by his own stupid actions, which puts him ahead of everyone except maybe the king of Haggar. JMHO.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Lamech » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:32 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:1/10

Queen Bea if she knew she was goign to lose without fighting, why not put all the treasury int he purses of yoru warlords and casters and send them over to Jetstone so that they could use them instead of just ending the side. Melodramaitc and stupid waste of her side and their assets.

Yeah, she at the very least could have sold all her gems and casters to Don for ten shmuckers. But no, she burns them
Pashalik Mons wrote:Don is actually one of the better rulers, in my opinion. A lot of his policies, especially re: warlords, have been pretty good, and he's cultivated a nice Side.
He has been in the process of destroying it for a while now. Even if GK doesn't come for them Translovito is falling apart.

Bea: The scorched earth policy was good to ensure that Wanda couldn't gain a bunch of forces by offing her, and it sent a clear message to the other Sides. In the absence of less information, 7/10, above average.
She didn't even hat her gems to Don. That isn't a noble attempt to save others, its a temper tantrum. One dressed up in nobility and sacrifice, but still a tantrum.
Slately: Slately does pretty good, he seems to know his politics and can run a Side. His suicide charge is neither here nor there for me, what is telling to me is that he has often valued the appearance of nobility over the substance of it, and that he has shown great favoritism against Ace Hardware, often squandering the value of a Caster. All in all, 5/10, average.
I certainly haven't seen it. He starts a crusade with thousands of units to get an uppity Stanley. His side seems to fail in basic unit management tasks like drilling his archers. He places Ansom and Ossomer in command instead of Trem. His latest brilliant act involves seeing how many valuable units he can squander, already throwing two warlords away, and the huge amount of cash he'll need to promote Tram. And that's assuming nothing else goes poorly in the fight against the archons. Also note Bea, Stanley and Don have managed the destruction or ruination of their side while refusing the offers of alliance from GK.

And no, don't tell me decryption is a new uber-evil. Turnamancy, and thinkamancy are pretty much the same. GK is significantly more humane than most of the sides on Erfworld, and they want peace not war. They are fighting against the sides at war with them and have refused peace. That isn't exactly evil.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby GJC » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:30 pm

Y'know, this conversation seems to be less about the actual competence of each ruler and more about the degree to which they get in the way of the people whose job it is to make these calls. Stanley's just on top because he either doesn't interfere or because he's dumb enough to outsmart him when he does.

"The Ruler who governs best is the Ruler who governs least"
- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Thoke » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:24 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:1/10

Queen Bea if she knew she was goign to lose without fighting, why not put all the treasury int he purses of yoru warlords and casters and send them over to Jetstone so that they could use them instead of just ending the side. Melodramaitc and stupid waste of her side and their assets.


Lamech wrote:Yeah, she at the very least could have sold all her gems and casters to Don for ten shmuckers. But no, she burns them


So you think those warlords and casters didn't have any duty at all? I think they would rather be disbanded than to let their side die (except if you're a predictamancer).

Giving money, I don't know. Maybe there was no time for that, or some other reason.... Could be that it just didn't occured to her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Glome » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:06 pm

Thoke wrote:
Giving money, I don't know. Maybe there was no time for that, or some other reason.... Could be that it just didn't occured to her.


Didn't she burn through most or all her money promoting her army to field status so they would be disbanded when she killed herself?

But that raises an interesting question, why did she even need to do that? I thought rulers could just disband anyone they wanted anyway. Even if she didn't choose to give the money to anyone else, think of what sort of magical defenses she could of bought with those schmuckers. She could have disbanded everyone but the casters and had them set off a trap to take down some of GK's forces before they fled into the magic kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Aquillion wrote:Everything we've seen indicates that he's actually quite competent at fighting and small-scale tactics. He's just no good at overarching management or long-term strategy. And he knows this -- look at how eager he was to abandon his capital and go off with a small group. I think it's because the part of his life when he led a small group around conquering things for his side was probably the time he was happiest.


Please, the fact that an army with overwhelming force was a couple turns away didn't have anything to do with a retreat?

