Book 2 – Page 84

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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Nnelg » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:11 am

I wonder now what potential loopholes are in that Prediction, and what the Predictamancers aren't telling us...

For instance, if the Prediction only says "Issac will suffer Parson to pass through the Spacerock portal", then the case could be that Issac yields and stands aside for Parson, who then rathers and elects to go listen to what Issac has to say.
Bonus points! I finally managed to include the word "rather" in its archaic usage as a verb (meaning "has second thoughts") in a sentence.


arin wrote:Parson's decision to enter the battlespace himself was emotional, rather than tactical. Which is an important distinction because, although he wants to be there to share in the danger for his troops and be the kind of leader /Earth/ would respect and admire, the fact remains that, tactically speaking, he's not necessary to the fight there. Spacerock's Garrison is almost completely captured anyway (tower down, dungeon and courtyard both more than 50% controlled by enemy troops), so it's incredibly likely that Prince Tremennis is going to order the evacuation anyway - ESPECIALLY since he has no idea that Wanda and Jack are not still in Spacerock, decrypting and veiling all the fallen tower units. They could all literally be in shackles at any moment if they stay. Slately has accomplished his tactical goal here - fundraze enough Archons to promote Trem. Whether or not he's going to depop at the end of the turn, he no longer has any reason to stay - especially with his new attitude, focused more on efficiency than pride.

On the contrary, battles progress too fast and too chaotically to be coordinated entirely via thinkagram; Parson needs to be much closer of the front if he wants to command GK's forces on an operational level there. But I concede the point that it isn't strictly necessary for Parson to be the one in charge of this battle. GK has other warlords in Spacerock, and though none are particularly fit for the job, one of them should be sufficient for a quick mop-up operation. Although, Parson has his own personal morale to worry about too, so... If he hadn't been delayed in the MK, he might have arrived in time to even save the archons.


Kaed wrote:I believe this "thinkspace" is a form of thinkamancy communication above the thinkagram. Charlie uses it himself every time he conducts a business talk, and it is definitely different from a two way thinkagram - those involve talking head images, not a private mental space where one can talk.

And others can join.

Presumably only people Issac trusts can gain access, one of them being Maggie. Or, it could be Charlie in a disguise -Even Issac doesn't know the 'dish true potential...


Swodaems wrote:About damned time someone told Parson that he was being over zealous. Too bad it wasn't expressed as the phrase "You're being a booping moron." At this point, Parson deserves it.

Nah, I think he's fine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby HalfTangible » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:27 am

effataigus wrote:Wow, that's gutsy... pulling someone into thinkspace when he's surrounded by angry carnymancers. Better hope some of those predictamancers are screening for him.

Lloyd really does look depressed... guessing next panel he'll tell the assembly that Slately is about to depop... wasn't convinced before, but seems likely now that he isn't even sharing in the minor victory of getting Tram back.

I'd like to think that Parson could pretty quickly convince Isaac to go with him into the portal, but Maggie joining the conversation suggests to me we're going to have another couple of full panels of people standing around talking. Poor, Xin :D

My biggest question is why Maggie insisted on keeping Parson in the dark. I'll have to go back and reread that bonus-content page in the printed book, but, IIRC, it didn't make any sense then either. Isaac's histrionics would be unnecessary if Maggie would just spill the beans... and you would think that Parson's speech at the end of Book 1 about not withholding intel would have set her straight.

's the problem with thinkamancers I guess... always think they know better.

It's implied that Charlie can hear anything going on in Erfworld or hack any thinkamancy object that isn't in that grand temple-thing mentioned in the text updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:41 am

From the worried looks everyone has while the spell is being cast and the relief on their faces when it's done, it looks like there was a chance of Trem dying during the spell. Or perhaps it failing and he didn't have enough juice left for another try.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Ytaker » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:59 am

Selexor wrote:So... I take it that Parson's failure is that he's ignoring the whole "moral action" and "character development" and "caring for his troops" thing that has been the whole point of his character ever since he was brought to Erfworld? His decision was that if he was sending people he cared about to fight in a war, he should be involved in it. So far his advice has turned GK's units from certain defeat into likely victory, before saying that he was coming to personally oversee the battle, which bestows his bonus as Chief Warlord in the hex where it's needed and allows him to communicate without using whatever's left of Maggie's severely depleted Juice. That sounds like a very sound tactical decision to me.


Ok. So he has morally developed to care about the troops thanks to the brutality of the first book. His action to fulfil that, make his troups (including the adorable archons) wait and die while he gets there isn't that caring. It's more self centred. If he was caring he would end the war, give the enemy swift deaths, and move onto to making a more peaceful side.

But no, let's assume what he is doing is in the best interest of his troops for the sake of argument. So he goes out bravely, armored with the finest of magics and invades the magic kingdom. He rushes through a tunnel to save his troops. Then... he stops to chat with a carnymancer because that carnymancer is offering something to him personally? He stops again to chat up his dirtmancer, learn what's going on, get him to check over his scroll. When he gets up, predictably, there's a large force of enemies delaying him and he may die.

How could that be read as caring about the troops, stopping to chat with people about something that will save him from the fight?

If he wants the scroll that much he could have even taken it quickly. Give it to Sizemore, deal with it later. He had time to share witty remarks and chat.

