Book 2 – Page 82

[0beron]

My problem with Stanley falling is the Arkenhammer going into Charlie's hands. Even if he somehow manages to send it to Parson (by hat or something like that) we'd need someone else to attune to it.

Easy. Jillian.

[effataigus]

The missing natural allies of GK are suddenly coming to mind... aren't they tunnelers? I remember an update where the sole remaining member was lying to Parson about something (how many of his tribe survived?).

That was a hobgobwin that lied to Parson. The missing tunnelers are gobwins. However, I think you are on the right track...

We also know:
1. It is likely that the missing natural allies (gobwins) are attributable to Charlie, if they are not just a freak coincidence.
2. Gobwins have overthrown the leader of Gobwin Knob before when the Chief Warlord left town.
3. Charlie has a full turn before GK's next (we know he is not on the same turn as RCCII since the archons had to hide over Haggar's forces).
4. We've seen Charlie orchestrate a natural-ally loyalty change before an invasion (Faq and the Giants).

Given these observations, are we totally confident of this: ?

I think Stanley has more than enough dwagons, as well as hobgobwin and gobwin archers, to defend GK against anything but a major assault, which Charlie is not going to do.

What if the dwagons were all that was defending GK against the hobgobwins?... and archons? I think there's been more than enough foreshadowing for this. Recall that the guilty-feeling hobgobwin was the leader of his tribe.

Charlie also orchestrated the Kingworld spell, and knew enough to not count Hamster out after it was cast. I don't think it's totally out of the question that he anticipated Parson going through the MK.

[drachefly]

It's made pretty clear here that heirs retain their status upon leaving one Side for another. It'd be a surprise close to shock for me if they didn't.

Or he just meant that Jetstone no longer had their heir, because that person was now on GK's side.

Many characteristics such as royalty are not immediately obvious, or there would have been no question in Ansom's mind that Jillian was a barbarian princess as opposed to just a barbarian. It's not a stretch to suppose that heir-itude is in the same category.

[Whispri]

It's made pretty clear here that heirs retain their status upon leaving one Side for another. It'd be a surprise close to shock for me if they didn't.

Or he just meant that Jetstone no longer had their heir, because that person was now on GK's side.

Many characteristics such as royalty are not immediately obvious, or there would have been no question in Ansom's mind that Jillian was a barbarian princess as opposed to just a barbarian. It's not a stretch to suppose that heir-itude is in the same category.

Nope, that cannot be the case as they already know what happens when a Side dies without an heir, it happened at Unaroyal as an example. Note, that in the plan they are discussing they woud have killed Slately without first capturing the City, so the lack of knowledge can't be blamed on the taking of the Capital.

Oh sure, Royalty must be hidden from statistic viewing. But a Barbarian heir to a fallen Side, is there any practical difference (life experience aside) from a Barbarian Chieftain who popped in the wilds? And it's not like Jillian was ever a Jetstone Unit.

I will add this: An heir is created by the expense of designation or by taking extra time to pop the Individual in question. Much like being a Warlord really. Would you expect Warlord status to be lost on turning?

[drachefly]

I don't follow. You were claiming it was clear that heirs retain their status upon leaving one side for another. In particular, you were claiming that as evidence. Parson doesn't know what will happen. Either the side ends (not heir of Jetstone any more), or the side converts (still heir of Jetstone).

And whether this heir status is simply detached from a side after changing sides... no clues there yet.

[Morni]

I would think heir status is more like a capital site. Yes she can be an heir.. but doesn't mean she's been designated as a heir.

If the side would end.. she would go and be her own side. But doesn't mean she's next in line to be an heir of the side.

Do you really think Stanley would trust Wanda that much, in his paranoid kind of view, if he knew that when he dies she becomes the leader of their side?

Plus we know that GK doesn't have an heir. The update when Hamster created the dragon finding group for Stanley

[Nnelg]

For all this talk of heirs... I believe that 'Heir' is a status that only applies if you're part of a side. If you're not you could still be a royal, and an ex-ruler or ex-heir, but there's simply nothing to inherit anymore. As for Jillian supposedly losing her heir status when captured, she already lost it back when Banhammer died, and she was made queen for however brief a moment (even if she wasn't paying attention). But I don't think the ex-ruler status matters either, as IIRC barbarian warlords that (literally) pop out of nowhere can start up sides too.

If a living heir were to be captured though, I would expect their heir status to be 'suppressed', such that if the ruler died (with no other heir) or the capitol was taken (with no backup capitol sites) then the side would die and they'd become a barbarian warlord in captivity.


But back on topic, I think that we're going to see real soon if predictamancy is actually infallible or not. I wonder if carnymancy might really be able to dispel it...

[davesnothere]

I just noticed on a re-read that Jeffichew (sp?) says aloud that Parson is off-turn.
I find it surprising that a Carnymancer could tell/know that without outside information.
We believe Charlie set him up to interfer, does this mean that Charlie figured out what Parson was up to, or did he overhear it in thinkmancy space?

[Aquillion]

The missing natural allies of GK are suddenly coming to mind... aren't they tunnelers? I remember an update where the sole remaining member was lying to Parson about something (how many of his tribe survived?). Now that all of the major characters are out of GK and in a ~safe place... cue sappers who drop the tower on top of Stanley. Parson will survive because he is a caster.

