Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:05 pm

I think the figure in the tower is just some recorder/monitor device produced by whatever mancy or bought from the MK. We have no idea of the magic capabilities of Haffaton beyond Olive and Wanda.
But just the news getting should screw Jillian's plan.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby name lips » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:57 am

BCCroaker wrote:I think the figure in the tower is just some recorder/monitor device produced by whatever mancy or bought from the MK. We have no idea of the magic capabilities of Haffaton beyond Olive and Wanda.
But just the news getting should screw Jillian's plan.

My vote is also for some sort of surveillance device.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Whispri » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:56 am

Just a thought, but if Haffaton have a Luckmancer, then allowing the slaughter of disposables would work in their favour, using up the bad luck.

Another thought, filling the Tower and Dungeon with horribly leathal traps then sprinkling, cheap, weak Units throughout to ensure an attacker would have to brave those traps to take the City would be a pretty nasty defence.

kagato23 wrote:
Whispri wrote:That Haffaton banner... the similarities betwen it and the livery future era Wanda uses... Well it's short of her actively still fighting in Haffaton colours, but it's pretty boopin' close. In fact, if it wasn't for future era Wanda having to use Stanley's banner, I'm not sure there'd be a difference.

It could go the other way as well... I doubt it looked like that before Wanda was on the side. It could be that HER livery is affecting her side.

Well yes, the Uncroaked is almost certainly in the Banner in honour of Wanda. But do you think she selected the Banner? And where's the tribute to Goodminton? Did Wanda ever voice any objection to fighting under the banner of Saint Shuttlecock? Or even Saint Skull?

vintermann wrote:Seems unlikely. One possibility is that Wanda is in the tower, has already turned, and the poor zombies about to be dusted by Bart are actually allied. Friendly fire seems to be quite possible in Erfworld

I don't believe that is possible, becauase of this and all the comments on seeing Frenemy Units as 'Allied', then as 'Enemy' as alliance is broken. And if Haffaton and Wanda had already fallen out with no thought given to outsiders, why wait for Faq to show?

Kreistor wrote:Plants may not be units, but may be a type of Trap. Traps have been mentioned before, in reference to the Dirtamancy trap that was the volcano eruption.

And, no, the figure in the window does not have to be Wanda for uncroaked to be present, and given the weakness and lack of stacking/leadership, I'd say she is most certainly nowhere near this place. We've seen uncroaked in hexes where she was not present before.

Jillian did call them Units though.

Well no it doesn't, but present or not, there are a couple of possible benefits to putting up disorganised resistance in this stage of the Battle. Firstly, the enemy C.O. was showing (uncharacteristic) caution, the easy victory in the courtyard has dispelled that caution, in effect, baiting the hook. Secondly, (and this one is a bit more shakey) given that Haffaton would know they'd lost a City to a Side called Faq if Jillian sacked one of their Cities, might the same be true of the result of an engagement?

Nnelg wrote:But what about "because they're the giant in the playground"? (no pun intended, Rich's alias is just the perfect metaphor)

They're a threat to all their neighbors, so is "dealing with a common threat" a good enough reason?

That's sizeist!

They are no threat at all in the scenario I have raised, for the scenario I have raised is one in which Jilllian's (horribly misplaced) belief in Haffaton's weakness is entirely accurate. So... non-evil reason?

MonteCristo wrote:We have seen bits of evidence to show that what Jillian thinks is the case. We have seen that haffaton's people find uncroaked distasteful but find them necessary for their side; this is likely because of their low upkeep... We even actually have evidence that this isn't just a recent capture when you consider that the uncroaked present are heavily decayed which implies that they have been there for a while.

There is likely a reason why Haffaton's size is considered absurb; namely that sides probably never get that big because they find it too difficult to maintain that size. Which is why they would use the mechanic to spin off a new side when a side gets too big

Its a side that she has been told WILL exterminate them if Faq doesn't do anything..

