Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:10 am

Interesting bit about the possible unit with no stats.

There's another unit with no stats currently in Erfworld. Parson. :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby DeathTheKid » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 am

I think Haffaton has a thinkamancer. Hippiemancy covers Erf and Life, not Motion. It seems like those peashooters use all three, so Olive would have needed some form of help to make them (unless that are considered to lack motion simply because they cannot walk).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Morni » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:52 am

kagato23 wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:1D6 is laughable? Bogroll had 12 hits, and he was a heavy, which looks to be a large increase.. I'm thinking that defence soaks.

And it looks like Combat isn't damage, and damage isn't shown by the 3D glasses.


Defense is almost certainly directly related. Also, we should remember that bogrol was a garrison unit, and by how he was treated before Parson, not one of any great repute. It's likely he was level one. Higher level warlords and beasts probably can probably take progressively more damage. Armored ones especially. one thing that hasn't been fully covered yet is how equipment affects units, which I'm sure it does. I'm not sure if Parson's glasses necessarily showed the units innate stats, or their stats based on equipment at a given time. I'm I would imagine, for example, Jillian does more damage with her sword then she could with her knife, all other stats being the same. But would the glasses show her combat score as static either way, or would it change depending on her equipment at a given moment?


Bogroll hat 12 hits and 4 defense. Theirs probably some damage mitigation involved some where in the calculation. So I believe we're all saying the same thing
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Azukar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:47 am

Plants and/vs Zombie, brilliant!

But I wonder what's actually going on. Everyone who has tried to attack Haffaton, especially when they're confident, finds they're dozens of steps behind...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby kagato23 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:09 am

Azukar wrote:Plants and/vs Zombie, brilliant!

But I wonder what's actually going on. Everyone who has tried to attack Haffaton, especially when they're confident, finds they're dozens of steps behind...


That was before they had a survivor of their tactics who's now on there side, and we know has a dubious loyalty at best.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby kagato23 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:19 am

Morni wrote:
kagato23 wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:1D6 is laughable? Bogroll had 12 hits, and he was a heavy, which looks to be a large increase.. I'm thinking that defence soaks.

And it looks like Combat isn't damage, and damage isn't shown by the 3D glasses.


Defense is almost certainly directly related. Also, we should remember that bogrol was a garrison unit, and by how he was treated before Parson, not one of any great repute. It's likely he was level one. Higher level warlords and beasts probably can probably take progressively more damage. Armored ones especially. one thing that hasn't been fully covered yet is how equipment affects units, which I'm sure it does. I'm not sure if Parson's glasses necessarily showed the units innate stats, or their stats based on equipment at a given time. I'm I would imagine, for example, Jillian does more damage with her sword then she could with her knife, all other stats being the same. But would the glasses show her combat score as static either way, or would it change depending on her equipment at a given moment?


Bogroll hat 12 hits and 4 defense. Theirs probably some damage mitigation involved some where in the calculation. So I believe we're all saying the same thing


Yeah. If we go with "soak" it'd seem pretty sensible. Though the problem is Combat/Attack doesn't seem to work the same way, since apparently dice are involved.

Maybe this should go over into the speculation forums, but I'd guess (and base on nothing) that that stat either indicates actual fighting skill/accuracy or is used to calculate how many/what kind of dice you get.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Whispri » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:47 am

If the seeds of these plants could be moved through a Magick Kingdom portal without disbanding, a tray full of flower pots (with seeds planted and growth spells set to auto magicaly trigger) pushed through a Side's portal could be an effective way of sealing off that escape route. I've had similar thoughts with regards to hatless Snow Golems.

MonteCristo wrote:I can see a number of possibilities about this update
First it shows the negative effects of what happens when a side grows too big; it becomes so unsustainable that they can not afford adequate defenses for some of their cities. Second the text is an interesting look into Jillian thoughts on haffaton and their fated situation. Third this could be leading Jillian to getting lulled into a false sense of security which will lead to a mistake in the near future. And then there is the name diecast, as in "the die is cast" which basically means that they have reached the point of no return; attacking this city could be what sets off the course of events that will lead to haffaton's fall, wanda's turn to faq and the eventual fall of faq

Nitpick: It shows what Jillian thinks are the negative consequences for being as large as Haffaton, all her thoughts on the subject are pure theory, she's never been part of a Side that large. Neverminding that the Battle of Diecast is far from over, one lightly defended City does not a weak Side make. This could easily be a recent conquest for example, with most of the army that conquered it off striking for the heart of the Side they claimed it from.

Nnelg wrote:Alea Iacta Est.

Oh, just the fact that they control -what was it? About ~50% of known Erf? [/exaggeration] It's in everyone's interest to take out a Side that ridiculously large.

