Book 2 – Text Updates 056

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:24 pm

Update suggests that units can be "broken". That's a term from Squad Leader where a unit that came under fire but did not die could be forced to flee. There were heavy modifiers if nearby units died or broke, and Phoebe has certainly suffered that. It's different off-turn in Erfworld becuase you can't leave the hex, but Phoebe has left the combat at the very least.

It's not conclusive by any means, but it's something we can toss onto the stack to keep an eye out for.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:30 pm

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:
0beron wrote:She stays hidden and thus prevents Jetstone promoting Trem

If Jetstone needs to win to promote Tram this plan is even more of a screw up than I thought.

Well it was implied that Jetstone needed to dust every Archon in the airspace to have enough for making Trem Heir. However, they have now captured one alive, which was worth a lot more. On the flip side, this requires that Charlie deliver the bounty for a captured one without first having it in his custody, which doesn't seem like him. Also, his use of the word "credit" in explaining this whole deal to Trem is suspicious...he may not deliver ANY schmuckers to them this turn.


Actually we know from the situation with Haggar that Charlie very likely has archons in the area. If they are close enough Ace could leave the capitol, meet up with them and deliver the archon to them and get their reward...

you also have to keep in mind that Charlie has a lot invested in this battle; first off, if he doesn't give them an advance after they managed to capture a unit then that means there is a good chance he will NEVER get that unit as the whole side may fall before it can be delivered to him... advancing them the reward might be worth it if it means a higher percent chance of him getting his hands on a decrypted archon. Second of all, Charlie WANTS Gobwinknob to loose. GK and the idea of toolism has become a threat to his business and as such it is within his best interests and worth investing in anything that might hinder GK an take actions that would seperate himself from toolism. Third, Charlie wants to restore his reputation with the royal sides that has been slandered; saving jetstone from the brink of destruction when they were not even paying him would do wonders for his reputation amongst the royals


HalfTangible wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:This update does help explain why archon's in the past seem more effective than they do right now. At the battle of GK, the archons didn't just have their own leadship to work with, they would receive support from charlie getting boosted by his dish of 5; plus once they allied with jetstone they might receive Ansom's chief warlord bonus aswell. During this battle however, the archons are completely on their own and left to their own devices... The only bonuses they have to work with is the bonus of their own leaders which is no more than 3 and wanda's meager side-wide bonus of 1. This is against the bonus that Slately's stack which would benefit from as well as Trem's hex wide chief warlord bonus.


Though one thing i find odd about this update would be that i thought the captured archon was Monica... This either means that Xin made two archons that happen to look alike, there is a bit of inconsistency, or that pheobe hasn't been paying close enough attention to the battle to know that Monica was captured instead of dusted like Rachel.

She said 'Tagged out'. That doesn't neccesarily mean 'dusted'.


No you missed a few details
"This game shouldn’t be played. There was no reason for this! Sorry, this action lacks a sound rationale. Monica and Rachel should be alive still!"
And when refering to her own potential demise
" Well, at least she’d be joining Monica and Rachel, then. She hoped Rachel would forgive her for hiding."

So pheobe clearly thinks that both of them are dust
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:41 pm

Nnelg wrote:Also, seeing as Charlie's being generous already in an attempt to gain an ally, I doubt he'd pull a fast one.

I don't think he's being generous at all, or that he even necessarily wants Jetstone as an ally. I suspect he believes Jetstone is already sunk, and he's just propping them up as a straw-man to damage GK for as long as they can.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby TheTuna » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:35 pm

The fact that Charlie does indeed seem to be taking the losing side against GK really interests me.

From a mercenary standpoint, it makes little sense to anger what would otherwise be your best customer and steadfast ally. This suggests that Charlie, like Janet and Marie, truly believes in Parson's ability to end all conflict in Erfworld, and as such will stop at nothing to halt him before Gobwin Knob grows into an unstoppable juggernaut with the strength of Wanda's Decrypted and Stanley's infinite Dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:38 pm

I imagine Charlie doens't have a lose condition here. Just a win/win less condition. That's normally his angle.