Jillian's obsession? Seems your hate for jillian has led you to forget that Banhammer is the king and has final say in all matters. This is Not a Jillian issue but an issue for all of Faq. The king is the one who ordered that Jillian stop her mercenary work so that she could concentrate on finding a new capitol. Jillian has no choice in the matter... Those units are facing disbandment because King Banhammer ordered an end to all mercenary work to pursue a very futile evacuation plan. Jillian would rather pursue more realistic plans like ending Haffaton's threat to her side once and for all; hell her alternate evacuation plan would have even been a better idea than what Banhammer has her doing

And we have seen how haffaton operates... Goodmitten had grown small and weak, but still they were a target for haffaton. Goodmitten also did not outright reject haffaton's offer for wanda, but instead of pursuing peace plans, they decided to croak the chief warlord with a sneak attack taking advantage of his love; that's right they use "love" to kill people.

A lot of people in Erfworld have an irrational hate for Croakamancy, this was made very clear during Wanda's trip to the Magick kingdom earlier in Book Zero. Yes Wanda is clearly very important to Haffaton. She's responsible for most of their conquests according to the rumours and her Uncroaked are their face, that speaks for itself. As for the status of the decayed Units, their lack freshness is no indication of the length of time they've been in the City, they can after all, move.

Yes, there are known to be difficulties. And yes, many Sides deal with these difficulties (and heirs eager for the top job) by forming a Tribe. Fact is though, Jillian has never had to face the problem and has no idea what loopholes and exploits may be found relating to that problem. There may even come a point where haing 'x' number of Cities grants a bonus of some kind, who'd know 'til they reached the magic number? Nevermind the thought of the servants Goodminton and Jetstone seem to have and muscle powered agriculture in secured regions.

Irrelevant. If they are as weak as Jillian supposes, they are no threat. No non-evil reason to attack them has been provided

... For a start, Jillian's lunatic plan to wage war on Haffaton had more ifs in it than she has limbs. Beyond that: Some pertinent excerpts from the Book Zero update prior to this one. "Only she wasn’t looking too hard. What would be the point? This area was closer to Haffaton territory than Faq was. It might even be Haffaton territory." "She just needed to know how far around it was. It was getting ludicrous. “We have to know where Haffaton is, so we can go looking for a site where it isn’t.” That was her flimsy explanation, and none of her warlords challenged it. But really, at this point Jillian viewed circumnavigating Haffaton as her personal quest." So yeah. Jillian is not searching for a Capital Site, she is wasting time, money and ultimately lives in a vanity quest.

Goodminton and Haffaton had been at war before Goodminton became weak, given that Haffaton helped destroy the rest of the Croatan Tribe, they were likely enemies even then. As for Tommy, he had made it very clear that no deal could happen while he lived, Wanda offered to accept it after all. In fact, Tommy was still planning to take the City, he may even have succeeded if he'd had another Turn to try it.

0beron wrote:Impossible, if it were Wanda, Jillian would see stats, regardless of what side Wanda is defined as.

Why so? Leaving aside that a statless Unit doesn't have to mean offworlder, if Foolamancy can turn a Unit invisible, why should it not be able to hide Wanda's stats?

Saladman wrote:The decayed unit alone sounds like what Wanda might choose for her personal livery, which casters commonly get to put on units they create. So I'm not too surprised she kept a variant of it. The Haffaton - Peace motto, and probably the pink flowers too, sound like Olive's influence on Haffaton's flag. But this raises a question that took a while to grow on me. What did it take for a side that once abhorred Croakamancy and valued peace to incorporate the livery of a captured Croakamancer into their official side's banner? What does it say that their Chief Caster is otherwise influencing their flag, rather than it being a legacy of their ruler's personality or livery? I'm thinking Chief Hippiemancer Olive is the real power in Haffaton, from determining strategy and force composition to openly "suggesting" the banner used. Which is... interesting. I mean, we never saw their ruler on-screen, and we did know Olive was powerful and popular, but I didn't realize how much. Or do they trust Wanda as much as they value her?

Would it have been her choice of livery pre-Haffaton? As I mentioned somewhere above, she could have included a tribute to her fallen family but she didn't. Before this update I could have chalked her livery up to the default reason of liking skulls and flowers, but after this?

