Book 2 – Page 82

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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby wrecan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:25 pm

I think Stanley has more than enough dwagons, as well as hobgobwin and gobwin archers, to defend GK against anything but a major assault, which Charlie is not going to do. Certainly for long enough to recall Sizemore, Wanda, and Maggie through the tunnel to the portal, via Eyebook, if he has to.

If Jack and Maggie are out of juice, that leaves Wanda, Marie, Sizemore, Janis and the Predictamancers vs. Jojo and his carnies vs. GMtTA. If Parson can get the carnies and GMtTA to fight one another, with the Predictamancers and Janis giving him cover, he should be able to make it the six feet he needs to enter Jetstone with Wanda, Jack, and Sizemore. Of course, in his wake, the Magic Kingdom will be in total all-out war. I suspect Maggie will be killed in the crossfire.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby jkosta » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:33 pm

Maggie will be our Eponine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Zeku » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:50 pm

Losing your capital doesn't mean a great deal in a system like this. You just flee on your turn, instantly appoint a new capital, and move on. In fact, enemy losses from engaging your defenses will leave them vulnerable to other sides or a counterattack. "Strategy." We have to assume GK (not sure what the sides official name is) has other large cities, and still has plenty of money.

The pacing of the story is actually fine, it just seems slow to us because they take a while to generate.

We know that Parson's reason for entering the MK was unrelated to strategy. (supposedly)
We know his trip has failed, and has attracted attention, 2 serious blunders.

I speculate that Charlie wants to prevent any insight into the real limitations of Erfworld, (such as attacking through the MK) because he relies on ignorance and exploits to maintain his power. So in this case, Parson's victory would be against a system of lies, even though he wouldn't personally benefit. This is a strong parallel to the real world, especially when you consider that Carnymancers are propaganda artists, or professional liars. I mean we don't specifically know that Charlie is a perv who uses his archons for a variety of purposes, or that he secretly rules the entire world, but it's implied, and he's not about to give that up.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Nnelg » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:40 pm

Zeku wrote:I speculate that Charlie wants to prevent any insight into the real limitations of Erfworld, (such as attacking through the MK) because he relies on ignorance and exploits to maintain his power. So in this case, Parson's victory would be against a system of lies, even though he wouldn't personally benefit. This is a strong parallel to the real world, especially when you consider that Carnymancers are propaganda artists, or professional liars. I mean we don't specifically know that Charlie is a perv who uses his archons for a variety of purposes, or that he secretly rules the entire world, but it's implied, and he's not about to give that up.

I dunno... That conspiracy theory sounds a little far-fetched to me. I'd think it's much more likely that the casters themselves are hushing up the possibility that the MK actually could be used for some forms of attack. Perhaps a secret society of Retconjurers are actually erasing from existence any non-caster who steps through the gate, only it doesn't work on Parson because he isn't from Erf to begin with.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Justyn » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:23 pm

Zeku wrote:Losing your capital doesn't mean a great deal in a system like this. You just flee on your turn, instantly appoint a new capital, and move on.


Actually, you might want to reread some of the stuff in regards to capitals: destruction of the Capital means the destruction of the Side. And while going into detail as to why Capital Sites are important breaks the "don't quote Word of God outside the IRC" rule, I can say that Capital sites are quite important.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby BrotherRool » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:26 pm

Salem wrote:
0beron wrote:In order to avoid a massive loss, yes Stanley would have to appoint an Heir before he fell in combat with Charlie. Casters may be spared by being in the MK, but all of the GK units elsewhere (including the massive army of Decrypted) would disband if the side lacked an Heir. So sure, the core GK leadership would survive...but without an army to take and later defend Spacerock, it might as well be lights out.
Sure it's possible the 'Plier (perhaps combined with Wanda's former-Ruler status) would allow her to keep the Decrypted from disbanding, but I think it's a bit of a stretch.


I more so meant would Stanley as a person do it. Does he care about his side carrying on without him? He does have his whole tool mandate thing going on.

