Summer Update - 022

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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:12 pm

moose o death wrote:dan i don't think stanley wants to rely on wanda's units. he's starting to look really worried that he's not in control of anything. maggies abused him, parson essentially quit from being chief warlord, wanda can raise her own army, the city popped but not to his tastes.

also wanda needs to be frontlines to decrypt, so we'll have to wait and see if stanley lets her off the leash. we already know she's not loyal to him. if stanley knew she'd be locked in a dungeon based on his previous outrage over her failling him.


Yes, Stanley is not comfortable with the situation, no more than most anyone would be at such abrupt changes in the order of things. He is comfortable enough with decrypted units to make Ansom a chief warlord, though, so he is apparently able to overcome misgivings when faced with sufficient potential benefits.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby shadow729 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:33 pm

Winged wrote:I think we are all kinda overplaying Charlies strangth. Yes he figured out the volcano going off, but maybe it was not so much an unheard of thing to do as it was somthing no one had expected to ever happen. What are the odds that they would have the right types of casters (one non-native) at the proper level, in the right place, with a dead volcano, AND the grit to blow up your own fort. Don't forget Parson got lucky, he could have died in the lava too had things gone differently. Running into this situation would be kinda like bumping into three ex-pro basketball players in a pick up game at the gym and getting totaly owned, no ya never saw it coming, but after it has happened I bet you figure it out pretty fast.

On top of this his dish gives him epic level information gathering skills, it's what he does, maybe the only thing he personaly does, we just don't know.

Having said all of this I will say that no one will be buying the info any times soon. After all Charlie himself said he is overcharging what people would pay, and as of this moment GW is in no one's crosshairs.


I don't know why we'd be overplaying a strength we really know almost nothing about. I mean, who really knows completely what the Arkendish does for Charlie? And I agree, all he's using is his powers of observation, which it's become clear may not be Stanley's strong point, but is certainly the strong point of other places, like Transylvito. The only reason Charlie is set up to have figured this out is because he was able to watch it via his eyes in the sky, but he didn't necessarily have to figure it out unless he has some wicked powers of deduction that only Parson seems to possess up to this point. So we don't know if the Arkendish somehow magnifies his ability to think outside the box. We don't know if it just magnifies his natural magic powers. And frankly, we don't even really know what those powers are.

Parson clearly thinks Charlie is something special and a force to be reckoned with, as does everyone else (by everyone, I mean within Erfworld), so that leads me to believe he probably is.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:49 pm

These were unusual circumstances indeed: the casters and their overlord survived because of the portal. Parson certainly didn't think he'd avoid being toasted. And the situation didn't still become a desperate one thanks to decrypting and the "windfall" of gems thanks to Sizemore's presence of mind.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Winged » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:22 pm

shadow729 wrote:
Winged wrote:I think we are all kinda overplaying Charlies strangth. Yes he figured out the volcano going off, but maybe it was not so much an unheard of thing to do as it was somthing no one had expected to ever happen. What are the odds that they would have the right types of casters (one non-native) at the proper level, in the right place, with a dead volcano, AND the grit to blow up your own fort. Don't forget Parson got lucky, he could have died in the lava too had things gone differently. Running into this situation would be kinda like bumping into three ex-pro basketball players in a pick up game at the gym and getting totaly owned, no ya never saw it coming, but after it has happened I bet you figure it out pretty fast.

On top of this his dish gives him epic level information gathering skills, it's what he does, maybe the only thing he personaly does, we just don't know.

Having said all of this I will say that no one will be buying the info any times soon. After all Charlie himself said he is overcharging what people would pay, and as of this moment GW is in no one's crosshairs.