Although, the fact this reference was made now makes it less likely we'll see a direct battle between Wanda's and Olive's minions in the future.

Yeah, the City's name just leaps from the page.

If Haffaton is a paper tiger, how are they a threat to anyone? Isn't a weak Side the perfect neighbour? 'Sides, I asked for non-evil reasons, 'because they're there' doesn't count.

Yeah, I'm finding it very hard indeed to believe that Wanda will turn on Haffaton. Her Uncroaked are literally their face!

gameboy1234 wrote:Just thinking out loud here. Why all the angst about Haffaton? We know who conquers Faq. Stanley does. Well, Wanda (who will be from Haffaton), does too, but it wasn't Haffaton's army. Jillian, Wanda, somebody is going to beat Haffaton. They're going to win the engagement with Haffaton, but loose the war.

Eventually. To Stanley and Wanda working together.

For a start, I've played plants vs zombies, a properly prepared garden is lethal, even to fast and armoured zombies and the waves of zombies can be huge. This City, that first appeared defenceless, that had no Tower landing space forcing Jillian to touch down in the Courtyard, only to face light defences making her think it would be easy... She charges into the Tower with her infantry, the doors are sealed behind her and blammo, she's trapped in the World of survival horror. Her heavies would of course be left leaderless making them far easier to deal with also.

Beyond that, you don't get to be as large as Haffaton by being stupid. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of idiots would gamble everything on Haffaton being the easy meat Jillian is optimistically assuming them to be. Jillian's Level 7 at the time of TBfGK she'll be Level 9. There's a limit to what she can accomplish. While as for Wanda, even if she did knock over Haffaton, why team up with Faq afterwards? It doesn't sound like her kind of place. And couldn't she just refound her Side in one of Haffaton's many Capital Sites?

Yes, we have some idea of Faq's final end. But even assuming no weirdness relating to Haffaton dissappearing in a puff of magic, we've no real reason to think that Haffaton is easy meat.

MonteCristo wrote:Lets see...
Well as Jillian pointed out, because they are no longer doing mercenary work Faq's treasury is beginning to dwindle and WHEN it gets too low Banhammer will begin giving out disbanding orders; meaning units will loose their lives... So Jillian, by razing this city is essentially trying to save the lives of her people by giving them as much time as possible in hopes they can find a solution before disbanding starts. Furtharmore, Haffaton is not exactly a side that's worth much pity considering how they have destroyed numerous other sides already and use such dirty tactics as poisoning people with a viper's kiss after a PEACE negotiation. Not to mention that Jillian has been told that Haffaton WILL destroy her side which would give her reason to strike first. Hell as it turns out, so far all the defenses seem to be plants and uncroaked meaning no sentient units are even loosing their lives against Jillian's group... So i can't really see how this is an evil action.

Those are evil reasons and I wasn't actually referring to this battle, but to Jillians 'total war/merciless extermination of a Side she believes to be helpless' plan.

Oh and those people facing disbandment? They're facing it because of Jillian's obsession with circumnavigating Haffaton, she has plenty of time to find work elsewhere if so inclined. The Predictamancy is self defeating, either it's suicide to try or the Prediction is false, providing no justification. Tommy's end is between Wanda and Olive. As for the Sides they've knocked over, they may have had casus belli and murdering the tens of thousands of people who make up Haffaton won't bring back the dead
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Nnelg » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:48 am

cheeseaholic wrote:1D6 is laughable? Bogroll had 12 hits, and he was a heavy, which looks to be a large increase.. I'm thinking that defence soaks.

And it looks like Combat isn't damage, and damage isn't shown by the 3D glasses.

Well, on average it'll take 3.4 attacks at 1d6 to croak a 12-hit unit even assuming defense doesn't soak, so I'd say that's pretty weak.


Whispri wrote:
Nnelg wrote:Oh, just the fact that they control -what was it? About ~50% of known Erf? [/exaggeration] It's in everyone's interest to take out a Side that ridiculously large.

'Sides, I asked for non-evil reasons, 'because they're there' doesn't count.

But what about "because they're the giant in the playground"? (no pun intended, Rich's alias is just the perfect metaphor)

They're a threat to all their neighbors, so is "dealing with a common threat" a good enough reason?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:55 am

Okay, that adds something.

1) Allies can hit each other.

2) Not all units have friend/foe pattern recognition.

Plants may not be units, but may be a type of Trap. Traps have been mentioned before, in reference to the Dirtamancy trap that was the volcano eruption.