Stanley ran because he tought he wouldn't personally survive a last stand against the coalition. And Stanley was proved right. Even Hamster could only win by blowing up GK with everybody inside it and running to the MK with the mancers. If Stanley was there, he would've been blown up togheter with it and they would've lost.

Surviving that battle allowed Stanley's side to grow and flourish. How's that for long-term strategy? Contrast with Don's and Slatley "Burn money burn we need no units burn money burn!"

Nnelg wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Now if people count sacrificing everything you have just for the sake of pride as "good leadership", then yes Stanley is an horrible ruler. I would still choose to work for him any day of the week than any of the prideful royals that would sacrifice me in an heartbeat just because it's the royalish thing to do, regardless of survival odds or tactical advantage.

I agree with you there. However, the only person on Erf that we've seen do anything of the sort is Lord Firebaugh. (Jillian too, if you count shortsightedness combined with hotheadedness as a form of 'pride'.)

As for Queen Bea's infamous... "abdication", I have mixed feelings on the matter too. Her deed amounts to a mass 'mercy' killing, in the face of a fate worse than death.

You have to understand how decryption looks from the RCC's point of view. How would you feel if zombie Winston Churchill (or the heroic figure of your choice) came up to you and begged you to ally with Hitler's undead army, while constantly spouting Nazi rhetoric to boot. Pretty unnerving to say the least, no?

To them, decryption is an unprecedented abomination on the scale of The Holocaust. Total and irresistible brainwashing, becoming a slave -a WILLING slave- to the will of callous sorceress. To become little more than a puppet dancing on strings woven of spite, a harrowing fate from which not even death can offer deliverance. To suffer the forcing of others to this same doom, and even to do so with a macabre *grin* on one's face.


0-Most units in Erfworld are willing slaves already. Basic troops pop up completely fanatic to their current ruler and will mindlessly charge at anybody else that comes nearby unless directly ordered otherwise.
1-Like already pointed out, Turnmancy and Thinkmancy already allows one to brainwash enemy units. Which Jillian herself has been using and abusing recently, but the Royals don't seem to mind it at all. Because Jillian herself is a royal, so her brainwashing is awright.
2-Decrypted are gone for good if they die a second time, and Ossomer certainly didn't serve with a grin on his face.
3-Also like already pointed out, Bea could've still salvaged something (or lots) out of the situation even if alliance with GK wasn't an option.

GJC wrote:Y'know, this conversation seems to be less about the actual competence of each ruler and more about the degree to which they get in the way of the people whose job it is to make these calls. Stanley's just on top because he either doesn't interfere or because he's dumb enough to outsmart him when he does.

"The Ruler who governs best is the Ruler who governs least"
- Thomas Jefferson
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+1001 to that. Stanley is the best ruler because he gives more freedom of action to his subordinates than any other ruler. Do you think any of the royal dudes would ever give command of their troops to a filthy non-royal? Even Don has fallen into sending his non-royal warlords into suicide missions.

In contrast, you don't see Stanley bankrupting his side or ordering Hamster to perform suicide charges just because he's in a bad mood.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Thoke » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:44 pm

Glome wrote:
Didn't she burn through most or all her money promoting her army to field status so they would be disbanded when she killed herself?


Oh, yeah, that must be the case. Forgot it costs shmuckers...

But that raises an interesting question, why did she even need to do that? I thought rulers could just disband anyone they wanted anyway. Even if she didn't choose to give the money to anyone else, think of what sort of magical defenses she could of bought with those schmuckers. She could have disbanded everyone but the casters and had them set off a trap to take down some of GK's forces before they fled into the magic kingdom.


Well, we know that disbanding may affect Duty and Loyalty of all units on the side (book 2 text 16). I think disbanding everyone - especially warlords and chief warlord - would've most likely caused casters to disobey her orders.
Last edited by Thoke on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby LTDave » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:21 pm

I don't get the whole "Stanley is an incompetent loser" thing. Sure, from our perspective he is less clever than Parson, but that's because Parson is "the best Warlord ever" or whatever.

Stanley had a large enough empire and was causing enough trouble to oblige the rest of the continent to form an alliance to unseat him. That's not the achievement of an incompetent.