I think it'd be a matter of just how much he's grown of late. Because at the end of book 1, he wasn't dealing with the stress and he was thinking and committing actions that could have easily resulted in the whole side disbanding. I definitely think he didn't have loyalty to the Kingdom as a whole, just whatever he happened to control himself at the time. But he has been getting better and he's shown some thoughts of ideas not completely centred on him. I think if someone reminded him somehow when the moment came, he'd probably do it, but he might not come to the idea by himself
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby ftl » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:11 pm

I think Capitals can only be designated at Capital Sites. Like, you can't just make any old city a capital.

If you have two capital sites, you'll be able to avoid your side's destruction by making that one the capital. But capital sites are rare. I guess GK has two now, one at GK and one at Unaroyal's former capital? But still, that's an outlying city, not a core well-defended one, even Jillian's force would be able to sack it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby name lips » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:57 pm

Jojo is trying to complicate the situation, to try to back Parson into a corner where he has no good options. He's sowing chaos... and right after giving Parson the "Get of out ErfWorld Free" scroll.

He's trying to make things get so hairy that Parson is in fear of his life, and will resort to the scroll as his last possible option.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:57 pm

Suitesned wrote:I'm just worried something is going to happen to GK now that Parson and all the castors are not there. It is the perfect setup for Stanley to get croaked and then have a division among Parson and the castors as to what to do next.

It's a remarkable coincidence that most of the GK units we know well would not only avoid disbandment, but also avoid turning neutral in a frozen city, if GK were to end right now. Actually, that protection could extend to any unit stacked with Wanda, wherever she is, considering that she is a Ruler.

We might very well be seeing the simultaneous end of Slately and Stanley.

I think a caster invasion of GK would be the most likely scenario for Stanley croaking right now. Even if no MK caster in his right mind would take the personal risk of invading GK just because of a rules violation, some might be so offended that the Great Minds could use thinkamancy to nudge them out of their right minds. Also, carnymancy might be useful to distract attention from the thinkamancy. Even the predictamancers could participate, if their predictamancy tells them that Parson will survive without GK. If a predictamancer Predicts that the death squad will survive croaking Stanley, that makes the decision a lot easier. If Janis is onboard with this, she can prevent Maggie from interfering, saving her life.

If GK ends, the decrypted units in Spacerock should become unallied neutral units, though I suppose since their warlords would prevent them from auto-attacking former GK units, and the warlords would be inclined to join up with Wanda, it may not make much difference. On the other hand, if they lose faith that Wanda is returning when they go neutral, they might surrender to Jetstone. But I think Wanda will already be back in Spacerock when the MK assassinates Stanley.


Incidentally, it hasn't struck me until just now how strange it is that the Magic Kingdom is an exception to the rule that units of a Capital Side disband if their Capital is taken while they are in the field if they are not stacked with the Ruler. (I don't think we have seen an example of an Heir being in the field when the Capital is taken with the Ruler still alive, so we don't know if Heirs and their stacks are equally protected.) We know the MK isn't a city, but it also isn't an ordinary non-city hex that happens to have portals that don't cost movement points.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:41 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Suitesned wrote:I'm just worried something is going to happen to GK now that Parson and all the castors are not there. It is the perfect setup for Stanley to get croaked and then have a division among Parson and the castors as to what to do next.

It's a remarkable coincidence that most of the GK units we know well would not only avoid disbandment, but also avoid turning neutral in a frozen city, if GK were to end right now. Actually, that protection could extend to any unit stacked with Wanda, wherever she is, considering that she is a Ruler.


Would you be so kind as to remind me what side she is ruling?

As far as I know she is only an ex-heir to a now eradicated side of the lost croatan tribe.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:53 pm

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Would you be so kind as to remind me what side she is ruling?

As far as I know she is only an ex-heir to a now eradicated side of the lost croatan tribe.

A Capital Side requires a Capital, so she isn't ruling anything in the present tense.

She's not just an ex-heir, she's an ex-Ruler. Direct quote: "She was Overlord of Goodminton". Her father was not the last unit to die in Goodminton's garrison.