I don't know why we'd be overplaying a strength we really know almost nothing about. I mean, who really knows completely what the Arkendish does for Charlie? And I agree, all he's using is his powers of observation, which it's become clear may not be Stanley's strong point, but is certainly the strong point of other places, like Transylvito. The only reason Charlie is set up to have figured this out is because he was able to watch it via his eyes in the sky, but he didn't necessarily have to figure it out unless he has some wicked powers of deduction that only Parson seems to possess up to this point. So we don't know if the Arkendish somehow magnifies his ability to think outside the box. We don't know if it just magnifies his natural magic powers. And frankly, we don't even really know what those powers are.

Parson clearly thinks Charlie is something special and a force to be reckoned with, as does everyone else (by everyone, I mean within Erfworld), so that leads me to believe he probably is.


How does parson think he is super dangerous? he made deals with him and even saught him out for help, sure he considers him a threat, but have we seen him give him any special treatment, does he seem to be afraid? Worried even? As you said we know almost nothing about him, but to assume that must mean he is powerful is like finding a weirdly shaped rock in your yard and assuming it is dangerously radioactive. We have seen that his dish gives him very powerful information based abilities, it's fair to say that is the primary function, just as stan's it controling dwagons, and the pliers bring back the dead, every tool seems to have a big main power, and so far what we have seen of the dish would leave it pretty well balenced with the other tools, soi unless his tool is significantly more evolved or adapted he is left to only his personal powers to make him a force to be feared, and frankly we have yet to see a single caster ho can activly swing large scail battles (combose of casters yes, but individualy no) and if he is a caster there is almost no chance he has powers that are not already reflected by his tool, just as Wanda's ability to make zombies is all but useless now that she has her tools.

Sure he might be a force to be reconed with, but as of now any speculation that attributes he is anything more than the canny buisnessman he has presented himself as , is subject to overplay his strangth. I'm working off of "what he has been observed as", not "he might be this or that"
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby vdragan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:48 pm

Alright, fine.. squash my pet theory =p. (i will make one final stab: wanda says that to the best of her knowledge there seems to be no limit to how many units she can decrypt, and we have not been told of a limit on the number of dwagons that Stanley can tame. however, it bears pointing out that both of those abilities have limits hard coded into them: the number of croaked units, and the number of dwagons respectively present in a certain area. charlie's "pimp my thinkamancy" arkendish has no such hard limit - thus it seems like it probably should have some form of limiting factor. why money and not 'juice'? just based on the fact that the arkenpliers don't seem to use up wanda's croakamancy juice)

As to Charlie's character, I'm not at all arguing that it's a tragic case of him desperately wanting to side with the non-Royals (or the Royals, or the giant marshmallows in the sky, or whatever), but not being able to because of his dependency on schmuckers. I'm just going backwards. What are mercenaries? Soldiers belonging to a side which needs money more than - or needs more money than can be obtained through - regular everyday warrin'. That covers "yo it's 16th century Europe, I'll lend you my army if you give me money" kind of mercenaries.

The other kind are the "guns for hire to the highest bidder" kind, which care much more about money then they do about ideology, and are generally portrayed as the jaded ex-soldier "when i was young i thought i was fighting for something", but now I know everyone is the same, Rambo- style mercenaries. This latter type is more what I see Charlie as being, but both kinds value money over anything other than survival (Charlie also hearts magic items, but you can easily see how he could've used the mathamancy bracer to make more money).

So, i ask myself, why the insistence on money? it comes up again and again with Charlie. TV as well, but less so. this is a story, after all, and though chekov's gun isn't a hard and fast rule, if one of the characters in the play keeps staring at the gun on the wall..you can probably safely bet it's gonna become important at some point (Though knowing rob, it's equally likely that it's going to be fired as it is that there's a whole whack-load of cocaine down the barrel, or ferrets, or something... cocaine ferrets)

Winged wrote:As you said we know almost nothing about him, but to assume that must mean he is powerful is like finding a weirdly shaped rock in your yard and assuming it is dangerously radioactive


