Book 2 – Page 81

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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Nnelg » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:52 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:Jillian may prove her worth, but it is very unlikely it will be in time to save Transylvito from destruction

What makes you say that? Gwiffons are one of the fastest units in the game; dwagons are the only faster units on GK. So dwagons are the only unit likely to beat Faq to Transylvito's capitol. However, Transylvito has a lot more flying units than Jetstone, and we've already seen massed Transylvitan warlords make mincemeat out of them, so there's no reason Transylvito can't hold out for the short time it would take for Faq to arrive on the scene. Additionally, now that GK knows Faq is alive, they'll have to beef up security at their capitol or risk losing everything in one blitz. (Honestly though, a surprise assault on GK City might have won the war for the RCCII. I guess they must not have known GK's lookamancer had croaked.) And Parson might decide that it's better to consolidate by first attacking Faq, rather than risk overextending himself and losing the strategic initiative to the stronger enemy.


WarFAN wrote:Are you sure Jillian is a better ruler than Stanley? That idiotic and capricious woman who has betrayed her sponsors and allies?

She definitely isn't the sharpest spear on the rack, but I wouldn't go so far as to call her idiotic... Capricious, possibly; hotheaded and shortsighted certainly. But as for treacherous? Mere insubordination does not necessarily qualify for that absolute label. Remember, when she left Spacerock it looked like nothing could possibly go wrong for Jetstone, whom she never really was directly employed by nor allied with to begin with. And she was half-joking when she made that turn offer to Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:58 pm

Nnelg wrote:I guess they must not have known GK's lookamancer had croaked.

Huh....this is actually a VERY good point. I suppose the illusion is broken now that Jack is afield (pun intended) but Parson could use this to his advantage...when Jack is not out and about, he could trick the RCCII into thinking the Eyemancer Link is active again.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby drachefly » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:53 am

They could have inferred that the link was broken from receiving thinkagrams way back in book 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:25 am

Well the Link still issued orders remotely, and it wouldn't make sense for casters to LOSE abilities while linked, so because you don't actually see the Thinkamancers unless it's them who's actually making the call, I think the Link would still have been able to send a thinkagram.
Also, even if they assume or suspect the link was broken, they certainly have no way of knowing that Misty croaked, so they have reason to believe it could be restored at any time.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby drachefly » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:03 am

It does make sense for them to lose some abilities. They're busy doing something else, right?

My point was, if breaking and reforming links is risky, that was a significant hint.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Nnelg » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:57 pm

It doesn't matter that much, really; I think the story progression has taken us past the point where knowledge of Misty's death could be a significant plot point. All I was suggesting was a little bit of fridge logic[/url] that could explain why Faq didn't launch a surprise attack on GK's capitol, a move which would at worst rob GK of the strategic initiative, at best manage to croak Stanley.