We don't know if the ability to Rule is an attribute that a unit retains. We do know that Jillian was in the same position in Book I, and that she was able to found the new Faq. (Based on Stanley's description of the battle, Banhammer wasn't the last to die in his Garrison either, so Jillian should have briefly been Ruler of the old Faq.) Considering that units in a Capital when an Heir-less Ruler croaks are unable to found a new Side and instead become "frozen", the most likely explanations are either (A) only Heirs have the potential to Rule, or (B) all Commanders have the potential to Rule but being "frozen" prevents them from founding a Side using the Capital Site they are sitting on.

If (B) is true, then I guess the assassination of Stanley would have to take place while Parson and co. are still in the MK, or they would get frozen in Spacerock.
Last edited by Chit Rule Railroad on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:03 am

Thanks! She was ruler for so little time that I completely forgot that part or her Curriculum vitae.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:36 am

I should also concede that it may be that whatever attribute allows one to Rule can be permanently given up voluntarily, perhaps by the "abdication" mechanic, and that Haffaton may have forced Wanda to do so, whereas Jillian avoided being subsumed by another Side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Saladman » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:44 am

jkosta wrote:Maggie will be our Eponine.


...

But who does that make Cosette?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby abb3w » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:05 am

pearl jam wrote:I like the fact that muscle guy's tattoo can change expressions. :D

The idea's probably taken from Phil Foglio's "Girl Genius" (or the earlier Xenophile use), but it's not like he has a trademark. If Rob and Xin are stealing, they're stealing from one of the best.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Salem » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:09 am

abb3w wrote:
pearl jam wrote:I like the fact that muscle guy's tattoo can change expressions. :D

The idea's probably taken from Phil Foglio's "Girl Genius" (or the earlier Xenophile use), but it's not like he has a trademark. If Rob and Xin are stealing, they're stealing from one of the best.

I think it is a lot older than that.

Also, is it being in the magic kingdom that saves you or being a caster? Though if it was just being a caster, it wouldn't matter much if you weren't in GK because you'd either be stuck there without a portal and no way to offer your services or dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:49 am

Lamech wrote:You know how the thinkamancers could win right now? "Parson your plan makes absolutely no sense! You have a two for a bonus, why would... wait, that's a suggestion spell on you. I can barely even tell its their, how is that even possible? No thinkamancer could do that, which means: Charlie. My fellow casters, Charlie has attempted to incite war here. This act cannot go unpunished. He spread the idea of using portals to attack, and attempted to do exactly that. This cannot go unpunished. We must seal Charlie's portal and support any efforts to destroy him, otherwise he will croak us all!."

BAM! All the resources of the MK are now pointed at Charlie.

Why would the other casters of the magic kingdom believe the thinkamancers on this front? After all, not only are the thinkamancers protecting the warlord that the REST of mk has been wary of, but Charlie himself actually has a very good reputation with doing business in the magic kingdom. Frankly, by supporting parson, the thinkamancers have actually joined a rather unpopular club. Not to mention that none of this would stop parson from HIS current course of action since he still knows that they are likely loosing the battle on the other side as they speak AND he has his own thinkamancer that would have likely noticed the suggestion spell leading him to think that the thinkamancers are likely lying

Lamech wrote:Capital shuffle. Move the capital to Spacerock, move in casters and corpses. Probably decrypt a couple to help move the corpses to the GK portal. Switch capital to GK, move everything through the GK portal.

That could work; though it assumes that you can reassign capitols at any time, namely when you are off turn.
However it does not address the other points like the simple fact that carrying corpses across portal park would take a VERY long time and would likely be stopped by the people of the magic kingdom who do not want MK became a staging ground for war.

Also we have to take into account how quickly Charlie might strike; with enough archons, Charlie could strike very hard and very fast. In order to use the defenses to the best effect, the casters would need to get to the tower where they have their bonuses. And the group might be stopped as they travel thought the MK by a flurry of casters angered that they would use an enemy portal.

That would end poorly for the anti-GKers. Right now the main force all wants Parson alive. Team-Parson has the advantage, anti-Parson would get wiped and Wanda would have a bunch of decrypted casters. Worst case is Wanda gets enough power to snowball through the MK, and theres a TPK. (This is an especially big risk due to the potential for tri-links if Wanda gets the thinkamancers.)