And, no, the figure in the window does not have to be Wanda for uncroaked to be present, and given the weakness and lack of stacking/leadership, I'd say she is most certainly nowhere near this place. We've seen uncroaked in hexes where she was not present before.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby SNfinity » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:27 pm

Y'know, something just hit me. We know that they never find a new capital, because Stanley destroys Faq. And we know that Haffaton falls, because Jitterati is where it used to be.

Also, I think that the skull and flower is actually supposed to represent both Olive and Wanda, and she just kept it afterward. After all, they are/were in love.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:34 pm

Whispri wrote:Nitpick: It shows what Jillian thinks are the negative consequences for being as large as Haffaton, all her thoughts on the subject are pure theory, she's never been part of a Side that large. Neverminding that the Battle of Diecast is far from over, one lightly defended City does not a weak Side make. This could easily be a recent conquest for example, with most of the army that conquered it off striking for the heart of the Side they claimed it from.


We have seen bits of evidence to show that what Jillian thinks is the case. We have seen that haffaton's people find uncroaked distasteful but find them necessary for their side; this is likely because of their low upkeep... We even actually have evidence that this isn't just a recent capture when you consider that the uncroaked present are heavily decayed which implies that they have been there for a while.

There is likely a reason why Haffaton's size is considered absurb; namely that sides probably never get that big because they find it too difficult to maintain that size. Which is why they would use the mechanic to spin off a new side when a side gets too big

Those are evil reasons and I wasn't actually referring to this battle, but to Jillians 'total war/merciless extermination of a Side she believes to be helpless' plan.

Its a side that she has been told WILL exterminate them if Faq doesn't do anything..

Oh and those people facing disbandment? They're facing it because of Jillian's obsession with circumnavigating Haffaton, she has plenty of time to find work elsewhere if so inclined. The Predictamancy is self defeating, either it's suicide to try or the Prediction is false, providing no justification. Tommy's end is between Wanda and Olive. As for the Sides they've knocked over, they may have had casus belli and murdering the tens of thousands of people who make up Haffaton won't bring back the dead


Jillian's obsession? Seems your hate for jillian has led you to forget that Banhammer is the king and has final say in all matters. This is Not a Jillian issue but an issue for all of Faq. The king is the one who ordered that Jillian stop her mercenary work so that she could concentrate on finding a new capitol. Jillian has no choice in the matter... Those units are facing disbandment because King Banhammer ordered an end to all mercenary work to pursue a very futile evacuation plan. Jillian would rather pursue more realistic plans like ending Haffaton's threat to her side once and for all; hell her alternate evacuation plan would have even been a better idea than what Banhammer has her doing

And we have seen how haffaton operates... Goodmitten had grown small and weak, but still they were a target for haffaton. Goodmitten also did not outright reject haffaton's offer for wanda, but instead of pursuing peace plans, they decided to croak the chief warlord with a sneak attack taking advantage of his love; that's right they use "love" to kill people.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby wrecan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:41 pm

Nimelennar wrote:Aren't the plants and the zombies on the same side here though?

We have a few options...

1. WRECD happened into some practice skirmishes, possibly designed to let Wanda and Olive fight each other through minions to get XP and level up.

2. The city is abandoned (mysterious figure in the tower notwithstanding) and the unled plants and zombies attack any creatures not of their side. If Wanda is considered her own Side (because she is heir to Goodminton and never technically "turned"), the plants and zombies may not recognize each other as allies.

3. The plants and zombies are the city defenses, the city may or may not be without leadership, and archery attacks include a chance of friendly fire, thus taking out a zombie or two.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:43 pm

wrecan wrote:
Nimelennar wrote:Aren't the plants and the zombies on the same side here though?

We have a few options...

1. WRECD happened into some practice skirmishes, possibly designed to let Wanda and Olive fight each other through minions to get XP and level up.

2. The city is abandoned (mysterious figure in the tower notwithstanding) and the unled plants and zombies attack any creatures not of their side. If Wanda is considered her own Side (because she is heir to Goodminton and never technically "turned"), the plants and zombies may not recognize each other as allies.

3. The plants and zombies are the city defenses, the city may or may not be without leadership, and archery attacks include a chance of friendly fire, thus taking out a zombie or two.


It's simple friendly fire.
We know from book 2 that friendly fire exists... basically the uncroaked are attacking from one sides, while plants attack from the other and when the plants miss they wind up dusting uncroaked.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby sdub » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:12 pm

Has anyone mentioned the possibility that this all part of a master plan and that Marie is involved already? I was just thinking that perhaps Marie is trying to protect Wanda by moving her to FAQ as she will be the caster who summons Parson? We know that Haffaton is indirectly responsible for the destruction of FAQ (Wanda is from Haffaton and she is the immediate cause of FAQ's destruction).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby partywhipple » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:42 pm

Heh. Weird.