Another Chief Warlord would have made sense, but Parson not only didn't want to be Chief, he specifically said that someone already at the battle should be.
Destroying the tower was a smart move, but not while he was in the Magic Kingdom, and he didn't order the tower to be destroyed at the wrong point in the battle.
Not stopping to talk to Jojo would have been smart, but Jojo was actually offering to help him at a time when he needs allies and he had no idea time was such a crucial factor. Stopping for 60 seconds to talk wasn't that stupid. And even if he did, Marie and Janis and Sizemore would have stopped him to chat anyway.


He made the tunnel precisely because time is such a crucial factor, he was aware that the magic kingdom would send people to see what was happening. The longer he waits the more people can find out.

Why does he need allies in the magic kingdom? The place would be pretty shut off to him after pulling this stunt.

He didn't have to stop to natter to Marie and Janis and Sizemore. This isn't an rpg where you have to chat if someone comes up to you.

He's acting with limited information, knowing that soon he can't communicate with his troops, terrified that they're all going to die after he took a big personal vow to not let that happen again, and pausing to at least consider a potential offer for help before being ambushed by tGMtTA. He had the choice to stay in Gobwin Knob and lose communication once Maggie's juice ran out while his troops died, or get to Spacerock the only way he could to direct the battle personally. He chose the only possible option that makes him other than useless, and then was ambushed in a way he couldn't possibly have predicted with the lack of information he'd been given.


We have strong hints from the comic that the central tower should have come down fast. He could have saved them all by smashing it down. He chose not to. They had to wait for him to get there. He wasn't terrified they would all die, he was happy to risk them all dying while he ran there to save the day. He was happy to spend time chatting to people while his troops were dying.

He made a tunnel to avoid opposition and then spent several minutes chatting to people slowly inside the tunnel. How could he have not predicted he would be ambushed?

I mean, what should he have done - remembering what Parson knew at the time, and the options available to him - that would have been better? Order the tower destroyed when that's clearly failed to beat Slately, and stood there going "Oops" while Maggie's juice ran dry and his Units were left stranded? He's reacted as best he can to a shift in circumstances entirely beyond his control, and is trying to be proactive despite massive obstacles. I'd say he's doing as well as anyone could and better than most.


http://www.erfworld.com/page/56/

Book 2 – Text Updates 053

Another distant boom rumbled from the direction of the tower, and Rachel stared angrily at its cracking facade. "Could that thing take any longer to fall?"

"I know, right?"

The archons suggest the tower should have fallen around then. I trust in their intelligence, Charlie trained them well, they can probably do the math. It would have fallen while the king was trying to upgrade his equipment, before Ossomer turned. Their side would have won, most of their units would be intact, and they could move onto the next challenge. Whatever it was, the archons could make a massive fleet of tamed dwagons to aid in killing it. He's probably gambling everything so he can capture some casters or something, not trying to save his troops.

I don't see much need for new orders. He should have gotten Slyvia (sp?) made warchief so she would be tougher, but it should have been pretty thinkamancy light regardless. Micromanagement would be unhelpful.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby multilis » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 am

Parson needs XP to level himself as his leadership bonus applies to all his sides units.

Parson wants to be a player rather than a pawn, his reason for throwing away sword at end of book 1. It is possible he wants to split off and start his own side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:00 pm

Silverhorn wrote:4) Parson is not welcome in the MK and none of the casters there are reaching out to him. They are leaving him in the dark.
And he isn't trying to reach out to them either. He is electing to stay in the dark.

We've never been given the full story on Parson's exile from the Magic Kingdom. All we really been told is that a group of casters has said that they don't want Parson in the magic kingdom. We haven't been given enough information to know just how serious that is. We haven't really seen more than a few glares and harsh words directed at Parson. None of the casters in the Magic Kingdom has fired a shot. (I'm used to Stupidworld politics, so I am automatically suspicious of people claiming to talk for groups. Good fictional politics needs a lot more names, numbers and details to establish that there is actually a large group of people out there willing to kill you if members of the group aren't shown actively trying to do so. Even the implied death threats Stanley's Pov text told us of are little evidence of seriousness. Depending on the culture, a death threat is often dismissable as hyperbole.) We have no idea how things would have really turned out if Parson had tried forcing the issue of his ability to go to the magic kingdom. (Annoucing that he was coming and keeping his weapon sheathed would be a good idea. Alot of the reactions we see on the random casters of the magic kingdom who reacted to Parson's presence would justified regardless of what they thought of having a warlord in the Magic Kingdom or of his goals. Erfworlders are the size of children. If a full grown man had unexpectedly burst into my elementry school classroom while armed, armored, and adrenaline-high, I could be forgiven for reacting as if I felt he meant harm to me.)

This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again. All the intelligence in the world won't help you if you're too personally fucked up to use it. He has had access to a thinkamancer and a caster who makes constant trips to the MK since book 1. He was told that a powerful caster named Janis protected him during his first visit three days after TBFGK. It has been 2 months since then. He could have been using the resources at his disposal to discuss matters with people in the MK for quite a while. These fact make Parson's isolated status feel self imposed, not something he has no choice about. To put it in his own words, how the magic kingdom views him is something Parson just doesn't find "interesting enough to change." (For those who insist that Parson could have had attempts to approach casters in the MK that failed that we don't know about, I'm just going to say that Sizemore not listing them in his inner litany of reasons for why he is now unpopular is proof enough to me that such attempts either didn't happen or not enough effort was applied to them.)