Sure, in book one he gets his donkey handed to him, but that's like saying Belgium is poorly led because it hasn't conquered Europe recently...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Oberon » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:52 pm

Nnelg wrote:You have to understand how decryption looks from the RCC's point of view. How would you feel if zombie Winston Churchill (or the heroic figure of your choice) came up to you and begged you to ally with Hitler's undead army, while constantly spouting Nazi rhetoric to boot. Pretty unnerving to say the least, no?

To them, decryption is an unprecedented abomination on the scale of The Holocaust. Total and irresistible brainwashing, becoming a slave -a WILLING slave- to the will of callous sorceress. To become little more than a puppet dancing on strings woven of spite, a harrowing fate from which not even death can offer deliverance. To suffer the forcing of others to this same doom, and even to do so with a macabre *grin* on one's face.
Not buying this.

The attitude of the average unit towards his Side is pretty much the same as this so called "total and irresistible brainwashing". And both are only able to be thrown off via turning to another Side which will also control the unit and their thoughts and willpower just as tightly. AND, prior to decrypting most captured units were simply killed because they just didn't have enough value to the captor Side to warrant turning them. With decryption at least a captured unit is valued more than that.

Imagine if zombie Hitler came up to you and begged you to ally with the US army, while constantly spouting Patton's rhetoric to boot. Pretty unnerving to say the least, no?

The only difference between your horror story and mine is that one side is considered to be "right", and the other "wrong", but the "total and irresistible brainwashing" is the same in either case, and it's just as frightening no matter the perspective.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Nnelg » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:15 am

One humongous rant of a post:
Spoiler: show
MichaelR138 wrote:[The RCCII leaders] knew how powerful GK was

No they didn't. They knew that GK had survived Ansom's storm, but they could not have suspected that they had become more powerful than ever before. They didn't know about decryption, so they could only have assumed that GK's expansion into Unaroyal was driven by Stanley's dwagons; dwagons which would have been almost spent by the time they got to Unaroyal's capitol, leaving GK's new territory ripe for reconquest by conventional means.

Besides, the RCCI was an alliance of necessity, not friendship. Stanley had gotten a bit too big for his britches, and needed to be taught a lesson. Well, he got reduced to a singe city which itself came within an inch of being lost. Lesson taught: he won't be conquering anyone again soon. It's not like that battle would've left many of his troops alive...

MichaelR138 wrote:King Don bet his whole future on Jillian, and lost.

He lost? Jillian isn't dead yet. Sure, Jetstone may well be dead soon because of her, but even so she's still got plenty of time left to prove herself.

MichaelR138 wrote:King Don even knew he was wrong in trying to make the loan because he told Slately that it would break him to do it and only gave in because of the emotional appeal, not for good strategic reasons.

So you're placing the value of friendship and honor below that of self-preservation? I guess that's ok, if you're fine with that. I certainly wouldn't be able to argue which is superior without doing some serious deep thought first.


MichaelR138 wrote:SLately is working hard to die heroically and pass the side to his son Tremmenis. But he will utterly deplete his side of units in doing so, leaving Tremmenis to fight a heroic last stand with few resources and no money in a doomed effort for a now doomed side. Had Slately listened and done what Tremmenis said, they could have left with most of their forces in good order and at least salvaged a draw from ths battle and still had a resonable chance of holding off GK

Ah, but you see the two problems cancel each other out. With all those units gone, there's a lot less upkeep to pay. And who says that Jetstone put its entire army at Spacerock? Odds are that Jetstone City itself has a comparable garrison, and you can bet that Jillian won't abandon them this time.

MichaelR138 wrote:Queen Bea if she knew she was goign to lose without fighting, why not put all the treasury int he purses of yoru warlords and casters and send them over to Jetstone so that they could use them instead of just ending the side. Melodramaitc and stupid waste of her side and their assets.

The warlords would've been easily intercepted by archons and dwagons, but for the casters I'm not so sure. Perhaps they grew weary of war in general, and she wanted to grant them a favor for all their hard work, who knows. I think though that she could be forgiven for not planning this in detail seeing as she just spent a few hours talking to her undead daughter.