He's probably playing on the side of the coalition because he already fits in with GK's toolism, and since he's always a businessman if the coalition loses he can always play the, just business no hard feelings fellow tools card. He probably knows the chips are already stacked against him with the coalition so getting some points with their side probably helps.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby TheTuna » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:44 pm

Salem wrote:I imagine Charlie doens't have a lose condition here. Just a win/win less condition. That's normally his angle.

He's probably playing on the side of the coalition because he already fits in with GK's toolism, and since he's always a businessman if the coalition loses he can always play the, just business no hard feelings fellow tools card. He probably knows the chips are already stacked against him with the coalition so getting some points with their side probably helps.


If Parson or Wanda was leading Gobwin Knob, I'd agree with you.

Stanley, though? Stanley's not going to want to ally with Charlie, and indeed, after he finds out the degree to which Charlie has been subverting them (presumably behind the Gobwins' disappearance, taking every available measure to eradicate Gobwin Knob at any cost and turn easy-win battles into horrific bloodbaths) he's going to want Charlie wiped off the face of the map.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:50 pm

Am I the only one around here who's dying to get another eyebook update which includes Parson's "researches"? :D

Seriously, I'm such a Wanda fanboy that I can't stand seeing the lovely mistress in such a pinch anymore :(
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby noname_hero » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:55 pm

effataigus wrote:What caught my eye on this update was the last two lines... especially for how much setup there was for them:

Yes, this engagement was a mistake. And this war was a mistake. Maybe all wars were a mistake. Maybe war itself was antithetical.

But without it, how would anybody do business?


To me, the emphasis placed on this lends credence to the theory that Charlie is responsible for orchestrating the failure of peace on Erfworld.


To me, because I'm an optimist, this sounds like maybe all the hours Parson spent talking to various archons might be paying off. The game-like laws of Erfworld still do have their consequences but we see that war itself is not hard-coded into erfworlders and that they can think and change.

Or at least it shows us that even basic troops (as in non-ruler, non-warlord, non-caster, non-leadership units) can consider the idea of an erf-wide peace a reasonable one. Sure, Phoebe has trouble with the idea of mercenary work becoming unncessary but she perceives such a peace on Erf simply as a business problem. She is willing to entertain the idea. She doesn't know how it could be done or how it could be sustained but she is willing to imagine it.

And this means that maybe a lot of Erfworlders can change the way they perceive their world, especially if they find themselves under an enlightened ruler. The chance that Parson WILL break war itself gets more real.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Lamech » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:08 pm

TheTuna wrote:The fact that Charlie does indeed seem to be taking the losing side against GK really interests me.

From a mercenary standpoint, it makes little sense to anger what would otherwise be your best customer and steadfast ally. This suggests that Charlie, like Janet and Marie, truly believes in Parson's ability to end all conflict in Erfworld, and as such will stop at nothing to halt him before Gobwin Knob grows into an unstoppable juggernaut with the strength of Wanda's Decrypted and Stanley's infinite Dwagons.
Well duh. Wanda=no diminishing shmucker point. Worse, GK has already picked up on utilizing non-city resources. Extend the dwagon harvesting, to Marbit harvesting, elf harvesting, witch harvesting... finally the borders that GK needs to defend/attack grow linearly while the area (and hence new unit supply) grows quadratically, so its only a matter of time before the forces that GK produces far outstrips what it uses.

GK's production had far outstripped Charlie's, their army had no upper limit, and the other sides have been unable to do anything except feed GK XP, cash and units. If nothing changed GK would conquer everyone, and things were worsening rapidly. Had Charlie not intervened then and there, the Jetstone and Haggar forces would have been wiped and at least three casters converted to GK. If the Wanda+artifact+Ansom combo was good, Wanda+Ansom+artifact+Ace+dittomancer would have been utterly inane.
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Salem wrote:I imagine Charlie doens't have a lose condition here. Just a win/win less condition. That's normally his angle.