No, Parson was talking to the one Hobgobwin who survived (the one that lets them pop all the others), not a Gobwin. And he was lying about the circumstances under which Stanley came to power.

[0beron]

No, Parson was talking to the one Hobgobwin who survived (the one that lets them pop all the others), not a Gobwin. And he was lying about the circumstances under which Stanley came to power.

Right, which is still a cause for concern. Someone was speculating that there is something fishy about both of GK's natural allies. The Hobgowin lying about something in Stanlet's rise to power, and the present absence of Gowbins both suggest that something wicked is afoot.

[fehler]

Parson was managing Gobwin Knob long enough to have some non-caster dependent defenses in place. The triggered Dirtamancy he and Sizemore could come up with probably extends many, many hexes out. GK is under no immediate threat from Charley or anyone else on a headhunting mission.

Also, remember the veil at the beginning of this book? That wouldn't have worked if GK didn't have at least some archons and dwagons in reserve, otherwise someone with a lookamancer would say, "Hmm, somehow all of his aerial units have disappeared."

[Kreistor]

It's made pretty clear here that heirs retain their status upon leaving one Side for another. It'd be a surprise close to shock for me if they didn't.

That is hardly a conclusive statement by Parson. It is quite common for people to drop detail words to simplify conversation. "Former heir" turns into "heir" if both participants know the rules. Parson is speaking to Wanda, not the audience, so he doesn't have to be specific and perfectly accurate to rules. If people did have to be that specific, then we would need to see Slately declare Ossomer to be "non-heir" at some point whie Ossomer was in GK service in order to make Tremmenis heir, and that simply didn't happen.

So, sorry, for your belief to be true, you need more to happen than just Parson speaking in this way to Wanda.

[Whispri]

I don't follow. You were claiming it was clear that heirs retain their status upon leaving one side for another. In particular, you were claiming that as evidence. Parson doesn't know what will happen. Either the side ends (not heir of Jetstone any more), or the side converts (still heir of Jetstone).

And whether this heir status is simply detached from a side after changing sides... no clues there yet.

Mm-hmm, I'm claiming those things. Yep again, he doesn't know what would happen. Reason being, a Side being destroyed while their heir is part of the Side destroying them isn't something that happens very often. Which means the result of such a scenario is up in the air.

[Oberon]

I like the fact that muscle guy's tattoo can change expressions.

Oh, damn.. that's his arm.. no wonder that scene wasn't making any sense. From his posture and the direction of his head, he looked like he was carrying around a giant slug like the other caster with a groundhog. >.>

I thought so, too. It wasn't until I read PJ's post that I was all "Huh, who had a tattoo?" and went to see with a fresh perspective. Before that I was wondering just what the heck kind of critter he was carrying, and if we'd get to see it tangle with the groundhog. Which I wanted, a lot.

[Nnelg]

Parson was managing Gobwin Knob long enough to have some non-caster dependent defenses in place. The triggered Dirtamancy he and Sizemore could come up with probably extends many, many hexes out. GK is under no immediate threat from Charley or anyone else on a headhunting mission.

Except that we know that dirtamancy traps don't extend across multiple hexes, except for the uncroaked volcano thing. Doesn't mean Sizemore couldn't trap multiple hexes separately, though. (But really, I'll bet there's a time limit on those things.)

Also, remember the veil at the beginning of this book? That wouldn't have worked if GK didn't have at least some archons and dwagons in reserve, otherwise someone with a lookamancer would say, "Hmm, somehow all of his aerial units have disappeared."

So it wouldn't work on a side that has a lookamancer. Which Jetstone didn't. Charlie might be able to check with the 'Dish, but Slately wasn't exactly in a mood to listen to him at the time.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

My problem with Stanley falling is the Arkenhammer going into Charlie's hands. Even if he somehow manages to send it to Parson (by hat or something like that) we'd need someone else to attune to it.

Easy. Jillian.

[Nnelg]

Where's a thinkamancer when you need one? I require some brainbleach.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Look guys, the last time a group of sides tried to team up on attacking GK with overwhelming force, it all end in a massive ball of fire and Stanley coming out as victorious. What exactly makes you think Charlie is in such a hurry to risk losing another squadron of archons?

Jillian is quite good at taking down weakened targets I'll give her that. But Stanley by himself curbstomped Caesar, who on his turn can almost solo heavily defended cities by himself. And then Stanley surely still has a strong defensive retinue of heavies and titans know how much dirtymancer traps stacked. Let her charge head in. Not even her plot shield would save her then.

[effataigus]

Look guys, the last time a group of sides tried to team up on attacking GK with overwhelming force, it all end in a massive ball of fire and Stanley coming out as victorious. What exactly makes you think Charlie is in such a hurry to risk losing another squadron of archons?

The only reason he lost..?

... has left the building.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Look guys, the last time a group of sides tried to team up on attacking GK with overwhelming force, it all end in a massive ball of fire and Stanley coming out as victorious. What exactly makes you think Charlie is in such a hurry to risk losing another squadron of archons?

The only reason he lost..?

... has left the building.

And even if Charlie somehow knows that (he has no mancers to tell him what's happenning on the MK after all), he can't exactly teleport an archon fleet into GK right now, so plenty of time for Hamster to get back.