I am thinking they have Wanda send some uncroaked from fights to garrison cities. You can give leaderless units orders like "Proceed to City A and stay in garrison until attacked" right? She could have uncroaked marching across the kingdom constantly to regarrison cities and make sure they always have at least a few defenders. That way they can make sure no side breaks their front line and send out 1 unit to each city and razes it without a fight.

I also wonder how low the upkeep is for plant defenses. Maybe they are also super low cost as they can feed themselves with sunlight...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Zeku wrote:Uncroaked means that Wanda is the figure in the tower!
Impossible, if it were Wanda, Jillian would see stats, regardless of what side Wanda is defined as.

DeathTheKid wrote:I think Haffaton has a thinkamancer. Hippiemancy covers Erf and Life, not Motion. It seems like those peashooters use all three, so Olive would have needed some form of help to make them.
It is possible, but we already know Magic isn't that literal. Sizemore makes Golems despite the fact that Stuffamancy consists of only the Matter element.

However, on a topic that actually relates both of these...we have the "unit" with no stats. As someone has already pointed out, only 1 other person in Erfworld is known to lack visible stats, and that is Parson. Given the speculation about who and what Charlie is...I think we may have just met him (meaning Haffaton DOES have a Thinkamancer, just not for the reason Deaththekid suspected) :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:59 pm

0beron wrote:However, on a topic that actually relates both of these...we have the "unit" with no stats. As someone has already pointed out, only 1 other person in Erfworld is known to lack visible stats, and that is Parson. Given the speculation about who and what Charlie is...I think we may have just met him (meaning Haffaton DOES have a Thinkamancer, just not for the reason Deaththekid suspected) :)

Except for the fact that we know charlie is already around and is one of Faq's competitor's for merc work
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:03 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Except for the fact that we know charlie is already around and is one of Faq's competitor's for merc work

That doesn't mean he's not part of Haffaton though. He could be a Haffaton unit, Haffaton's RULER even, or just allied with them. And given how much territory Haffaton has gobbled up, they certainly must have cities capable of popping different units than their standard troops, so it would be possible for Charlie to use units not recognizable as Haffaton (assuming he even uses something besides Archons)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby SNfinity » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:05 pm

0beron wrote:
Zeku wrote:Uncroaked means that Wanda is the figure in the tower!
Impossible, if it were Wanda, Jillian would see stats, regardless of what side Wanda is defined as.

DeathTheKid wrote:I think Haffaton has a thinkamancer. Hippiemancy covers Erf and Life, not Motion. It seems like those peashooters use all three, so Olive would have needed some form of help to make them.
It is possible, but we already know Magic isn't that literal. Sizemore makes Golems despite the fact that Stuffamancy consists of only the Matter element.

However, on a topic that actually relates both of these...we have the "unit" with no stats. As someone has already pointed out, only 1 other person in Erfworld is known to lack visible stats, and that is Parson. Given the speculation about who and what Charlie is...I think we may have just met him (meaning Haffaton DOES have a Thinkamancer, just not for the reason Deaththekid suspected) :)


Interesting idea, but let's not forget that Charlescomm is already established.
EDIT: Actually I guess it's never been mentioned, I was thinking of something else. Still, he probably already existed - Jillian ought to have mentioned being older than him.
It just seems improbable (and quite unlike Charlie) for him to be in a dumpy level 2 city in Haffaton defended only by a video game reference, sitting in the shadows.
He's more of the "I win no matter what, so I'll announce the whole thing via preposterously proportioned flying lady dressed as a flight attendant" type.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Lamech » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:14 pm

Hmm... so those plant things. If that garden actually produces vegetables, which wouldn't be surprising, you could use them as a defense+income source. Now you can grow plants indoors if they have light which is easy to provide with permanent powerballs. Third, you can build things like Ansom's carpet to levitate stuff. (Or maybe even have them stand on a bunch of powerballs.) Finally I'm assuming plant defenses are still autotrophs and maybe even produce income like a farm

So Lamech's potential Haffaton victory plan: Take a room, levitate it on carpet or a bunch of powerballs. Have those defender plants be on on the outside part of the room, and farmable plants inside. Light with powerballs. Stack this room to the top of the tower. It has no weight since its all supported by magic. Repeat, thousands of times. Every room gives income, tower bonus, and defensive weapons. Keep on making more rooms. Eventually overrun Erfworld since you now have a superfarm tower. Possibly with airships. (Oh and this spirals exponentially out of control if high elves can make all the room components.)

Although on a more reasonable note, I wouldn't be surprised if those plants include other types of magic. In fact, I would be stunned if Olive at least didn't use rhyme-o-mancy in their creation.
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