He's probably playing on the side of the coalition because he already fits in with GK's toolism, and since he's always a businessman if the coalition loses he can always play the, just business no hard feelings fellow tools card. He probably knows the chips are already stacked against him with the coalition so getting some points with their side probably helps.

Yeah, he's Charlie. Win, he wins hard. Lose well, that's about half a million down the crap cannon. Well, he got the first life of GK's dwagon fleet, and half the archons. And it appears he has very nearly turn a Jetstone TPK, into escaping with most of its forces intact. Even if it ends up GK wins this, they would have won a lot harder had he not intervened.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Does anyone see decrypted Cubbins coming?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:46 pm

Took me a bit to realize this wasn't a inner peace thing. I was menatally stuck at text updates are inner peace.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby onlyme » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:28 am

Amado wrote:The thing that struck me was how much Phoebe (and, if it's safe to generalize, all Archons) are indoctrinated to think of battles as games. This, to me, hints that Charlie may know that the mechanics of Erfworld are strangely wargame-like.


I think it's just their theme (like old FAQ was japanese medieval, new FAQ is european mediaval, GK is evil and so on). The theme for Charlie is "corporation". The archon's spell casting uses words from manager speak and their reasoning does, too. (compare the "review" and related stuff in this text update for example).

And manager speak does not only like to recycle phases from war, but also from sports. (Teamplayer, anyone?).
So I think it is totally in-theme for a scout archer to consider this as game of "tag".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:21 am

Lamech wrote:GK's production had far outstripped Charlie's, their army had no upper limit, and the other sides have been unable to do anything except feed GK XP, cash and units. If nothing changed GK would conquer everyone, and things were worsening rapidly.
I think this may be part of the reason Rob is showing us Haffaton now. Obviously they were in a similar position to GK now...and they fell. Learning how may show us as readers something that nobody else in Erfworld besides Wanda and Jillian know...and I have a feeling that reason is Wanda, which is why it's certain to reoccur.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Frosted » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:10 am

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:GK's production had far outstripped Charlie's, their army had no upper limit, and the other sides have been unable to do anything except feed GK XP, cash and units. If nothing changed GK would conquer everyone, and things were worsening rapidly.
I think this may be part of the reason Rob is showing us Haffaton now.


A friend and I were discussing this earlier today.

Gobwin Knob is NOT a threat to Charlie. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-12.png) Large sides fall, as we're about to see with Haffaton.

Parson IS a threat to Charlie. In this text update it alludes to fact that Charlie is a Real Thinker like Parson ("And he knew tricks"), and updates like this: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-03.png show us that Parson is capable of educating other units to think like him.

Parson will flood the market with being good at war and Charlie's services will be much diminished.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby technojunkie » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:51 pm

noname_hero wrote:Or at least it shows us that even basic troops (as in non-ruler, non-warlord, non-caster, non-leadership units) can consider the idea of an erf-wide peace a reasonable one.


As an extension to your question... is this frame of mind enabled because of being decrypted?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:54 pm

technojunkie wrote:
noname_hero wrote:Or at least it shows us that even basic troops (as in non-ruler, non-warlord, non-caster, non-leadership units) can consider the idea of an erf-wide peace a reasonable one.
As an extension to your question... is this frame of mind enabled because of being decrypted?
And in response to BOTH your questions...could we really consider Archons to be "basic units"..? even ones which lack the leadership special seem more "cognizant" than Dwagons, a unit of comparable power. Perhaps this is because they are a unit keyed to the 'Tool of Thinkamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:00 pm

Frosted wrote:
0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:GK's production had far outstripped Charlie's, their army had no upper limit, and the other sides have been unable to do anything except feed GK XP, cash and units. If nothing changed GK would conquer everyone, and things were worsening rapidly.
I think this may be part of the reason Rob is showing us Haffaton now.