However, in the meantime I've realized that Charlie was supplying Faq with intel, and he almost certainly had figured out Misty was dead. Instead they went with a different plan, seizing the initiative in an altogether different and much more literal way. Additional fridge logic (freezer logic?) provides other possible factors:
  • Traditional scouting would still be able to give GK sufficient warning to prepare their defences.
  • Parson was present, and he might be able to turn the tables and either destroy the attackers or keep them pinned long enough for GK's field units to roll over Jetstone.
  • Parson was present, and Charlie didn't want to risk him being killed in the fighting.
  • Jillian refused to ignore the expeditionary force.
  • Charlie didn't want to risk Jillian dying before her heir popped.
  • The dwagon relay Parson set up (mentioned in summer updates) could get Ansom and Wanda back to the capitol in one turn.
  • They had plenty of intel on GK's army, but little on its capitol, so they decided to take on what they knew they could beat (and how).
  • By the time the majority of decrypted archons were called out to field, Faq & Charlescomm had already commited to the first plan.
  • Charlie wanted to build trust between Jetstone and Faq (and be extention, himself).
  • Don specifically requested Jillian's assistance at Spacerock.
  • Nobody thought of it. (Jillian's not strategically-minded and Charlie's used to a much different kind of war.)
  • A combination of the above, with no one necessarily being the 'prime' reason.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Oberon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:44 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:He was thinking about it yes, but went ahead and asked his subordinates for advice. And listened to it. Whitout Wanda needing to gather all of their officer corps and threatening a coup like it hapened with Don.
That...is a very interesting ret-con. Stanley didn't decide against sending Parson into the front lines to die because he called for the wise council of his commanders. Instead, he was distracted by Wanda throwing him a screw until Parson could accomplish what he had planned: The destruction of 40% of the enemy siege. Only Parson's success coupled by Wanda's conniving kept Parson from being killed by Stanley. And as for "asking his subordinates for advice"? Stanley's remark upon seeing his dirtamancer in the tower was "what's the turd guy doing in here?" That's about as far from asking subordinates for advice as it can get, and yet somehow you've managed to paint Stanley in a completely different light than history clearly shows.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Now that's truly hilarious from you! So now Stanley is incompetent because he makes good use of his mancers to keep GK's coffers full? Righhttt.
What is hilarious is you building a straw man out of things I never said, and then defeating it all on your lonesome. Stanley is incompetent because he managed to get his kingdom reduced to a single city. If you blame Wanda for convincing Stanley to piss off so many neighbors, that is just a different kind of incompetence.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:But even then Stanley made the correct choice of pulling back his main forces (mancers, KISS and dwagon fleet) to his biggest stronghold. No suicide charges, no "noble sacrifices", he turtled in and dared for his oponents to come get him.
Oh, so this is how you decide that Stanley is competent? Turtling up,when every estimation of the forces against him (25:1) said: YOU LOSE. What a leader! I really cannot understand the decisions you manage to find sound, when again and again and again Stanley has to be tricked, lied to, distracted, marginalized, and occasionally convinced via a screaming argument or a thinkamancy spell that he needed to do something quite different than what he intended to do or it would be the end of the GK Side.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:And hey, in the end it all worked out! Yes his subordinates helped him big time. But that's what a ruler is suposed to do. To gather competent people and make them work togheter.
Ok, so now your definition of success is succeeding despite your own best efforts to fail. Brilliant!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:51 am

drachefly wrote:They could have inferred that the link was broken from receiving thinkagrams way back in book 1.

See linked Maggie sending Stanley a thinkagram in this page.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:04 am

Hmm. Yes, that's interesting. It might not be unrestricted, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby MichaelR138 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:48 pm

Nnelg wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:Jillian may prove her worth, but it is very unlikely it will be in time to save Transylvito from destruction

What makes you say that? Gwiffons are one of the fastest units in the game; dwagons are the only faster units on GK. So dwagons are the only unit likely to beat Faq to Transylvito's capitol. However, Transylvito has a lot more flying units than Jetstone, and we've already seen massed Transylvitan warlords make mincemeat out of them, so there's no reason Transylvito can't hold out for the short time it would take for Faq to arrive on the scene. Additionally, now that GK knows Faq is alive, they'll have to beef up security at their capitol or risk losing everything in one blitz. (Honestly though, a surprise assault on GK City might have won the war for the RCCII. I guess they must not have known GK's lookamancer had croaked.) And Parson might decide that it's better to consolidate by first attacking Faq, rather than risk overextending himself and losing the strategic initiative to the stronger enemy.


WarFAN wrote:Are you sure Jillian is a better ruler than Stanley? That idiotic and capricious woman who has betrayed her sponsors and allies?

She definitely isn't the sharpest spear on the rack, but I wouldn't go so far as to call her idiotic... Capricious, possibly; hotheaded and shortsighted certainly. But as for treacherous? Mere insubordination does not necessarily qualify for that absolute label. Remember, when she left Spacerock it looked like nothing could possibly go wrong for Jetstone, whom she never really was directly employed by nor allied with to begin with. And she was half-joking when she made that turn offer to Wanda.


You have missed some very key points:

Carport, or the side that owns it, cannot remember the sides name for sure, is KICKING the crap out of Transylvito right now because King Don has nearly bankrupted his side propping up Jillian.

In just a handfull of turns Transylvito is going to have to start disbanding units because they have lost so much of their income stream that they cannot pay their expenses and their treasury is nearly bust because KD wasted it on Jillian.

Jillian is several turns away from getting back to FAQ, so probably as many or more from Transylvito as they are very close to each other.

If KD tried letting Jillian fly into Transylvito airspace to "save" his kingdom, he would face an open rebellion from nearly all his warlords and casters. He no longer has the trust and confidence of his subordinates because his gamble on Jillian FAILED to stop GK, save Spacerock, or end Wanda. Even King Don would have to question if he could trust Jillian to enter his airspace with a large force, questionable loyalty, and her own looming financial crises to not take him over herself.