Maggie pretty much told Parson that Charlie's radioactive, and time and time again he puts people into a corner in order to get more money out of them, but none of these people say "well fine, if that's how you wanna deal, maybe we'll march on your capital next" so we must assume he is a force to be reckoned with at least on par with the other 'big' powers.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:53 am

vdragan wrote:Alright, fine.. squash my pet theory =p. (i will make one final stab: wanda says that to the best of her knowledge there seems to be no limit to how many units she can decrypt, and we have not been told of a limit on the number of dwagons that Stanley can tame. however, it bears pointing out that both of those abilities have limits hard coded into them: the number of croaked units, and the number of dwagons respectively present in a certain area. charlie's "pimp my thinkamancy" arkendish has no such hard limit - thus it seems like it probably should have some form of limiting factor. why money and not 'juice'? just based on the fact that the arkenpliers don't seem to use up wanda's croakamancy juice)


The real issue, I believe, that we should address is that we really know very little of what the arkendish actually does: it seems to enhance thinkamantic abilities and probably is what allows him to hack the Eyebooks. From that, it's hard to pinpoint what sort of limits "should" be placed on it.

vdragan wrote:The other kind are the "guns for hire to the highest bidder" kind, which care much more about money then they do about ideology, and are generally portrayed as the jaded ex-soldier "when i was young i thought i was fighting for something", but now I know everyone is the same, Rambo- style mercenaries. This latter type is more what I see Charlie as being, but both kinds value money over anything other than survival (Charlie also hearts magic items, but you can easily see how he could've used the mathamancy bracer to make more money).


Charlie, at the moment, seems like the third kind of mercenary... one who's in it for the profits, who will fight for whatever side pays the most, and who is interested in expanding his capabilities for the purposes of charging more in the future. I freely admit, though, that there could certainly be more there than meets the eye—especially since we've never even seen the man/woman/tuna.

vdragan wrote:So, i ask myself, why the insistence on money? it comes up again and again with Charlie. TV as well, but less so. this is a story, after all, and though chekov's gun isn't a hard and fast rule, if one of the characters in the play keeps staring at the gun on the wall..you can probably safely bet it's gonna become important at some point (Though knowing rob, it's equally likely that it's going to be fired as it is that there's a whole whack-load of cocaine down the barrel, or ferrets, or something... cocaine ferrets)


For all we know Charlie's saving up for retirement, to fund the takeover of a kingdom, to pay for a sex-change spell, to pay the ransom of his darling children... the point is that there are plenty of reasons to want or need money, including just for the challenge of obtaining it.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby BarGamer » Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:32 pm

vdragan wrote:*lightbulb turn on*. Money. Charlie has to need Schmuckers to operate the Arkendish. It would go a long way to explain his mercenary nature. Although, it could just be that unlike Stanley, Charlie doesn't want to cause a ruckus. Stanley stands up and yells "Royalty is obsolete" (well.. that was actually Parson, but you know what I mean).. Charlie slowly makes himself rich and indispensable. He does seem to want power, just like Stanley - he's just much more sly about how he goes about getting it.


I'll concede that one needs Shmuckers, or Rands, or whatever kind of currency to pay for one's upkeep, but to power their Arkentool? That doesn't make any sense. What money did Stanley have when he was just a lowly Pikeman? What money was Wanda drawing on when she first used the Arkenpliers? If Charlie is using his ArkenDish for all his Thinkamancy needs, then given his probable number of Archons, allies, and enemies, he's always riding the razor's edge of sustainability. In which case, for a Royal or group of Royals to remove Charlie as a probable threat, all they have to do is boycott him, wait for him to blow his money in trying to find new contracts, progressively disbanding Archons as turns go on, then conquer him when he's broke. It's not a sustainable business model.