MichaelR138 wrote:[Stanley] at least has not dismantled his own side and its forces by his own stupid actions

Um... Yes he has. That was the whole reason why they had to summon Parson, remember?

oslecamo2_temp wrote:0-Most units in Erfworld are willing slaves already. Basic troops pop up completely fanatic to their current ruler and will mindlessly charge at anybody else that comes nearby unless directly ordered otherwise.
1-Like already pointed out, Turnmancy and Thinkmancy already allows one to brainwash enemy units. Which Jillian herself has been using and abusing recently, but the Royals don't seem to mind it at all. Because Jillian herself is a royal, so her brainwashing is awright.
2-Decrypted are gone for good if they die a second time, and Ossomer certainly didn't serve with a grin on his face.
3-Also like already pointed out, Bea could've still salvaged something (or lots) out of the situation even if alliance with GK wasn't an option.

0. If you truly cannot see the difference between being fanatic to the side you were popped to, and fanatic to the side that killed you then animated your corpse, then I don't know if I can help you.
1. I think they're more or less preoccupied at the moment, if they didn't have a FAR greater evil to worry about, they'd probably have some harsh words for her.
2. Ossomer did until GK broke the parley truce, and others certainly have as well.
3. Hindsight is always 20/20. Parson could have whipped up a plan on the spot, but Queen Bea had just suffered through a very harrowing experience. The daughter she had lost and mourned had just come back singing praises of her killers.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
GJC wrote:Y'know, this conversation seems to be less about the actual competence of each ruler and more about the degree to which they get in the way of the people whose job it is to make these calls. Stanley's just on top because he either doesn't interfere or because he's dumb enough to outsmart him when he does.

"The Ruler who governs best is the Ruler who governs least"
- Thomas Jefferson
Master-Class Foolamancer

+1001 to that. Stanley is the best ruler because he gives more freedom of action to his subordinates than any other ruler. Do you think any of the royal dudes would ever give command of their troops to a filthy non-royal? Even Don has fallen into sending his non-royal warlords into suicide missions.

In contrast, you don't see Stanley bankrupting his side or ordering Hamster to perform suicide charges just because he's in a bad mood.

Neither have I seen others do such things frivolously.

Oberon wrote:
Nnelg wrote:You have to understand how decryption looks from the RCC's point of view. How would you feel if zombie Winston Churchill (or the heroic figure of your choice) came up to you and begged you to ally with Hitler's undead army, while constantly spouting Nazi rhetoric to boot. Pretty unnerving to say the least, no?

To them, decryption is an unprecedented abomination on the scale of The Holocaust. Total and irresistible brainwashing, becoming a slave -a WILLING slave- to the will of callous sorceress. To become little more than a puppet dancing on strings woven of spite, a harrowing fate from which not even death can offer deliverance. To suffer the forcing of others to this same doom, and even to do so with a macabre *grin* on one's face.
Not buying this.

The attitude of the average unit towards his Side is pretty much the same as this so called "total and irresistible brainwashing". And both are only able to be thrown off via turning to another Side which will also control the unit and their thoughts and willpower just as tightly. AND, prior to decrypting most captured units were simply killed because they just didn't have enough value to the captor Side to warrant turning them. With decryption at least a captured unit is valued more than that.

Imagine if zombie Hitler came up to you and begged you to ally with the US army, while constantly spouting Patton's rhetoric to boot. Pretty unnerving to say the least, no?

The only difference between your horror story and mine is that one side is considered to be "right", and the other "wrong", but the "total and irresistible brainwashing" is the same in either case, and it's just as frightening no matter the perspective.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. My point was that this was how the RCCII see it; whether or not you or I think that it's really that horrible is irrelevant. They see what they believe to be right being twisted and perverted towards what they see to be wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Pashalik Mons » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:40 am

Lamech wrote:Yeah, she at the very least could have sold all her gems and casters to Don for ten shmuckers. But no, she burns them

You seem to be assuming that she had a huge cache of gems, or really any at all. I don't recall any evidence to support that. And she sent her casters to the magic kingdom, where one of them has already tried to work against Parson. If another side of the coalition wants them, I can't imagine they'd be too hard to hire.