As for why they put boney on it, while it's true Olive seemed to like her, it shouldn't be forgotten that the stories Jillian's heard of her attribute most of Haffaton's conquests to Wanda. That sort of thing gets acknowledged. Unless you're Stanley.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Salem » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:42 pm

I'm pretty sure murder committed at peace talks whether or not there will be no agreement is the kind of habit that doesn't count as being evil. Heck, isn't that basically join us or die?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Whispri » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:07 pm

Salem wrote:I'm pretty sure murder committed at peace talks whether or not there will be no agreement is the kind of habit that doesn't count as being evil. Heck, isn't that basically join us or die?

Nope, just 'die'. If a habit doesn't count as being evil does that make it good? ;) Anway, like I said, Tommy was planning to storm the City under that flag of truce and his plan may have worked, so he wasn't exactly blameless on that front.

That whole thing may have been about protecting Wanda, without Tommy there was only one choice for designation for example.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Salem » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:30 pm

Whispri wrote:
Salem wrote:I'm pretty sure murder committed at peace talks whether or not there will be no agreement is the kind of habit that doesn't count as being evil. Heck, isn't that basically join us or die?

Nope, just 'die'. If a habit doesn't count as being evil does that make it good? ;) Anway, like I said, Tommy was planning to storm the City under that flag of truce and his plan may have worked, so he wasn't exactly blameless on that front.

That whole thing may have been about protecting Wanda, without Tommy there was only one choice for designation for example.


I don't remember if tommy actually attempted that because if he didn't he IS blameless as thoughts and tossing around ideas and not acting on them is thought police only territory.

Protecting someone through murder is still murder. Say I kill an innocent child to protect another innocent child who I think is more important, is that okay?

Also I don't think everything falls on the moral spectrum, but I also don't think Haffiton is good, it seems pretty clear that noone likes them and it doesn't seem like EVERYONE they've conquered to become the largest side in their time, possibly ever, started the fight. In fact the fact that FAQ is worried about them at all for any reason would make one assume that they have reason to believe they might be an agressor.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:51 pm

Whispri wrote:A lot of people in Erfworld have an irrational hate for Croakamancy, this was made very clear during Wanda's trip to the Magick kingdom earlier in Book Zero. Yes Wanda is clearly very important to Haffaton. She's responsible for most of their conquests according to the rumours and her Uncroaked are their face, that speaks for itself. As for the status of the decayed Units, their lack freshness is no indication of the length of time they've been in the City, they can after all, move.


That is beside the point. the point is the fact that haffaton is using a unit they find unpleasant. The only reason a side would use a unit type that they do not like is because they find a great deal of NEED for it. If Haffaton is doing just fine in terms of upkeep then NOTHING is forcing them to use uncroaked and therefore they do not need wanda and her lads. The simple fact that Haffaton uses the uncroaked is indication that they have NEED of them and one thing that uncroaked provide is low upkeep forces. Hence how their common usuage in haffatonn is evidence that haffaton is having trouble keeping up with the upkeep for their absurdly large side.

Irrelevant. If they are as weak as Jillian supposes, they are no threat. No non-evil reason to attack them has been provided


Even a weak side can still croak you if you are not careful; and the weak city does not change the fact that haffaton managed to grow to such an absurd size... Marie has already predicted that it would happen and thus Jillian has reason to think that it is very possible if not likely to happen if Faq doesn't do anything to circumvent it

... For a start, Jillian's lunatic plan to wage war on Haffaton had more ifs in it than she has limbs. Beyond that: Some pertinent excerpts from the Book Zero update prior to this one. "Only she wasn’t looking too hard. What would be the point? This area was closer to Haffaton territory than Faq was. It might even be Haffaton territory." "She just needed to know how far around it was. It was getting ludicrous. “We have to know where Haffaton is, so we can go looking for a site where it isn’t.” That was her flimsy explanation, and none of her warlords challenged it. But really, at this point Jillian viewed circumnavigating Haffaton as her personal quest." So yeah. Jillian is not searching for a Capital Site, she is wasting time, money and ultimately lives in a vanity quest.