A friend and I were discussing this earlier today.
Gobwin Knob is NOT a threat to Charlie. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-12.png) Large sides fall, as we're about to see with Haffaton.

Not quite; Thanks to decryption GK does not have to worry about upkeep. Without Upkeep for their armies there is not limit to how far GK could expand...


noname_hero wrote:To me, because I'm an optimist, this sounds like maybe all the hours Parson spent talking to various archons might be paying off. The game-like laws of Erfworld still do have their consequences but we see that war itself is not hard-coded into erfworlders and that they can think and change.

Or at least it shows us that even basic troops (as in non-ruler, non-warlord, non-caster, non-leadership units) can consider the idea of an erf-wide peace a reasonable one. Sure, Phoebe has trouble with the idea of mercenary work becoming unncessary but she perceives such a peace on Erf simply as a business problem. She is willing to entertain the idea. She doesn't know how it could be done or how it could be sustained but she is willing to imagine it.

And this means that maybe a lot of Erfworlders can change the way they perceive their world, especially if they find themselves under an enlightened ruler. The chance that Parson WILL break war itself gets more real.


I think it only reinforces the idea because we all ready knew of sides who questioned war and wanted Peace. The leading example is Faq who was opposed to war and made effort to avoid it, but in the end found they could not completely escape it as they still needed to resort to mercenary work. I suspect that haffaton is another side... with the emphasis on hippymancy it seems like haffaton's aim is to create one giant side to bring peace; they are essentially committed to a war to end all wars. This is why they have not tried to spin off new sides with the capitols they captured, because they believe to end all wars their can only be ONE side. Sure its not peaceful methords as they have to destroy countless poeple to do it, but its still shows they have a belief in world peace. However it seems like Haffaton's version of the plan doesn't work out so well as massive sides may prove too difficult to maintain... and we alos know that Sizamore is a dedicated peacenik, though he is bound by duty to fight if he is ordered too.

Though i guess it is somewhat signficant that even common units can think this way as we saw in the past that common units can at times have limited thoughts (such as not thinking much beyond their duty) and its usually the commanders who do all the thinking
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:05 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Not quite; Thanks to decryption GK does not have to worry about upkeep. Without Upkeep for their armies there is not limit to how far GK could expand...
True they are not limited by UPKEEP, but they could still fall prey to the paper tiger fate of Haffaton. Decrypted are a one-shot unit, once they dust they're gone, and you're guaranteed to lose some in every combat. So as you're forced to fight on more and more fronts, your force could be subject to diminishing returns. Not sure if this will be the case, but it's a possible parallel of the upkeep problem Haffaton had.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:34 pm

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Not quite; Thanks to decryption GK does not have to worry about upkeep. Without Upkeep for their armies there is not limit to how far GK could expand...
True they are not limited by UPKEEP, but they could still fall prey to the paper tiger fate of Haffaton. Decrypted are a one-shot unit, once they dust they're gone, and you're guaranteed to lose some in every combat. So as you're forced to fight on more and more fronts, your force could be subject to diminishing returns. Not sure if this will be the case, but it's a possible parallel of the upkeep problem Haffaton had.


You do realize that units are actually "one-shot" for most sides, right? except those with a croakamancer , and in that case they don't exactly have 2 lives, they have "1.5" since uncroaked are generally weaker than an actual unit.

also, being able to decrypt doesn't mean that their entire force must consist of decrypted. they can still have as many "normal" troops as their income allows + decrypted, made from enemies they kill, and of course, troops they lose.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:37 pm

True, and that's kinda my point. The real problem for Haffaton wasn't their lack of money in of itself, it was that they are too big to defend themselves given their economic resources. Having the Decrypted only goes so far to address that problem, but that doesn't completely eliminate it.
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