She didn't even hat her gems to Don. That isn't a noble attempt to save others, its a temper tantrum. One dressed up in nobility and sacrifice, but still a tantrum.
Again, you're assuming she had a bunch of gems to give. From what we know, it takes moneymancers just to make gems, there's no guarantee she had any to give at all.
I certainly haven't seen it. He starts a crusade with thousands of units to get an uppity Stanley.
A crusade that was largely successful, by the way. And led by Ansom, who is not a bad warlord. GK avoided total destruction because of Parson, and Parson is the ultimate unforseen circumstance.
His side seems to fail in basic unit management tasks like drilling his archers. He places Ansom and Ossomer in command instead of Trem. His latest brilliant act involves seeing how many valuable units he can squander, already throwing two warlords away, and the huge amount of cash he'll need to promote Tram. And that's assuming nothing else goes poorly in the fight against the archons.
Neither Ansom nor Ossomer have proven to be poor warlords. Ansom, in fact, is pretty good, if you'll remember that when Wanda relayed Ansom's strategies to Parson to be checked, Parson only disapproved one, and that one ended up working anyway. We haven't seen a lot of Ossomer in command, not like we did with Ansom, but I don't see him being a massive failure either. Slately is really starting to warm up to Tramennis lately, and hey, that's great. I like Tramennis alot, and the guy deserves it. But it isn't like there was only one decent son of Jetstone.

Also note Bea, Stanley and Don have managed the destruction or ruination of their side while refusing the offers of alliance from GK.

I think I missed these offers of alliance. Care to point me to them?
And no, don't tell me decryption is a new uber-evil. Turnamancy, and thinkamancy are pretty much the same. GK is significantly more humane than most of the sides on Erfworld, and they want peace not war. They are fighting against the sides at war with them and have refused peace. That isn't exactly evil.
How is decryption NOT a new uber-weapon? Turnamancy and thinkamancy are the same? Really? Please. Thinkamancy can make someone do what the caster wants...maybe...if it isn't against their nature anyway. Thinkamancy is great in its own way, but decryption it is not. Turnamancy? We haven't seen just how well a turnamancer can work their thing, but Ansom still isn't turned, and every indication I've seen points to the idea that a turnamancer can turn a few units per turn, maybe, under good conditions. Meanwhile, the only practical limit on how many units Wanda can decrypt is how many units Wanda's armies can croak. She literally turns entire armies over to Gobwin Knob, turnamancy isn't even in the same ballpark as that. And Wanda's armies gain levels from the croaking, to boot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Sieggy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:21 am

Glome wrote:
Thoke wrote:
Giving money, I don't know. Maybe there was no time for that, or some other reason.... Could be that it just didn't occured to her.


Didn't she burn through most or all her money promoting her army to field status so they would be disbanded when she killed herself?

But that raises an interesting question, why did she even need to do that? I thought rulers could just disband anyone they wanted anyway. Even if she didn't choose to give the money to anyone else, think of what sort of magical defenses she could of bought with those schmuckers. She could have disbanded everyone but the casters and had them set off a trap to take down some of GK's forces before they fled into the magic kingdom.

That was my thought . . . she could have disbanded her entire army with a thought, harvested everything fungible and converted it to Scmuckers, then sent it off with her casters to be used to support anti-GK forces, or just to spread the word that a new and terrible heresy was threatening all of Erf. Or hidden a Poison Pill in there somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:53 am

Pashalik Mons wrote:I think I missed these offers of alliance. Care to point me to them?


From the Queen Bea Summer Update (click) :

They are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance, in line with this new view of the world. They ask for the allegiance of all. Failing that, they intend to croak and decrypt every unit in Erfworld. Whatever this mockery of my daughter was, she then asked me to surrender Unaroyal and ally with Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Nnelg » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:22 pm

Sieggy wrote: That was my thought . . . she could have disbanded her entire army with a thought, harvested everything fungible and converted it to Scmuckers, then sent it off with her casters to be used to support anti-GK forces, or just to spread the word that a new and terrible heresy was threatening all of Erf. Or hidden a Poison Pill in there somewhere.