Jillian was setup with this powerful force by her backers to take out Wanda. She refused, and turned her back on her backers. She now has more troops then she can support, and no allies to go along with a reputation as a traitor to her cause. Paint it however you like, she is an utter failure as a diplomat and ally. She is still acting like a barbarian with no responsibilities and no cares for what anyone else thinks. IF Transylvito can hold off Carport, they are probably in an alright position to survive for some time, because Jillian is now on GK's hitlist well ahead of Transylvito and xshe has isolated herself that NO ONE will come to her aid at this point.

In short, Jillian is THE WORST ruler in the story to this point IMHO, only slightly below Bea. King Don gets a slight edge on her because he was a pretty good ruler before he destroyed his side bankrolling the crazy barbarian.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Aquillion » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:39 am

Aquillion wrote:One interesting thing in this page: Stanley seems to actually approve of Parson going into battle. At least, he doesn't seem to object to that part of it, only to the fact that he's been detained.

kagato23 wrote:Stanley 2/10: extremely vain, possessing of barely sufficient intelligence and competence
I think that Stanley is the Peter Principle in action -- we know that he earned his position as an overlord by serving as a competent warlord, and he earned his position as a warlord by being a competent piker (before he found the Arkenhammer!)

Everything we've seen indicates that he's actually quite competent at fighting and small-scale tactics. He's just no good at overarching management or long-term strategy. And he knows this -- look at how eager he was to abandon his capital and go off with a small group. I think it's because the part of his life when he led a small group around conquering things for his side was probably the time he was happiest.

His ego makes him want to be an overlord, but I don't think he even particularly enjoys it.

(This might also explain why he understands Parson's desire to go into battle himself, since Stanley feels the same way in his heart -- though for very different reasons.)

One other thing I noticed backing this up!

Here:
"Now, I was Chief Warlord back then, so I could do whatever I wanted. I told the King I was going off to tame dwagons in the high mountains out west, he didn't care. I headed out with like fifteen of 'em in a couple of stacks. Wanda said Faq was pretty weak, so I figured that'd be enough.
"I was chief warlord back then, so I could do whatever I wanted."

As opposed to now, as an Overlord? He's feeling trapped, I think. Certainly not happy to be there in the kitchen when everyone is fighting.

(And when Zhopa offers to go and fight in the battle, Stanley says "you wish." Projecting?)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 81

Postby Nnelg » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:35 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:You have missed some very key points:

Carport, or the side that owns it, cannot remember the sides name for sure, is KICKING the crap out of Transylvito right now because King Don has nearly bankrupted his side propping up Jillian.

Hm, it seemed to me like they had Carpudlian problem in hand. Sure, they're a serious thorn in Transylvito's side, but I see nothing to indicate they're a serious threat yet.

MichaelR138 wrote:In just a handfull of turns Transylvito is going to have to start disbanding units because they have lost so much of their income stream that they cannot pay their expenses and their treasury is nearly bust because KD wasted it on Jillian.

This would have been the situation if Don had made the loan to Slately, and Tramennis didn't survive to pay it back. That heavily implies that this is not the situation now. Besides, Transylvito hasn't been cut off from income, it's just been deficit spending recently.

MichaelR138 wrote:Jillian is several turns away from getting back to FAQ, so probably as many or more from Transylvito as they are very close to each other.

Well if you imagine that Parson would march on Transylvito immediately after conquering Spacerock, might I point out that his army is even farther away than Faq's?

MichaelR138 wrote:Jillian was setup with this powerful force by her backers to take out Wanda. She refused, and turned her back on her backers.

Incorrect. Jillian was commissioned to stop GK. The best way to do that would have been to croak Wanda, but instead she interrupted the opponent's turn. So she might not of hit the bullseye, but she didn't miss the target completely.

MichaelR138 wrote:In short, Jillian is THE WORST ruler in the story to this point IMHO, only slightly below Bea. King Don gets a slight edge on her because he was a pretty good ruler before he destroyed his side bankrolling the crazy barbarian.

I will admit to you that it is indeed likely that Jillian is the least competent of all rulers we've seen to far, although I would stipulate that it isn't by a huge margin. From a completely pragmatic point of view, Don is still competent; everyone makes mistakes occasionally, and everyone gets sappy from time to time. Don hasn't doomed his Side any more than lingering for breakfast guarantees being late for work -he's just used up the margin for error is all.
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