And while everyone's going around repeating the 'this is an emotional decision' mantra, I would like to state the thing that I feel in most lacking from book 2: a POV text update from Parson. The Book 2 POVs have been useful in that they have allowed me to gain a connection to the character whose view is described. The lack of anything like that for Parson in book 2 has made him one of the least sympathetic members of the cast as he doesn't feel like he is getting enough screen time. His in-comic dialogue and expressions simply aren't enough to overcome the advantage the other characters have. (While the author and artist may spend more time on the comic pages, it takes me longer to read a text update, so they mean more to me.) Parson really needs a good Pov update to explain himself in, preferably before he makes whatever decision he has to make. Another retrospective, hypocritical, self-justifying speech from him at the end of the book would annoying. (If the next few comic pages are going to be Issac, Maggie, and Parson doing an in-depth analysis of Parson's psyche, then that simply isn't going to work to help me connect to Parson. The POV updates work to connect characters to me because of the way they create a neutral medium for the characters to scrawl their thoughts on. The fact Parson would be trying to manipulate Issac out of his way or into giving information taints things. A lot of people were more sympathetic to Wanda after Book 0, Part 1, but I saw this wangst ridden speech to her father as point of no return for the character. Her words to her father out weighed what was going on in her head, making her dialogue feel forced, faked, and knee jerk manipulative. (Issac leaving thinkspace and Parson and Maggie having a talk would work as a medium. The psych doctor/patient relationship is already there to use. Unfortunately, both these characters would know that they don't have time for this. (And Issac and Parson's dialogue on this page does indicate that time does pass while in thinkspace.)))
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:34 pm

Swodaems wrote:We've never been given the full story on Parson's exile from the Magic Kingdom.


Yeah, we have. There are about 5 references to it. They are afraid of a Warlord in MK that can force them to join a Side. I've posted all of the references in the past, and I'm not going through that pain Yet Again to satisfy you. Feel free to re-read the comic to find them all.

This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again.


I'm not convinced you're qualified to make that determination.

And while everyone's going around repeating the 'this is an emotional decision' mantra,


Strawman. Hardly everyone. Not even most.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Swodaems wrote:We've never been given the full story on Parson's exile from the Magic Kingdom.


Yeah, we have. There are about 5 references to it. They are afraid of a Warlord in MK that can force them to join a Side. I've posted all of the references in the past, and I'm not going through that pain Yet Again to satisfy you. Feel free to re-read the comic to find them all.
I am going to have to ask that you further define the phrase 'join a side'. Do you some mean they're afraid he'll actually use some kind of force (turnamancy or croakamancy maybe?) to literally make them join a side? Or do you mean that his mere public existance in the magic kingdom will force them to swing one way other the other on a political issue? If I'm to argue with you, I need to know what I'm arguing about. (Either way, I don't think there is an explict statement of fact about why a guard was placed on the GK portal or someone felt the need to communicate death threats. At least, not online. I wouldn't know about anything in the extra pages in the books. (I'm talking merely about the issue of his presence in the magic kingdom. We have seen a lot of talking on how his plan to enter SpaceRock will be taken, but on the issue of his trying to peacefully enter in the MK, I don't believe there is much out there besides oblique references to a guard on the GK portal and the death threats. And I don't put much stock in those since no one has actually yet tried to shoot at Parson.))

Kreistor wrote:
This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again.


I'm not convinced you're qualified to make that determination.
[humor]I'm not convinced you're qualified to make the determination you made either.[/humor] We both spouting opinions here. We can either do it by stating how we feel about the characters or how we feel about each other. (I admit the lack of books does mean that I have access to slightly less information, but I feel fine sharing my impressions based off what I can get online.)

Kreistor wrote:
And while everyone's going around repeating the 'this is an emotional decision' mantra,


Strawman. Hardly everyone. Not even most.
The word everyone was meant as a hyperbole. I apologize if you thought it was meant to be taken as a serious statement of fact. I knew that a significant chunk of humanity is simply incapable of understanding it or sarcasm when I made the post, but I did it anyway. I'm sorry. I would still like your opinion on the rest of the paragraph however. Do you think Parson has lost status as a sympathetic character in this comic due to his lack of a point of view text in book 2?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Kyrt » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:43 pm

Swodaems wrote:We've never been given the full story on Parson's exile from the Magic Kingdom. All we really been told is that a group of casters has said that they don't want Parson in the magic kingdom. We haven't been given enough information to know just how serious that is.


They were prepared to croak him last tiem he was there. Pretty serious.

We have no idea how things would have really turned out if Parson had tried forcing the issue of his ability to go to the magic kingdom.


He just did. There are casters arriving who aren't exactly friendly.

This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again.


Incompetence?

He could have been using the resources at his disposal to discuss matters with people in the MK for quite a while.


You assume he hasn't. "They don't even recognise my right to enter the MK" springs to mind. Not ot mention the embargo the MK placed on GK. Or the displeasure with which Sizemore is viewed simply because of his association. The MK is fond of neither Parson nor GK.