There's a difference between mass euthanasia and pulling the trigger on each of them sequentially. Do you seriously expect Bea to capable personally executing each of her units one by one, let alone so soon after being through the most traumatic experience in her life? This way, it was all over quickly, which is the whole point of a mercy killing.


Note: Wanda probably could've done it, even if she couldn't decrypt them, and Parson at the height of Ruthlessness might as well; but nobody with a half-decent shred of moral fiber would be able to bring themselves to do such a thing. Which also, by the way, is just more evidence from the RCCII's point of view that GK is the side of Evil (with a capitol 'E').
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Sieggy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:08 pm

Why would she have to do that? Individually, I mean - all she has to do is think it and it's done. or so I thought. Whether one or all, a disband order is a disband order. Either that, or since they had been promoted to field units,take them with you on a march to Transylvito or whatever closest ally she had and join them. That would have preserved their usefulness and kept them from being decrypted. Or, if you really wanted to be tricky,, would it be possible to raze your own city, then take the money and run? As it was, she left a perfectly useable city for GK to move into . . . if she was going to go for scorched earth, that would have done a much better job of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Oberon » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:47 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:In contrast, you don't see Stanley bankrupting his side or ordering Hamster to perform suicide charges just because he's in a bad mood.
It's kinda funny to see you say that, when you consider that Wanda had to seduce Stanley to keep him from sending Parson into the front lines to die, just because Stanley was crabby about the Parson he got vs. the Parson he expected.

And Stanley also managed to lose, what? 14 cities, leaving him with only GK. That's not exactly the same as bankrupting the Side, but it's damn close. It's a near bankruptcy of cities. It's probably only the fact that GK sits on a major gem lode plus the good works of Sizemore which keeps GK in the black. And now, decryption making units with no upkeep.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Kaed » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:08 am

benthehater wrote:I think Stanley was actually trying to say "boop". I think this might hearken back to Parson successfully getting the curse out at the end of Book 1. I makes me wonder about that act, how Parson's vocal defiance to the laws of Erfworld might be reverberating throughout.


There was an often forgotten (I think) update I can't be bothered to find now where Silvia tells someone about the turn she died. The gist of it was that she felt the earth breaking around her and the mountain waking up, but above at all she felt something else, not greater than the titans but still terrifying in it's power - Parson with an Idea.

I starting think now that it was foreshadowing, not a flashback.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:47 pm

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:In contrast, you don't see Stanley bankrupting his side or ordering Hamster to perform suicide charges just because he's in a bad mood.
It's kinda funny to see you say that, when you consider that Wanda had to seduce Stanley to keep him from sending Parson into the front lines to die, just because Stanley was crabby about the Parson he got vs. the Parson he expected.

He was thinking about it yes, but went ahead and asked his subordinates for advice. And listened to it. Whitout Wanda needing to gather all of their officer corps and threatening a coup like it hapened with Don.

Oberon wrote:And Stanley also managed to lose, what? 14 cities, leaving him with only GK. That's not exactly the same as bankrupting the Side, but it's damn close. It's a near bankruptcy of cities. It's probably only the fact that GK sits on a major gem lode plus the good works of Sizemore which keeps GK in the black. And now, decryption making units with no upkeep.


Now that's truly hilarious from you! So now Stanley is incompetent because he makes good use of his mancers to keep GK's coffers full? Righhttt. Don managed to bankrupt himself even with a moneymancer on their side, Stanley is turning dirt into money.

Now Stanley tecnically lost 9 cities yes... Because Wanda herself advised him to start picking fights with everyone to see if she could score an arkentool of her own. Leading to Stanley suddenly facing a dozen or so of royal sides ganking on him. But even then Stanley made the correct choice of pulling back his main forces (mancers, KISS and dwagon fleet) to his biggest stronghold. No suicide charges, no "noble sacrifices", he turtled in and dared for his oponents to come get him.

And hey, in the end it all worked out! Yes his subordinates helped him big time. But that's what a ruler is suposed to do. To gather competent people and make them work togheter. Stanley was after all the first ruler using a tri-link on the comic.

Contrast with the royal sides, which time and time again show that they have extremely competent people on their ranks... And then shove them into minor positions, like simple city administration.
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