Take the Arkenpliers for an example. If units decrypted by the Tool don't have an upkeep, but there IS a (probably high for game balance) cost associated with using the Tool in this manner, a little Mathamancy would quickly determine that Decrypting is not economically feasible, or all that great of an advantage. Even more so if you have to keep using the Tool to maintain control of your Decrypted. And what about when Ansom had them? I speculated that when he first got them, he experimented with it CONSTANTLY. Depending on whether attempts to cast with it or using it as a melee weapon counts as "operating it," Ansom would probably have considered the Tool a "white elephant:" Too valuable to get rid of, but too expensive to keep for long. One does not holster a white elephant on one's belt, and use it to "dust" hordes of Uncroaked. It would have been another indication of Ansom's questionable judgement, and would almost certainly have come up when his Coalition was taking potshots at him.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:51 pm

At the moment, sure 'Decrypt' is nice... But until we test those units we wont know if it's broken or just useful. Example, it would be broken if after decrypted units died they could be raised continuously with 'decrypt'. However if once a 'decrypted unit' dies it's dead it's simply an upgraded uncroaking; especially since the unit no longer has an upkeep.

Now if decrypt is as usable as you want, I see no reason why you wouldnt have your own decrypted units croak newly created units for XP and then decrypt the new units so you do not have to pay for future upkeep costs. Save for morale/loyalty issues XD
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby BarGamer » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:26 pm

Lothmar wrote:Now if decrypt is as usable as you want, I see no reason why you wouldnt have your own decrypted units croak newly created units for XP and then decrypt the new units so you do not have to pay for future upkeep costs. Save for morale/loyalty issues XD


That, and Parson would throw a massive hissy-fit.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:28 pm

Lothmar wrote:At the moment, sure 'Decrypt' is nice... But until we test those units we wont know if it's broken or just useful. Example, it would be broken if after decrypted units died they could be raised continuously with 'decrypt'. However if once a 'decrypted unit' dies it's dead it's simply an upgraded uncroaking; especially since the unit no longer has an upkeep.

Now if decrypt is as usable as you want, I see no reason why you wouldnt have your own decrypted units croak newly created units for XP and then decrypt the new units so you do not have to pay for future upkeep costs. Save for morale/loyalty issues XD


Don't forget that "turning" units is expensive or complicated enough that it is reserved for only the most valuable of units, and those units still, if memory serves, may still not be as reliable as one might hope. Decryption means changing the logistics thanks to zero upkeep and also means that a victory that might have previously netted you a few new units will now allow you to gain a whole new army's or city's worth of troops.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby vdragan » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:25 am

DevilDan wrote:
Vlad Dragan wrote: *rampant speculation based on features of the Arkentools, selectively using similarities that support the theory*


The real issue, I believe, that we should address is that we really know very little of what the arkendish actually does: it seems to enhance thinkamantic abilities and probably is what allows him to hack the Eyebooks. From that, it's hard to pinpoint what sort of limits "should" be placed on it.

Vlad Dragan wrote: blah blah blah charlie likes money.. blah blah.. chekov's gun.. blah cocaine ferrets


For all we know Charlie's saving up for retirement, to fund the takeover of a kingdom, to pay for a sex-change spell, to pay the ransom of his darling children... the point is that there are plenty of reasons to want or need money, including just for the challenge of obtaining it.


So these are actually the same argument, which is "listen, guys, but it could be something else we've never heard about". Yeah. True. Fairplay. But that's not how this game works (and by game I mean 'Cocaine Ferrets TM - speculative fun on a story that's not finished for the whole family'). The way it works is you come up with a theory that fits the facts so far and ties together some things that seem to be stressed in the story. Because of Chekov's gun. What you're basically saying here is that we know so little about Charlie that all speculation is equally probable, which I don't think is the case.

DevilDan wrote:Charlie, at the moment, seems like the third kind of mercenary... one who's in it for the profits, who will fight for whatever side pays the most, and who is interested in expanding his capabilities for the purposes of charging more in the future. I freely admit, though, that there could certainly be more there than meets the eye—especially since we've never even seen the man/woman/tuna.


You're right: that is, in fact, the other possibility that I can see based on the story so far. He just plain old likes money. That could just be his quirk.

BarGamer wrote:I'll concede that one needs Shmuckers, or Rands, or whatever kind of currency to pay for one's upkeep, but to power their Arkentool? etc.