Jillian's not really trying because she KNOWS that Banhammer's plan is terrible. They asked her to search for a needle in a hay stack when they don't even know if there is a needle in the hay stack to begin with; asking her to search for something incredible difficult to find that may not even exist. It can not work; even if such a capitol site existed it could take thousands of turns to find it if it could be found by just randomly searching around; i mean hell Stanely left Faq's old captial site in ruins and unprotected and yet no one ever stumbled upon it. Its the worst possible plan and its the plan thats wasting time, money and lives. Trying to decapitate haffaton may have its flaws but it is a FAR more realistic plan that has a chance of working; and hell one thing we know of from the future is that Faq outlasted the existence of Haffaton AND took their caster; which makes it sound like something similar to the decapitation plan was what worked out in the end.

Granted though, i think the plan Jillian should have really played more was her evacuation plan where they create a big armada and decapitate some other side that's easy to knock over and not too far away... That was probably the most realistic plan; followed by trying to find a way to defeat haffaton first... Banhammer's plan comes in dead last because its not even a viable plan.

Goodminton and Haffaton had been at war before Goodminton became weak, given that Haffaton helped destroy the rest of the Croatan Tribe, they were likely enemies even then.


So? Haffaton had them pushed into a corner and had them weak... if Haffaton was really the good side it claims to be it could have ended the fighting right there and then; there was no need to keep going until the side was extinguished. They could have called for a non-aggression pact at any time and they did not; they could have kept pursuing the peace plan but they did not; in the end, just extermination

As for Tommy, he had made it very clear that no deal could happen while he lived, Wanda offered to accept it after all. In fact, Tommy was still planning to take the City, he may even have succeeded if he'd had another Turn to try it.


Irrelevant because Haffaton did not know this about Tommy. Haffaton had no knowledge of Tommy's scheming; Goodmitten kept such details to themselves and thus haffaton knew only what they told them; namely that they needed to deal with an immediate crisis back home and that they would consider haffaton's offer. It was under THAT pretext, the pretext that told haffaton that peace was still on the table, that Haffaton chose to croak Tommy. Hell when you consider that Olive had to put on the poison lipstick before she met with them, you can tell that they were planning to betray them before they even got their answer... In fact Olive's song even hints that Haffaton had chosen to screw the peace talks and take out goodmitten even though Tommy had done nothing more than ask for one more turn to get guidance from their overlord. Its true Tommy was scheming, but haffaton did not know this; they just simply lost their patience and decided to croak tommy at the end of the peace talk.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Salem » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:50 am

I always read it that haffaton had no intention of letting them live, it was just avoiding taking any damage and was going to let their enemies pick them off or wait till later to do it themselves. I always read them as a very sinister side. Untrustworthy sorts.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:40 pm

Salem wrote:I always read it that haffaton had no intention of letting them live, it was just avoiding taking any damage and was going to let their enemies pick them off or wait till later to do it themselves. I always read them as a very sinister side. Untrustworthy sorts.

Same here... Its suggested that Haffaton had been receiving tips from goodmitten's "allies" and that they later went and formed an allaince with haffaton. With how easily those allies were able to invade and pose a threat, it seems to me that their was a loop hole in haffaton's generous offer; Namely the alliance would protect goodmitten from a direct haffaton attack but it would not protect them from their former allies. After the alliance those two sides would break their alliance with goodmitten and strike them down knowing that haffaton has no interest in avenging them... As it was said, Haffaton is a side that wins without fighting
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Salem » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:54 pm

Since Haffaton wins without fighting I wonder if they poison rulers without heirs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:05 pm

Oh I sincerely doubt they ALWAYS win by not fighting. They just took that approach with Goodminton because it deprived the enemy of their best asset, the Uncroaked. And I'm sure there are other side strategies it works well against. It could work against many types of sides that are low on cash...you camp in their city but prevent them from attacking as their treasury dwindles and units start to disband.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby drachefly » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:21 am

It's Goodminton, not Goodmitten.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Whispri » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:14 pm

Salem wrote:I don't remember if tommy actually attempted that because if he didn't he IS blameless as thoughts and tossing around ideas and not acting on them is thought police only territory.