And while everyone's going around repeating the 'this is an emotional decision' mantra


Thats because thats what it is. He wants to be with the troops. He tells us this. It isn't necessary, it isn't smart but leaving them to die isn't the type of person he wants to be.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Selexor » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Ytaker wrote:Ok. So he has morally developed to care about the troops thanks to the brutality of the first book. His action to fulfil that, make his troups (including the adorable archons) wait and die while he gets there isn't that caring. It's more self centred. If he was caring he would end the war, give the enemy swift deaths, and move onto to making a more peaceful side.

This would be the part where he advised Wanda to fly in and destroy the Tower as quickly as possible. And when Wanda failed to take his advice and was pinned down by Kingworld, he advised the Gobwin Knob troops on how to act while he came up with a plan. And when he came up with a plan, he expressly told them to do the only possible thing that could have saved them despite horrible risk, while he came to join the battle. You say that he should have ended the battle quickly? I say that he was trying to do exactly that. But when he became Chief Warlord, he looked at where he'd be the most possible use - Gobwin Knob or Spacerock. The decision wasn't entirely selfless, I agree, but the fact is that he's of more use in Spacerock than Gobwin Knob. The choice to go wasn't brilliant, but neither was staying put. He's absolutely right - his side needs him.

Ytaker wrote:But no, let's assume what he is doing is in the best interest of his troops for the sake of argument. So he goes out bravely, armored with the finest of magics and invades the magic kingdom. He rushes through a tunnel to save his troops. Then... he stops to chat with a carnymancer because that carnymancer is offering something to him personally? He stops again to chat up his dirtmancer, learn what's going on, get him to check over his scroll. When he gets up, predictably, there's a large force of enemies delaying him and he may die.

How could that be read as caring about the troops, stopping to chat with people about something that will save him from the fight?

If he wants the scroll that much he could have even taken it quickly. Give it to Sizemore, deal with it later. He had time to share witty remarks and chat.

He performed his underground dash as fast as he could, and Jojo overtook him in the tunnel. A Caster of unknown alliance, power level and ability, in a place where Parson had good reason to fear attack from enemy Casters. When Parson found that he couldn't outrun Jojo he quite reasonably turned to defend himself, at which point Jojo assured Parson that he was not an enemy, but was in fact trying to help him. Given the circumstances and how grim things look for Parson - remembering that he does not know what we know by this point - can you blame him for at least listening to what Jojo had to say on the faint chance the offer was genuine? And when Jojo informed him that the spell would do something Parson did desperately want... yes, listening was a little selfish, but again, how can you blame him for at least listening to Jojo?
When Parson did get hold of the scroll, the very first thing he did right away was show it to Sizemore, who had no idea what it would do. When that didn't work, he showed it to Isaac, who also had no idea. He's not making rash decisions here, he's trying to do the right thing. And most importantly, he turned down Jojo's offer because he has a job to do.

Also, keep in mind that at this point, Parson doesn't know what's happening at Spacerock. He knows that the Dwagon Drop worked and that Jack and Wanda are alive, and they're developing a growing force of Decrypted troops. But this is all he knows. Not only does he not know the tower is about to come down, he doesn't even know if his side holds the Portal Room yet, and if he'll pop out of the Magic Kingdom into a room full of angry Jetstone infantry.
He does not know that time is as short as it is, and actually has a plausible reason to drag his feet, just a little. So far as he's aware, taking five minutes to get to Jetstone instead of three minutes will have no adverse effect, and if those two minutes gain him an ally, it's a sound decision.

Ytaker wrote:He made the tunnel precisely because time is such a crucial factor, he was aware that the magic kingdom would send people to see what was happening. The longer he waits the more people can find out.

No, he made the tunnel because if he walked through the Magic Kingdom in front of everyone he'd be blasted into charred Hamster Chunks and used to fertilise the Hippiemancer's flowers. The tunnel means that he can't be directly attacked from the side, and that there's even a chance some casters won't even notice him. Yes, it failed, but that's not because of anything Parson did - he had no way of knowing Jojo or tGMtTA would ambush him at either end of the tunnel. If not for those who were specifically waiting for him, the tunnel would have actually worked.

Ytaker wrote:Why does he need allies in the magic kingdom? The place would be pretty shut off to him after pulling this stunt.

He didn't have to stop to natter to Marie and Janis and Sizemore. This isn't an rpg where you have to chat if someone comes up to you.

He needs allies in the Magic Kingdom because if he doesn't, he'll have nothing but enemies in the Magic Kingdom. Explain to me how having everyone in the island full of magic-wielders wanting you croaked is a good thing. Then explain how, in war, having another ally, no matter who they are, is a bad thing. He needs allies because he needs allies, period. Allies who are powerful casters? Even better?
And yes, let's be straightforward, here. He does need to stop and natter to Marie and Janis and Sizemore. They burst in to save him from Jojo's ambush, and after fending him off, outright told Parson that he needed to get off his butt and move, which is exactly what you seem to be saying Parson should do. They're on your side here, man! They told him to ignore the distractions, go to Spacerock, and get the job done!

Ytaker wrote:We have strong hints from the comic that the central tower should have come down fast. He could have saved them all by smashing it down. He chose not to. They had to wait for him to get there. He wasn't terrified they would all die, he was happy to risk them all dying while he ran there to save the day. He was happy to spend time chatting to people while his troops were dying.