Well done. That was a convincing argument as to why the other Arkentools wouldn't need Schmuckers for upkeep. I salute you. That's also not what I was talking about. I was talking about the Arkendish in particular, and how it COULD (not MUST, but COULD) be powered by money to make up for its lack of a hard coded limit.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby moose o death » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:54 am

to predict it's limits we need to know what the thing does first. likewise for the other tools. we KNOW the hammer has a 20% chance of popping pidgeons when cracking walnuts, and we KNOW it tames dwagons and can make stanley gravity resistant. we have speculated it can cause electrical damage to enemies at range or on impact based on a light show or two.

we KNOW the arkenpliers can decrypt dead units. with zero upkeep.

we only have speculation on charlies arkentool.

we also don't know if the tools are matched to a unit, or simply the unit can attune to any tool they come across and it will enable that units tool abilities. no tool abilities, not attuned.

the biggest restriction you could place on a communications based device like a dish is range. less range...less useful. if the dish is really a one trick pony and only does thinkamancy then it will be subject to range limitations
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Unclever title » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:16 am

vdragan wrote:
BarGamer wrote:I'll concede that one needs Shmuckers, or Rands, or whatever kind of currency to pay for one's upkeep, but to power their Arkentool? etc.


Well done. That was a convincing argument as to why the other Arkentools wouldn't need Schmuckers for upkeep. I salute you. That's also not what I was talking about. I was talking about the Arkendish in particular, and how it COULD (not MUST, but COULD) be powered by money to make up for its lack of a hard coded limit.


How can we know it has no hardcoded limit? The Arkenhammer is limited by it's resources, needs Dwagons to tame, needs walnuts/birds to transform into birds/walnuts, granted I have no idea about the "van de graf" spell (if it is a spell as it appears to be). The Arkenpliers are limited due to the inherent limitations of Croakamancy no corpses means no decrypted.

As such the Arkendish which as Maggie said, "affords [Charlie] a command of thinkamancy that [Maggie] cannot match," is no doubt limited by the inherent limitations of thinkamancy. A known limitation is that it cannot change a Unit's nature, in order to command a unit it must already have a predisposition for acting that kind of way. Distance is probably not a limitation for Charlie at least, it would be pretty impractical for communication purposes and Maggie was able to establish pretty good communication with Ansom but I don't know how many hexes away that was. If range is a limitation for thinkamancy normally this may in fact be the single greatest potential advantage of the Arkendish.

Thinkamancy (at least some) spells can be broken and considering the amount of thinkamancy Charlie does on a regular basis then if he does get beaten by another thinkamancer (highly unlikely but I'd say possible) then I would wager purely hypothetical money then he would die due to the serious mental strains involved, maybe involving some kind of thinkamancy explosion or something. In fact using the Arkendish as he does while granting him unparalleled ability may put a severe mental strain on Charlie, this might explain his "strangeness" to some extent, prolonged use may drive him insane.

There are other limitations as well. The Arkendish gives Charlie a powerful command over information and he knows how to manipulate it but this is limited by the intel of other sides dealing with Charlie, if they have enough info they can see where he's right or wrong.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:12 pm

Unclever title wrote:
Thinkamancy (at least some) spells can be broken and considering the amount of thinkamancy Charlie does on a regular basis then if he does get beaten by another thinkamancer (highly unlikely but I'd say possible) then I would wager purely hypothetical money then he would die due to the serious mental strains involved, maybe involving some kind of thinkamancy explosion or something. In fact using the Arkendish as he does while granting him unparalleled ability may put a severe mental strain on Charlie, this might explain his "strangeness" to some extent, prolonged use may drive him insane.

True, but lets not forget that as Maggie explained earlier. Master class thinkamancers can easily cast spells so that they take little to nothing on broken thinkamancy spells and that the cord instead snaps in the direction of the target not the caster. So, sure you broke free but you're either dead or a vegetable for awhile so I dont have to worry about you ruining current plans.