Protecting someone through murder is still murder. Say I kill an innocent child to protect another innocent child who I think is more important, is that okay?

Also I don't think everything falls on the moral spectrum, but I also don't think Haffiton is good, it seems pretty clear that noone likes them and it doesn't seem like EVERYONE they've conquered to become the largest side in their time, possibly ever, started the fight. In fact the fact that FAQ is worried about them at all for any reason would make one assume that they have reason to believe they might be an agressor.

Well really now, it was his boopin' battle plan. Only the betrayal of his allies stopped him from carrying it out.

There are no children in Erfworld. Tommy was a soldier, Olive's enemy, fighting in a war that never ends. Killing one enemy soldier so an enemy soldier you like gets to live, well...

Jillian likes to murder people, her Father likes to hide from the World, between the two of them... As for the conquest, the only numbers given for the size of their holdings is 'between 40 and 50 Cities' , if accurate, that's probably less than a dozen Sides they've knocked over. I suspect that they're far larger, but all the same, they're a patient Side and every Side we've seen has been quite Warlike, that's why the stories Jillian has heard of other bubble Sides always end sadly. And it only takes one Warlord as stupid as Jillian to trigger the avalanche.

MonteCristo wrote:That is beside the point. the point is the fact that haffaton is using a unit they find unpleasant. The only reason a side would use a unit type that they do not like is because they find a great deal of NEED for it. If Haffaton is doing just fine in terms of upkeep then NOTHING is forcing them to use uncroaked and therefore they do not need wanda and her lads. The simple fact that Haffaton uses the uncroaked is indication that they have NEED of them and one thing that uncroaked provide is low upkeep forces. Hence how their common usuage in haffatonn is evidence that haffaton is having trouble keeping up with the upkeep for their absurdly large side.

Even a weak side can still croak you if you are not careful; and the weak city does not change the fact that haffaton managed to grow to such an absurd size... Marie has already predicted that it would happen and thus Jillian has reason to think that it is very possible if not likely to happen if Faq doesn't do anything to circumvent it

Jillian's not really trying because she KNOWS that Banhammer's plan is terrible. They asked her to search for a needle in a hay stack when they don't even know if there is a needle in the hay stack to begin with; asking her to search for something incredible difficult to find that may not even exist. It can not work; even if such a capitol site existed it could take thousands of turns to find it if it could be found by just randomly searching around; i mean hell Stanely left Faq's old captial site in ruins and unprotected and yet no one ever stumbled upon it. Its the worst possible plan and its the plan thats wasting time, money and lives. Trying to decapitate haffaton may have its flaws but it is a FAR more realistic plan that has a chance of working; and hell one thing we know of from the future is that Faq outlasted the existence of Haffaton AND took their caster; which makes it sound like something similar to the decapitation plan was what worked out in the end.

Granted though, i think the plan Jillian should have really played more was her evacuation plan where they create a big armada and decapitate some other side that's easy to knock over and not too far away... That was probably the most realistic plan; followed by trying to find a way to defeat haffaton first... Banhammer's plan comes in dead last because its not even a viable plan.

So? Haffaton had them pushed into a corner and had them weak... if Haffaton was really the good side it claims to be it could have ended the fighting right there and then; there was no need to keep going until the side was extinguished. They could have called for a non-aggression pact at any time and they did not; they could have kept pursuing the peace plan but they did not; in the end, just extermination

Irrelevant because Haffaton did not know this about Tommy. Haffaton had no knowledge of Tommy's scheming; Goodmitten kept such details to themselves and thus haffaton knew only what they told them; namely that they needed to deal with an immediate crisis back home and that they would consider haffaton's offer. It was under THAT pretext, the pretext that told haffaton that peace was still on the table, that Haffaton chose to croak Tommy. Hell when you consider that Olive had to put on the poison lipstick before she met with them, you can tell that they were planning to betray them before they even got their answer... In fact Olive's song even hints that Haffaton had chosen to screw the peace talks and take out goodmitten even though Tommy had done nothing more than ask for one more turn to get guidance from their overlord. Its true Tommy was scheming, but haffaton did not know this; they just simply lost their patience and decided to croak tommy at the end of the peace talk.