No, he was the first one to say that they should destroy the tower, and Wanda ignored his advice. Yes, the tower should have come down faster, but what on Erf does that have to do with anything, and how could it possibly be related to a failure on Parson's behalf? By Luckamancy or by Fate, it stood stubborn until the right moment to fall, which was also the worst moment for Parson. And considering he's being ambushed and manipulated, I'd say that he's anything but "happy to spend time chatting to people while his troops were dying". Judging by what he's saying to Isaac, he seems pretty pissed off about it.

Ytaker wrote:He made a tunnel to avoid opposition and then spent several minutes chatting to people slowly inside the tunnel. How could he have not predicted he would be ambushed?

Well, because the tunnel was made to prevent an Ambush, and Sizemore didn't notice Jojo. And Maggie told him to wait until she thought it was safe, and she neglected to tell him that this meant summoning tGMtTA to the scene. He couldn't have predicted the ambush because the people who were his eyes and ears in the Magic Kingdom very specifically told him that if he went now, he wouldn't be ambushed, and they were wrong because they'd been withholding information. Again: Not Parson's fault, not Parson's plan.

Ytaker wrote:The archons suggest the tower should have fallen around then. I trust in their intelligence, Charlie trained them well, they can probably do the math. It would have fallen while the king was trying to upgrade his equipment, before Ossomer turned. Their side would have won, most of their units would be intact, and they could move onto the next challenge. Whatever it was, the archons could make a massive fleet of tamed dwagons to aid in killing it. He's probably gambling everything so he can capture some casters or something, not trying to save his troops.

I don't see much need for new orders. He should have gotten Slyvia (sp?) made warchief so she would be tougher, but it should have been pretty thinkamancy light regardless. Micromanagement would be unhelpful.

The Archons have been shown to become nervous wrecks without Charlie there to advise them, following Charlie's Rules to the letter and being very uncertain a lot of the time. Without Charlie, they take advice from Mistress Wanda instead. And again, I fail to see what the tower taking a while to fall has anything to do with... well, anything! The Archons can't land, they can't engage the tower themselves, they can do nothing but hover there and look pretty. There is literally no way in which they can influence this fight at all unless it goes into the Airspace, which Parson had no reason to suspect it would yet.

And as far as making another Gobwin Knob unit like Sylvia into Chief Warlord? He told the Tool to do exactly that. He very specifically said that he did not want to be made Chief. The only reason he got the job was because his Thinkamancer literally mind-controlled Stanley into promoting Parson regardless of this.

Everything you're saying that makes Parson a bad Warlord is someone else ignoring his advice, keeping secrets from him, or actively trying to attack him. Yet despite this, Parson's advice saved Gobwin Knob's troops from certain defeat in the Airspace and have pushed matters in the Magic Kingdom to where he's finally getting a look at the full picture. None of the things that have gone wrong up to this point have been his fault in any way, but he's still standing and still trying to help his side as best he can. Sounds like what a good leader should be doing to me.
Last edited by Selexor on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:36 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Swodaems wrote:We've never been given the full story on Parson's exile from the Magic Kingdom. All we really been told is that a group of casters has said that they don't want Parson in the magic kingdom. We haven't been given enough information to know just how serious that is.


They were prepared to croak him last tiem he was there. Pretty serious.
And they choose not to immediately fire. Instead they allowed Janis to arrange his safe incapacitation. As far as I'm concerned, the lack of shots fired means they weren't serious about croaking him. The drawn wands mean they were willing to protect themselves, but that is all.

Kyrt wrote:
We have no idea how things would have really turned out if Parson had tried forcing the issue of his ability to go to the magic kingdom.


He just did. There are casters arriving who aren't exactly friendly.
If they're still not shooting at him, I don't care how unfriendly they act. Depending on the local courts, I can tell you to your face that I am willing to kill you, but so long as I don't actually try, it's just harmless trash talk. (Jojo's manuver with the scroll does not count as a serious attempt on Parson's life because, as Issac revealed just one page ago, that scroll could actually do what Jojo said.)

Kyrt wrote:
This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again.


Incompetence?
Do you remember how he was introduced? He had a dead-end job he hated at Kinko's, a car that barely ran, a webcomic nobody read and didn't feel like changing any of that. Those indicate incompetence to me. I don't think his transition to another world changed who he was before.

Kyrt wrote:
He could have been using the resources at his disposal to discuss matters with people in the MK for quite a while.


You assume he hasn't. "They don't even recognise my right to enter the MK" springs to mind. Not ot mention the embargo the MK placed on GK. Or the displeasure with which Sizemore is viewed simply because of his association. The MK is fond of neither Parson nor GK.
Considering that he has to actually be introduced to Janis, he can not have been trying that hard. He was told roughly 60 turns ago that she was the one who protected him during his first visit to the Magic Kingdom. The introduction therefore means that any attempts he made to reenter the MK peacefully could not have included a thinkagram to the person that he knew could keep him safe while he is there. The lack of that element means any attempt was piss-poor at best.

Kyrt wrote:
And while everyone's going around repeating the 'this is an emotional decision' mantra


Thats because thats what it is. He wants to be with the troops. He tells us this. It isn't necessary, it isn't smart but leaving them to die isn't the type of person he wants to be.
Please include whole sentences in your quotes. I wasn't arguing that the decision wasn't emotional. I was just using that phrase as a segue into another related issue.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Nueamin » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:29 pm

Swodaems wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
This is just another instance of Parson's chronic incompetence popping up again.