Or were you basically saying that if they're good enough to break his thinkamancy with thier own, then they're probably good enough to rebound the directed strain back to Charlie?
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Unclever title » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:07 pm

Lothmar wrote:Or were you basically saying that if they're good enough to break his thinkamancy with thier own, then they're probably good enough to rebound the directed strain back to Charlie?


Something like that, but I was thinking that under a thinkamancy battle of such epic proportions there would likely be irreparable damage to both parties simply by the magnitude of the sheer power involved.

But it is an unlikely situation both by Charlie's mastery and that thinkamancers (so far) don't seem like the type to fight straightforward battles. But I suppose one might be ordered to do so.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby BarGamer » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:06 pm

Unclever title wrote:How can we know it has no hardcoded limit? The Arkenhammer is limited by it's resources, needs Dwagons to tame, needs walnuts/birds to transform into birds/walnuts, granted I have no idea about the "van de graf" spell (if it is a spell as it appears to be). The Arkenpliers are limited due to the inherent limitations of Croakamancy no corpses means no decrypted.

As such the Arkendish which as Maggie said, "affords [Charlie] a command of thinkamancy that [Maggie] cannot match," is no doubt limited by the inherent limitations of thinkamancy. A known limitation is that it cannot change a Unit's nature, in order to command a unit it must already have a predisposition for acting that kind of way. Distance is probably not a limitation for Charlie at least, it would be pretty impractical for communication purposes and Maggie was able to establish pretty good communication with Ansom but I don't know how many hexes away that was. If range is a limitation for thinkamancy normally this may in fact be the single greatest potential advantage of the Arkendish.

Thinkamancy (at least some) spells can be broken and considering the amount of thinkamancy Charlie does on a regular basis then if he does get beaten by another thinkamancer (highly unlikely but I'd say possible) then I would wager purely hypothetical money then he would die due to the serious mental strains involved, maybe involving some kind of thinkamancy explosion or something. In fact using the Arkendish as he does while granting him unparalleled ability may put a severe mental strain on Charlie, this might explain his "strangeness" to some extent, prolonged use may drive him insane.

There are other limitations as well. The Arkendish gives Charlie a powerful command over information and he knows how to manipulate it but this is limited by the intel of other sides dealing with Charlie, if they have enough info they can see where he's right or wrong.


As we've seen, Dwagons can be popped, and presumably tamed, with no mention as to upkeep. Decrypted needs dead or possibly Uncroaked, and has no upkeep. Sizemore's ArkenShovel, if you'll forgive the stretch, seems to create them from boop, with no mention of upkeep. Why should we expect any extraneous limitations on the Archons, if indeed they are popped/tamed (no jokes, please)/whatever by the ArkenDish? Maybe a certain side has his kidnapped heir/King/Royal/way home as ransom, and he needs that much money to pay them off. Maybe he's just trying for a money Achievement. Maybe he's just a greedy Magnificent Bastard. At this point, his desire for money is a red herring unless we find out more.

We might as well speculate that Decrypted "steal" upkeep from the Side that they're originally on, unless it's your own side maybe, and I have about as much evidence as you do. The original Charlie cultivates an aura of mystery to the point that there's not even a wikipedia article on him. We never see the original's nor the Erfworld's version's face. Unless and until we find out more, any speculation as to the ArkenDish's requirements is fruitless. I don't think we'll EVER find out.

As for a hard-coded limit, we've seen dozens of dwagons so far, almost as many Archons, and "an army's" worth of Decrypted. We have seen no evidence for a "Minion Cap," if you'll forgive the Guild Wars reference. Unless you can hover your mouse over portions of Klog 2 and get a helpful popup box, you have very little to support your theory, not that all that many rules apply when it comes to the ArkenTools ANYWAY.