No, Haffaton are using a type of magic a low level Warlord and a few elves happen to dislike. Unlike their superiors, who chose to place Wanda's Uncroaked in their Banner. Given that Wanda is responsible for most of their conquests, it's not hard to understand why.

Jillian's belief that Haffaton is a paper tiger requires the Prediction to be nonsense. Their Size is the source of her belief in the weakness. She has no non-evil reason to attack the Haffaton that exists in her mind's eye.

... There are Capital Cities out there to be found, Faq's neighbours can hardly be blamed for not expecting to find one on their doorstep. And if Jillian was actually bothering to look she'd be able to bring in some money. As is, she is, as she always does, placing her selfish desires over the welfare of her followers.

Oh true, the evacuation plan was a good idea, on paper at least. In practice, marching an entire Side's worth of Units through unfriendly territory would be far more easier said then done.

For a start, Wanda was marching on a Haffaton City at the time of the Destruction of Goodminton. For a stop, the identity of the Side responsible for Goodminton's annihilation is unknown, so yeah.

It's possible Haffaton failed to realise that a Warlord who came to take a City was still planning to storm it. Such an intelligence failure wouldn't change the facts though and nor does Haffaton putting their plan into action first. When no holds are barred, no holds are barred, end of.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:29 am

Whispri wrote:No, Haffaton are using a type of magic a low level Warlord and a few elves happen to dislike. Unlike their superiors, who chose to place Wanda's Uncroaked in their Banner. Given that Wanda is responsible for most of their conquests, it's not hard to understand why.


You forgot to include their Chief Florist. Olive finds Wanda's work to be disgusting

Jillian's belief that Haffaton is a paper tiger requires the Prediction to be nonsense. Their Size is the source of her belief in the weakness. She has no non-evil reason to attack the Haffaton that exists in her mind's eye.


No it does not, it only requires that the prediction not be 100% absolute. In other forms of fiction, predictions are not seen as absolutes but as posssibilities; as in "this is your future if you do not change from your current course"; WE understand predictamancy to be absolute but the people of erfworld may not. All it requires for Jillian to believe that Marie's predictions will only come true if they do nothing to intervene. This means the threat of Haffaton IS real, despite their paper tiger like status, but only if Faq does nothing to stop it... even the weakest of enemies can strike you down if you show them your back

... There are Capital Cities out there to be found, Faq's neighbours can hardly be blamed for not expecting to find one on their doorstep. And if Jillian was actually bothering to look she'd be able to bring in some money. As is, she is, as she always does, placing her selfish desires over the welfare of her followers.


There is no such evidence that such a city exists, and if one did it would be almost impossible to find; there are countless hexes in erfworld and it would take an EXTREMELY long time to search them all and just missing ONE could delay the mission by thousands of turns. She has been told to look for a needle when the whole world made out of hay. And no she would not have a chance to make more money if she was seriously searching for this fabled capitol because her mission, as definded by king banhammer, tells her to end her mercenary work so that she can search for what can not be found. The ONLY reason she is finding any chances to make any cash is because of wear she has deviated from her father's FUTILE escape plan.

Oh true, the evacuation plan was a good idea, on paper at least. In practice, marching an entire Side's worth of Units through unfriendly territory would be far more easier said then done.


Sounds FAR better than what banhammer came up with. Faq avoided detection for a very long time and the same defense can be used to sneak an entire army through enemy territory. furthermore they were aiming for sides that were weak pushovers. Its not a perfect plan, there is no such a thing, but its a realistic plan with a chance of success. Faq has no chance of surviving if it follows banhammer's plan, but jillian's escape plan would atleast gave them a shot at survival. ANY chance is better than NO chance

For a start, Wanda was marching on a Haffaton City at the time of the Destruction of Goodminton. For a stop, the identity of the Side responsible for Goodminton's annihilation is unknown, so yeah.