Incompetence?
Do you remember how he was introduced? He had a dead-end job he hated at Kinko's, a car that barely ran, a webcomic nobody read and didn't feel like changing any of that. Those indicate incompetence to me. I don't think his transition to another world changed who he was before.


Actually it has been pointed out specifically as ambivalence not incompetence. Parson has been shown to be quite competent when he was motivated throughout book 1. Parson himself points out that he just isn't interested in any of these things. Success in life is usually judged by these things in society but they hold little to no value for Parson and so he accepts mediocrity in them putting as little effort as possible so that he might spend as much time and energy in his one great interest, gaming....

The point is that not trying does not equal incompetence. Incompetence is the inablity to perform. If he continually jammed the copier at Kinko's because of his inability to follow the printed instructions that would be incompetent, but if he is slacking off and doing the minimum (which is implied) then he is all sorts of things(slacker,underachiever, etc..) but incompetent isn't one of them. Parson's abilities are greater than what he has achieved in life would indicate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:20 am

Alright a lot to say and so little time to say it forgive me not quoting.

Parson neeeeeeeds to be there. At least I think so tactically. Even if he doesn't’t know it. The decrypted can turn, Wanda is reliant on Parson and the decrypted do not understand why. It impacts loyalty that is not absolute. If parson gains levels, shows he’s willing to die for them, thinks of them as more than objects. You know be Patton or some nonsense. This may make a huge difference, especially when they decrypt highly emotional Erfs like Cubins, bless his soul. I mean, he died doing something irrational, that strayed away from his side's beliefs and strategy. Sure he was 100% Pure awesome not including his great big adorable heart. Wanda needs to change, parson has already started changing her in small ways.

Also, perfect warlord might not mean the greatest warlord ever. It might mean the perfect warlord for Erworld. I mean take George Washington, by many accounts not perfect, but his caring and compassion won him the hearts of his men and got them through some tough times, really tough ones. He was perfect for his situation. Also an ability to listen to those more competent.

Also, for some reason all this has made me think of Brave Fencer Musashiden for the PS2. Where they use a spell to summon the perfect hero and get a kid. And the old man mentions the spell didn't summon the perfect hero but the person with the capability to become it. I mean we keep tossing around perfect for parson, but he has a 2 leadership bonus. He doesn't have infinite in all stats and omnipotence. So "Perfect" I don't think means without failing.

But who knows maybe getting out there in the thick of things showing compassion and leading like an Alexander the great will raise his leadership bonus. Maybe it will increase moral. Maybe it will somehow make him better. Other than exp. Leading from the front does have a lot of intangible benefits and I don't know if Erfworld takes them into account but quite a few warlords do lead in battle, rather than just being present in the hex.

I don't get why anyone would say he's making a huuuuge moral breach by talking to Jojo for a ?? Amount of time. He's human. Over the 89 turns in GK he probably gave up on his severe hope of going home. Then wham, I can get you home. If that doesn't give someone pause they have no heart. Or actually had no desire to go home.




P.S. In the matter of death threats I imagine we'd go with Mr. Baldur's culture would be my bet. And I'm pretty sure death threat is pseudo serious, more than part of trash talking but not guaranteed actual malice. Just enough to cause fear or have credibility.
"Too cute to (stay) croak(ed)!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Jorgath » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:33 am

At this point I think Parson should convince Charlie to go on a trip with him to Candy Mountain and steal his kidneys. Sorry, I mean Arkendish.
"It matters not how strait the gait,
how charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."
--William Ernest Henley, Invictus

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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby HalfTangible » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:47 am

Why does everyone keep talking about further decryption now that Wanda is in the magic kingdom? Parson's whole loophole was that since he's not a caster, convention doesn't keep him from going through one portal to another.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Biostar » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:15 am

I doubt all the scenes and dialogue in the comic was meant to mean anything but that the MK would croak Parson if he ever ventured there again, let alone just linger by his portal. The casters was prepared to blast Parson when he did it the first time, probably pausing for the absurdity of the event. What threat was he to them personally, a bunch of casters with ranged attacks. It was the threat to the MK's neutrality that they were concerned with. The only reason why the situation didn't escalate was because of Janis' interruption, then changing the focus over to the linked GK casters. Parson woke up to casters glaring down at him, like they were watching him for any funny business. They let him off with a warning.

The tunnel was used to get him to the portal without attracting attention to his presence. If he was just going to get the same treatment like Sizemore has been gettting, he could have just slyly gotten close to Spacerock's portal then slip in. Other casters get close to portals thats not theirs all the time, Sizemore just did it without getting attacked. Also Maggie wouldn't feel the need to get the GMTTA or think it wasn't safe for him until they arrived if there was no threat to his well-being. The only reason theres no shooting going on right now is because the one out of three groups there that would be fine with croaking him are outnumbered by the other two that would protect him. Once more casters converge though that won't be an issue.

I just feel theres been alot of effort to making the MK look hostile to Parson, just for it to be minimized to only idle threats. If he could enter safely, he would have done so. Parson is a curious person, and would invite the chance of leaving the capital (and Stanley) for awhile.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby clik » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:38 am

Ytaker wrote:If he wants the scroll that much he could have even taken it quickly. Give it to Sizemore, deal with it later.


Disregarding your other notions, this tidbit did make me ponder about giving the scroll to Sizemore. For reals.