You know what? Post your theory on the wiki, and see how fast it takes to be tagged Canon or Epileptic Tree. I'm done.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:27 pm

Actually I like the idea that they're not really without upkeep they just leech it from the previous side, that just seems overly hilarious. It would be even funnier if the unit still counted in thier ques but they couldnt control/disband it etc so if there was a troop cap the decrypted troop would count against it but not GK's. XD
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby raphfrk » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:23 pm

Lothmar wrote:Actually I like the idea that they're not really without upkeep they just leech it from the previous side, that just seems overly hilarious. It would be even funnier if the unit still counted in thier ques but they couldnt control/disband it etc so if there was a troop cap the decrypted troop would count against it but not GK's. XD


That would have an interesting side effect, if you destroy a side, then all decrypted from that side de-pop.
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Lothmar » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:38 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Lothmar wrote:Actually I like the idea that they're not really without upkeep they just leech it from the previous side, that just seems overly hilarious. It would be even funnier if the unit still counted in thier ques but they couldnt control/disband it etc so if there was a troop cap the decrypted troop would count against it but not GK's. XD


That would have an interesting side effect, if you destroy a side, then all decrypted from that side de-pop.


Even awesomer! It still registers the side active just with a permanent alliance to your side... "You will be assimilated."
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Re: Summer Update - 022

Postby Unclever title » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:23 pm

BarGamer wrote:As we've seen, Dwagons can be popped, and presumably tamed, with no mention as to upkeep. Decrypted needs dead or possibly Uncroaked, and has no upkeep. Sizemore's ArkenShovel, if you'll forgive the stretch, seems to create them from boop, with no mention of upkeep. Why should we expect any extraneous limitations on the Archons, if indeed they are popped/tamed (no jokes, please)/whatever by the ArkenDish? Maybe a certain side has his kidnapped heir/King/Royal/way home as ransom, and he needs that much money to pay them off. Maybe he's just trying for a money Achievement. Maybe he's just a greedy Magnificent Bastard. At this point, his desire for money is a red herring unless we find out more.

We might as well speculate that Decrypted "steal" upkeep from the Side that they're originally on, unless it's your own side maybe, and I have about as much evidence as you do. The original Charlie cultivates an aura of mystery to the point that there's not even a wikipedia article on him. We never see the original's nor the Erfworld's version's face. Unless and until we find out more, any speculation as to the ArkenDish's requirements is fruitless. I don't think we'll EVER find out.

As for a hard-coded limit, we've seen dozens of dwagons so far, almost as many Archons, and "an army's" worth of Decrypted. We have seen no evidence for a "Minion Cap," if you'll forgive the Guild Wars reference. Unless you can hover your mouse over portions of Klog 2 and get a helpful popup box, you have very little to support your theory, not that all that many rules apply when it comes to the ArkenTools ANYWAY.

You know what? Post your theory on the wiki, and see how fast it takes to be tagged Canon or Epileptic Tree. I'm done.


I think I may have used the word hardcoded incorrectly or something, I only meant to say that like the other Arkentools the Arkendish is likely limited by the way in which it works (granted I was assuming it works in ways related to thinkamancy). Of course Dwagons can be popped, but if you don't have one at the moment it can't be tamed because it's not there, that's all that I meant by the "needs Dwagons to tame" same as with the walnuts and that you can't decrypt what's not dead. All of these limitations can be surpassed by strategy but they can also be exploited by strategy (granted it might be very difficult). So they are still limitations. This is how I think the Arkentools are balanced with respect to each other, and how they do not guarantee victory.

I'm fully ready (and willing) to accept that if Stanley came a across a hex with 300 wild Dwagons in it that he could tame them all with a single raise of the hammer, it's just that he most likely can't pop 300 Dwagons in a single turn despite the fact that he may badly need to. If anything we've seen that a dwagon takes somewhere comparable to about a week's worth of turns because we've only seen one dwagon popped in the entire timespan of the Battle for Gobwin Knob.

The rest of your post I can only assume was not in response to mine, as I never said anything about Archons.
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