It was haffaton's turn, if it was not haffaton itself then it was its allies. In either case Haffaton proved that they could end goodminton VERY easily and were infinitely superior. Goodminton only one a few rounds because of a surprise factor and because Haffaton had not gotten serious; The moment they did, goodminton started to loose EVERYTHING it won far faster than when they got it; And THAT was because of haffaton's own forces not anyone's elses. Goodminton was nothing more than an insect that haffaton thought to swat anyway.

It's possible Haffaton failed to realise that a Warlord who came to take a City was still planning to storm it. Such an intelligence failure wouldn't change the facts though and nor does Haffaton putting their plan into action first. When no holds are barred, no holds are barred, end of.

Doesn't matter; if Haffaton truly believed in peace they would not back stab someone while negotiations were still going on. Their preemptive strike, especially when they are the vastly superior force just shows their true nature. They seek to bring peace through war by destroying all other sides until only they remain; they just prefer alternative methods of achieving victory because it allows them to falsely pretend that they are better than everyone else.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Nnelg » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:03 am

MonteCristo wrote:
Whispri wrote:No, Haffaton are using a type of magic a low level Warlord and a few elves happen to dislike. Unlike their superiors, who chose to place Wanda's Uncroaked in their Banner. Given that Wanda is responsible for most of their conquests, it's not hard to understand why.


You forgot to include their Chief Florist. Olive finds Wanda's work to be disgusting

It could be that whoever chose the livery was pulling a prank or something. ;)


MonteCristo wrote:
Whispri wrote:Oh true, the evacuation plan was a good idea, on paper at least. In practice, marching an entire Side's worth of Units through unfriendly territory would be far more easier said then done.

Sounds FAR better than what banhammer came up with. Faq avoided detection for a very long time and the same defense can be used to sneak an entire army through enemy territory. furthermore they were aiming for sides that were weak pushovers. Its not a perfect plan, there is no such a thing, but its a realistic plan with a chance of success. Faq has no chance of surviving if it follows banhammer's plan, but jillian's escape plan would atleast gave them a shot at survival. ANY chance is better than NO chance

Unless the Prediction said there was NO chance and Banhammer's orders weren't actually intended to save Faq, but to get Jillian as far away from the Capitol as possible. The "Battlestar" plan would have put all of Faq's eggs in one basket, but if we know ahead of time that basket's going to fall...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Whispri » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:50 pm

MonteCristo wrote:You forgot to include their Chief Florist. Olive finds Wanda's work to be disgusting

No it does not, it only requires that the prediction not be 100% absolute. In other forms of fiction, predictions are not seen as absolutes but as posssibilities; as in "this is your future if you do not change from your current course"; WE understand predictamancy to be absolute but the people of erfworld may not. All it requires for Jillian to believe that Marie's predictions will only come true if they do nothing to intervene. This means the threat of Haffaton IS real, despite their paper tiger like status, but only if Faq does nothing to stop it... even the weakest of enemies can strike you down if you show them your back

There is no such evidence that such a city exists, and if one did it would be almost impossible to find; there are countless hexes in erfworld and it would take an EXTREMELY long time to search them all and just missing ONE could delay the mission by thousands of turns. She has been told to look for a needle when the whole world made out of hay. And no she would not have a chance to make more money if she was seriously searching for this fabled capitol because her mission, as definded by king banhammer, tells her to end her mercenary work so that she can search for what can not be found. The ONLY reason she is finding any chances to make any cash is because of wear she has deviated from her father's FUTILE escape plan.

Sounds FAR better than what banhammer came up with. Faq avoided detection for a very long time and the same defense can be used to sneak an entire army through enemy territory. furthermore they were aiming for sides that were weak pushovers. Its not a perfect plan, there is no such a thing, but its a realistic plan with a chance of success. Faq has no chance of surviving if it follows banhammer's plan, but jillian's escape plan would atleast gave them a shot at survival. ANY chance is better than NO chance

It was haffaton's turn, if it was not haffaton itself then it was its allies. In either case Haffaton proved that they could end goodminton VERY easily and were infinitely superior. Goodminton only one a few rounds because of a surprise factor and because Haffaton had not gotten serious; The moment they did, goodminton started to loose EVERYTHING it won far faster than when they got it; And THAT was because of haffaton's own forces not anyone's elses. Goodminton was nothing more than an insect that haffaton thought to swat anyway.