Perhaps it will not be Parson who reads Jojo's scroll, but Sizemore. Sizemore seems as unhappy in Erfworld much as Parson did in Earthworld. Could be a good lead-in to getting the rest of the Earth gaming group over to Erfworld even.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Sieggy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:15 am

Something just occurred to me - Parson can take Spacerock and still leave the Portal open IF he orders his forces to start taking prisoners (which I assume would be a rather novel concept for them). As I understand it, the victory condition requires that all defending forces inside the Garrison zone must be croaked in order to achieve victory. If you have at least one or two living JS prisoners, you would, in reality, hold the garrison zone and have effectively won the battle - but because there are still JS units left, the flag doesn't change, and the portal remains open. You have emerged victorious, but until they are croaked, you haven't touched Home Plate, so to speak. When you decide you want to actually 'Officially' win, you croak the prisoners, and then the changes occur.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Ytaker » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:27 am

Selexor wrote:This would be the part where he advised Wanda to fly in and destroy the Tower as quickly as possible. And when Wanda failed to take his advice and was pinned down by Kingworld, he advised the Gobwin Knob troops on how to act while he came up with a plan. And when he came up with a plan, he expressly told them to do the only possible thing that could have saved them despite horrible risk, while he came to join the battle. You say that he should have ended the battle quickly? I say that he was trying to do exactly that. But when he became Chief Warlord, he looked at where he'd be the most possible use - Gobwin Knob or Spacerock. The decision wasn't entirely selfless, I agree, but the fact is that he's of more use in Spacerock than Gobwin Knob. The choice to go wasn't brilliant, but neither was staying put. He's absolutely right - his side needs him.


He was right to order Wanda, yes. He is poor at dealing with her emotional state.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/55/

Collapsing the tower was not in his original plan, his fool noted that. If he did that he would be captured. He told them to wait for him.

He performed his underground dash as fast as he could, and Jojo overtook him in the tunnel. A Caster of unknown alliance, power level and ability, in a place where Parson had good reason to fear attack from enemy Casters. When Parson found that he couldn't outrun Jojo he quite reasonably turned to defend himself, at which point Jojo assured Parson that he was not an enemy, but was in fact trying to help him. Given the circumstances and how grim things look for Parson - remembering that he does not know what we know by this point - can you blame him for at least listening to what Jojo had to say on the faint chance the offer was genuine? And when Jojo informed him that the spell would do something Parson did desperately want... yes, listening was a little selfish, but again, how can you blame him for at least listening to Jojo?


http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_62

When that happens, as you are standing right next to the exit you cut it open with your sword, while holding the staff in front of you, and leave. He instead spent three full comics talking to him. Or you barrel through it with all your weight, spin and hold the staff in front of you. The exit now opens and your casters come disable him. Thanking your casters you run to the exit and save your troops. Given the circumstances and how grim things look, what could a random caster possibly do that would be more valuable than potentially losing most of his remaining troops to some ploy by the enemy?

I can blame him because he was selfish and so his troops died. He could have protected his troops had he got there earlier. He chose his personal safety over the enemy, in the middle of a ploy that was supposed to save his troops.

When Parson did get hold of the scroll, the very first thing he did right away was show it to Sizemore, who had no idea what it would do. When that didn't work, he showed it to Isaac, who also had no idea. He's not making rash decisions here, he's trying to do the right thing. And most importantly, he turned down Jojo's offer because he has a job to do.


He's not making rash decisions with his body, no. He is the most important person in the world after all. He turned down Jojo's offer because he didn't trust the scroll not to kill him.

Also, keep in mind that at this point, Parson doesn't know what's happening at Spacerock. He knows that the Dwagon Drop worked and that Jack and Wanda are alive, and they're developing a growing force of Decrypted troops. But this is all he knows. Not only does he not know the tower is about to come down, he doesn't even know if his side holds the Portal Room yet, and if he'll pop out of the Magic Kingdom into a room full of angry Jetstone infantry.
He does not know that time is as short as it is, and actually has a plausible reason to drag his feet, just a little. So far as he's aware, taking five minutes to get to Jetstone instead of three minutes will have no adverse effect, and if those two minutes gain him an ally, it's a sound decision.


He didn't order his troops to drop the tower as mentioned before.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_55

He didn't go until he knew his units had secured the portal room.

If he thinks that there's no difference between five and three minutes, he is a fool.

No, he made the tunnel because if he walked through the Magic Kingdom in front of everyone he'd be blasted into charred Hamster Chunks and used to fertilise the Hippiemancer's flowers. The tunnel means that he can't be directly attacked from the side, and that there's even a chance some casters won't even notice him. Yes, it failed, but that's not because of anything Parson did - he had no way of knowing Jojo or tGMtTA would ambush him at either end of the tunnel. If not for those who were specifically waiting for him, the tunnel would have actually worked.


http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_66

The enemy who reached him (admittedly only because of the stupidity of Maggie) likely wouldn't have reached him if he'd focused on his troops, not himself. He was warned by another caster to hurry and ignored her.

"Marie: Come on now, we should hurry.

This won't be easy. "

Instead he focused on his personal issues and drama.

He had also been seen and his arrival predicted by a carnymancer just earlier, he should have assumed other carnymancers may do the same. Predict that the same thing will happen in the future as happened in the past.