Not quite... the thinkamancers may like parson but they are anti-war as far as the magic kingdom goes which is why they won't let him through... as such they are unlikely to START a war in the magic kingdom. Furtharmore as we know, most casters in the magic kingdom are anti-parson and thanks to jeffi, world is spreading that parson is attempting to cross into an enemy portal. The casters of the kingdom do not want that... only the Predictamancers support parson THAT far. Even Janis does not like this plan and i don't many of the hippymancers would be quick to follow her because they would likely feel similar. When it comes down to it, Wanda's at a disadvantage here; She has only the GK casters, parson and the predictamancers that she can rely on (the thinkamancers are questionable at best) against the entirely of the Magic kingdom; she doesn't have her large armies of decrypted already there to back her up... and when it comes down to it, the predictamancers and thinkamancers are not exactly known for their combat abilities unlike some other branches of casters. Hell instead of simply focusing on Jeffi's group, imagine if every other caster in portal park realized what was going on and saw Parson leading a battle inside MK? He's not very popular and they would be quick to turn on him, not join him as he is doing what they feared he would; starting a war in MK


Chit Rule Railroad wrote:We don't know if the ability to Rule is an attribute that a unit retains. We do know that Jillian was in the same position in Book I, and that she was able to found the new Faq. (Based on Stanley's description of the battle, Banhammer wasn't the last to die in his Garrison either, so Jillian should have briefly been Ruler of the old Faq.) Considering that units in a Capital when an Heir-less Ruler croaks are unable to found a new Side and instead become "frozen", the most likely explanations are either (A) only Heirs have the potential to Rule, or (B) all Commanders have the potential to Rule but being "frozen" prevents them from founding a Side using the Capital Site they are sitting on.


No Jillian was not in the same posiiotn as Wanda... Wanda, though she was a ruler, was captured and became a common unit under Haffaton, then later turned to Faq and then even later turned to Gobwinknob; she served 3 other sides under 3 different rulers. Jillian on the otherhand was always a barbarian after he capitol fight and never joined other sides. The fact That Wanda joined other sides could have stripped her of her rights as a ruling unit, unlike Jillian who never joined any other sides.
Last edited by MonteCristo on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby vintermann » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:47 am

I just noticed something. The hedgehog-carrying predictamancer - when Parson tells Isaac he's not under his protection, and that he should move aside, he definitively looks worried and surprised.

Why is that? For one, isn't a surprised predictamancer a rare thing? And even if Parson is a predictamancy wild card, there's nothing unexpected in what he says that could obviously provoke that reaction. (The predictamancers know Parson wants to break through - don't they?)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby Whispri » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:09 am

MonteCristo wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:We don't know if the ability to Rule is an attribute that a unit retains. We do know that Jillian was in the same position in Book I, and that she was able to found the new Faq. (Based on Stanley's description of the battle, Banhammer wasn't the last to die in his Garrison either, so Jillian should have briefly been Ruler of the old Faq.) Considering that units in a Capital when an Heir-less Ruler croaks are unable to found a new Side and instead become "frozen", the most likely explanations are either (A) only Heirs have the potential to Rule, or (B) all Commanders have the potential to Rule but being "frozen" prevents them from founding a Side using the Capital Site they are sitting on.
No Jillian was not in the same posiiotn as Wanda... Wanda, though she was a ruler, was captured and became a common unit under Haffaton, then later turned to Faq and then even later turned to Gobwinknob; she served 3 other sides under 3 different rulers. Jillian on the otherhand was always a barbarian after he capitol fight and never joined other sides. The fact That Wanda joined other sides could have stripped her of her rights as a ruling unit, unlike Jillian who never joined any other sides.

It's made pretty clear here that heirs retain their status upon leaving one Side for another. It'd be a surprise close to shock for me if they didn't.

Nitpick: While it is possible Wanda was forced into Haffaon's service at sword point, she may have joined them voluntarily. Also, she's hardly a common Unit, she a Caster and Commander.
Last edited by Whispri on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 82

Postby teratorn » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:08 am

My problem with Stanley falling is the Arkenhammer going into Charlie's hands. Even if he somehow manages to send it to Parson (by hat or something like that) we'd need someone else to attune to it.
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