Doesn't matter; if Haffaton truly believed in peace they would not back stab someone while negotiations were still going on. Their preemptive strike, especially when they are the vastly superior force just shows their true nature. They seek to bring peace through war by destroying all other sides until only they remain; they just prefer alternative methods of achieving victory because it allows them to falsely pretend that they are better than everyone else.

Goodminton era Olive disliked Uncroaked, hundreds of Turns have passed since then, if not thousands. Years have gone by, if not decades. And a great many Haffaton soldiers have lived because Wanda's silent servants marched into the mouth of hell on their behalf.

Jillian hasn't read that fiction. So... Furthermore, Haffaton (a Side that has never threatened Faq in anyway) are so weak in this scenario that they are incapable of securing their Capital. Being that weak yet simultaenously somehow strong enough to overwhelm any Side they wish to conquer is a bit on the strange side of things. 'Unlikely' one might say.

Even Jillian admits that such a City could be found. She doesn't have to search everywhere, merely the isolated, hard to reach areas in which such a Site could be missed. As for earning money, she's taken bounty contracts since she left the Capital. Against Haffaton of all Sides. And that's the problem. The reason she can't earn money during her search, is that she hasn't yet lost sight of her mighty neigbour. If she'd flown directly away from them she could be earning bounty money as she flew straight through a Side's territory. Or indeed, raiding apparantly weak Cities without risking the wrath of a Side fated to destroy her own.

Banhammer's plan does not require placing his heir, popped to ensure the survival of his Side after his certain doom, at ground zero. And flying an entire Side's worth of Units through the territory of multiple Sides? It's just asking for it.

That is supposition on your part. Note, that in the the Book 0 update prior to this one Jillian did not in fact know it was Haffaton she was sharing battlespace with until Hedda delivered her scout report. Nevermind that battlespace only kicks in if Sides are fated to encounter each other. As for Goodminton's strength, they were weak because they had no allies. If their allies had stayed loyal, things would have been different.

The negotiations had failed, Tommy made that very clear. He would never have surrendered Wanda and without that there could be no deal. As for the rest, the alternative to peace through conquest is a brutal, never ending war that grinds lives beyond count into dust.

Nnelg wrote:It could be that whoever chose the livery was pulling a prank or something. ;)

And maybe Wanda's the Overlord of Haffaton.
Last edited by Whispri on Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Salem » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:39 pm

To say that someone was planning something so we did something worse is pretty shoddy excuse.
To say that methods and reasons don't matter towards morality is just not right.
"You killed four people, I offer your surrender, but if you refuse I will have no choice but to kill you."

vs

"I want to sleep with your signifigant other. Had you known that you probably would have not just imbibed so much of that tea. Tsk, to bad."

We have a pretty clear distinction there unless you are arguing that there is no such thing as morality. In which case a different discussion is in order.

Now put us in the situation of Tommy's planning, "Guys we have no chance, they're stronger they're more powerful AND we had a clear shot at having a chance if it wasn't for that hippiemancer what can we do. Maybe find a way to attack that would essentially put us back in the same position as pre hippiemancer.

Flower boop: "There won't be any peace, we want them dead. I have no idea if they're planning anything or will honor the truce. So I'm going to murder him. Not all of them just the awesome one."
Or
Flower boop: "They have a plan to betray the peace that we FORCED on them, and well it won't work anyway, but hey this makes me feel morally okay with murdering one of them in the peace I'm forcing."

Hmm, Flower boop, looks clearly bad either way.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 036

Postby Nnelg » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:10 am

Whispri wrote:
Nnelg wrote:It could be that whoever chose the livery was pulling a prank or something. ;)

And maybe Wanda's the Overlord of Haffaton.

Oh, come on. A lot of curious things that happen with apparently no practical reasoning behind them could be logically explained by a bit of teasing between friends (or even less-than-friends).
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