He needs allies in the Magic Kingdom because if he doesn't, he'll have nothing but enemies in the Magic Kingdom. Explain to me how having everyone in the island full of magic-wielders wanting you croaked is a good thing. Then explain how, in war, having another ally, no matter who they are, is a bad thing. He needs allies because he needs allies, period. Allies who are powerful casters? Even better?


It's rather unrealistic to expect everyone in the magic kingdom to hate him, its quite diverse. And rather hopeful to expect this caster holding a scroll to do more than cast a scroll on him.

Also, it's not great goal setting if he delays in the magic kingdom to pick up allies. Allies are helpful, but his troops are more important.

And yes, let's be straightforward, here. He does need to stop and natter to Marie and Janis and Sizemore. They burst in to save him from Jojo's ambush, and after fending him off, outright told Parson that he needed to get off his butt and move, which is exactly what you seem to be saying Parson should do. They're on your side here, man! They told him to ignore the distractions, go to Spacerock, and get the job done!


I'm not sure what you are arguing here. They told him to move, he ignored them and had a quick chat. How does that not point to him being selfish? They were right, he was wrong.

No, he was the first one to say that they should destroy the tower, and Wanda ignored his advice. Yes, the tower should have come down faster, but what on Erf does that have to do with anything, and how could it possibly be related to a failure on Parson's behalf? By Luckamancy or by Fate, it stood stubborn until the right moment to fall, which was also the worst moment for Parson. And considering he's being ambushed and manipulated, I'd say that he's anything but "happy to spend time chatting to people while his troops were dying". Judging by what he's saying to Isaac, he seems pretty pissed off about it.


He didn't order the tower knocked down again.

Well, because the tunnel was made to prevent an Ambush, and Sizemore didn't notice Jojo. And Maggie told him to wait until she thought it was safe, and she neglected to tell him that this meant summoning tGMtTA to the scene. He couldn't have predicted the ambush because the people who were his eyes and ears in the Magic Kingdom very specifically told him that if he went now, he wouldn't be ambushed, and they were wrong because they'd been withholding information. Again: Not Parson's fault, not Parson's plan.


The people who were his eyes and ears told him to go now so he would avoid being ambushed.

The Archons have been shown to become nervous wrecks without Charlie there to advise them, following Charlie's Rules to the letter and being very uncertain a lot of the time. Without Charlie, they take advice from Mistress Wanda instead. And again, I fail to see what the tower taking a while to fall has anything to do with... well, anything! The Archons can't land, they can't engage the tower themselves, they can do nothing but hover there and look pretty. There is literally no way in which they can influence this fight at all unless it goes into the Airspace, which Parson had no reason to suspect it would yet.


I am just saying the Archons are smart enough to know when the tower should fall.

And as far as making another Gobwin Knob unit like Sylvia into Chief Warlord? He told the Tool to do exactly that. He very specifically said that he did not want to be made Chief. The only reason he got the job was because his Thinkamancer literally mind-controlled Stanley into promoting Parson regardless of this.


Yes, it was a poor move.

Everything you're saying that makes Parson a bad Warlord is someone else ignoring his advice, keeping secrets from him, or actively trying to attack him. Yet despite this, Parson's advice saved Gobwin Knob's troops from certain defeat in the Airspace and have pushed matters in the Magic Kingdom to where he's finally getting a look at the full picture. None of the things that have gone wrong up to this point have been his fault in any way, but he's still standing and still trying to help his side as best he can. Sounds like what a good leader should be doing to me.


Not quite.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:00 am

Swodaems wrote:I am going to have to ask that you further define the phrase 'join a side'.


Turn to GK. The mechanism is unexplained, but the result is. It's in one of the text pages. Good luck re-reading and finding it.

I don't believe there is much out there besides oblique references to a guard on the GK portal and the death threats.


I don't accept your definition of "oblique". Such claims of scale are fundamentally an ego-defense against others trashing your opinions.

[humor]I'm not convinced you're qualified to make the determination you made either.[/humor] We both spouting opinions here.


Nope. You're spouting unconventional claims about a protagonist on a fan site, just like a troll spoiling for a fight. You're dropping all the classic ego-defenses in place already, so that you can ignore anything anyone else states.

Don't know why you're at it now. You've been around this site a while. Don't know if we've had it out before. But you're acting like a troll.

We can either do it by stating how we feel about the characters or how we feel about each other.


Only two options? I am never limited by another's limitations: my bag of tricks is a lot deeper than that.

Another troll trying to limit my responses. Golly gee willikers, does that ever work?

The word everyone was meant as a hyperbole. I apologize if you thought it was meant to be taken as a serious statement of fact.


No, I don't think it was, at all. It's more like you are simply trying to create enemies for yourself by including everyone in a generalized statement looking for an antagonist. I think you wrote this for exactly the result you got -- a troll trying to find an argument.

And that's not an apology if you blame me for your mistake. Take responsibility, or don't. This was just ego-defense blaming me for your own failure of getting your point across, if you're being honest. Which you're not.

I knew that a significant chunk of humanity is simply incapable of understanding it or sarcasm when I made the post, but I did it anyway.


No, you were using it as a troll to try to gather enemies.

I'm sorry. I would still like your opinion on the rest of the paragraph however. Do you think Parson has lost status as a sympathetic character in this comic due to his lack of a point of view text in book 2?


Couldn't care less.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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