Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

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Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby randomthought » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:34 pm

In the summer update it shows Vinny taming a feral bat. That leaves the question, is it possible to tame dragons without the Archhammer, maybe with a Turnamacer? Greater question, what animals do you think are tamable? Wolves? Mice?
If dragons are do you think any side tries to tame dragons other than Stanley? Dragon battle would be one hell of a fight.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Nnelg » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:48 am

" 'Dragon' ? What kind of stupid name is that?"

But, yeah I think it's plausible to tame a dwagon without the Arkenhammer. It seemed to me that it just gives a 100% success rate.

Also, if another side had tamed some dwagons the hammer might be able to turn them.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:55 am

With a non-100% success rate, it's a much riskier endeavor to tame a dwagon than taming most other wild critters.

I wonder if the hammer is actually a general-purpose critter tamer, and he's only tried it on dwagons.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:16 am

I suspect a Turnamancer might be able to try their hand at taming wild creatures, but it seems more within the realm of Carnymancy based just on the name/reference of the discipline. Plus the 'Hammer displays what are (in my opinion) all possible applications of Carnymancy ("cheap tricks" like levitation, lightning effects, magic tricks with birds) so it makes sense that a normal Carnymancer could do it with varying degrees of success. The same logic holds that the "Hammer can probably tame other wild units as well, and Stanley just hasn't had the chance to try (Gobwin and the like are Natural Sides, not Wild, so he probably couldn't try it on them)
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Nnelg » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:31 am

0beron wrote:I suspect a Turnamancer might be able to try their hand at taming wild creatures, but it seems more within the realm of Carnymancy based just on the name/reference of the discipline. Plus the 'Hammer displays what are (in my opinion) all possible applications of Carnymancy ("cheap tricks" like levitation, lightning effects, magic tricks with birds) so it makes sense that a normal Carnymancer could do it with varying degrees of success. The same logic holds that the "Hammer can probably tame other wild units as well, and Stanley just hasn't had the chance to try (Gobwin and the like are Natural Sides, not Wild, so he probably couldn't try it on them)

Oooh, I hadn't thought about that potential facet of Carnymancy. I think I'll put it in my game, if you don't mind...

Also, I don't think turnamancy would do it here, as you're not really 'turning' something.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:35 am

Nnelg wrote:Oooh, I hadn't thought about [Taming] as a potential facet of Carnymancy. I think I'll put it in my game, if you don't mind...
Also, I don't think turnamancy would do it here, as you're not really 'turning' something.

Oh I don't mind in the least! And I agree, Turnamancy would be a stretch, with a lower success rate at best.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Saladman » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:28 pm

From Book 2, text update 44:

Stanley wrote:He really should teach himself to use the thing better. Wanda said she thought it was a whole mess of different magicks, what'd she say...Shockmancy, obviously. Rhyme-o-mancy because it rocked out. Carnymancy because it made big flashes and sometimes could make things disappear (he never could do it on purpose, though). And what else? Changemancy? He looked at the hammer closely. There might be a lot more he could do with it besides taming dwagons, which was...Date-o-mancy, he guessed?


Granted that's Stanley, and even he's not sure, so Rob's left himself two outs there. Still, its all we've got, and it is a plausible addition to Date-o-mancy's theme of evaluating compatibility, just adding a more active element.

Turnamancy's an obvious possibility, though I kind of like the idea there's some limit to their uber-powers, and a distinction between side-aligned and feral units might be it. Carnymancy was a good guess when we hadn't seen one, but the more we learn about their other powers (patter, flashes, and straight up making things disappear, apparently including units given the scroll offered Parson) the less necessary it is to their being an effective discipline.

Alternately, taming may be a function available to several disciplines, similar to the way that Findamancy apparently encompasses summons, and Hat Magic also uses conjuration, including summoning combat-capable rabbits*, rather than the D&D kind of system where Conjuration/Summoning is one unique (but somewhat sterile) specialization. So the answer might be 2 or 3 of the above.

*Or... wabbits? I wonder which way Erf Language swings on that one.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby cloudbreaker » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:10 am

I personally like the idea that there is more than one way to turn a unit.

Turnamancy seems to manually switch which side's orders a unit follows.
I could see Date-a-mancy being used for persuading units to come to their side (as in wanting to be with the ones you love).
I could see Carnymancy being used for intimidating a unit into joining their side (as in lion taming).
I could see a Hat Magician making a cap that makes the wearer part of their side, either permanently or as long as the hat is there.
I could see a Thinkamancer brainwashing someone into thinking it would be a good idea to turn to their side.
I could see a Foolamancer tricking someone into thinking that they had been turned to another side, and they turn to the Foolamancer's side thinking that it was their original one, only to find out it wasn't (that one makes my head spin).
Wanda sort of uses the pliers to turn units using Croakamancy.
And who knows what Wierdomancy might be capable of.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:17 am

cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Hat Magician making a cap that makes the wearer part of their side, either permanently or as long as the hat is there.

Not sure about this one, seems totally unrelated to any of a Hat Magician's demonstrated powers.
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Foolamancer tricking someone...(that one makes my head spin).

Too OP, Foolamancers are already very powerful, so even if this works, it would be more of a temporary distraction which prevents the unit from acting or something. Definitely wouldn't be a long term "turn".
cloudbreaker wrote:Wanda sort of uses the pliers to turn units using Croakamancy.

The 'Pliers are a very unique case, they are a 'Tool after all, so they can't really tell us anything about what normal Croakamancy does. And even so, the "turning" aspect of the 'Pliers is no different from normal croakamancy. You take a corpse formerly of another side, and turn it into a "new" unit of your side.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby cloudbreaker » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:49 am

0beron wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Hat Magician making a cap that makes the wearer part of their side, either permanently or as long as the hat is there.

Not sure about this one, seems totally unrelated to any of a Hat Magician's demonstrated powers.

All of the Hat Magic demonstrated powers seem unrelated to Hat Magic demonstrated powers. Sending messages/gems, creating thinking caps, conjuring attack bunnies, animating snow golems. I still don't think it is outside the realm of possibility, or even plausibility. Especially if created in a link like the Laurel of Napster was.

0beron wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Foolamancer tricking someone...(that one makes my head spin).

Too OP, Foolamancers are already very powerful, so even if this works, it would be more of a temporary distraction which prevents the unit from acting or something. Definitely wouldn't be a long term "turn".

I don't think it would be overpowered, especially since it would be just as easy for the unit to turn back as it would be to convince them to turn in the first place. Probably much, much easier, actually. The described Foolamancy trick would be an incredibly inefficient and inadvisable method for getting someone to turn, but still a method.

0beron wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:Wanda sort of uses the pliers to turn units using Croakamancy.

The 'Pliers are a very unique case, they are a 'Tool after all, so they can't really tell us anything about what normal Croakamancy does. And even so, the "turning" aspect of the 'Pliers is no different from normal croakamancy. You take a corpse formerly of another side, and turn it into a "new" unit of your side.

The 'pliers are certainly a unique case. But the turning aspect is different because the new units have their old memories, as well as personalities. The closest we got to seeing an uncroaked with a memory was in this panel.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:14 am

cloudbreaker wrote:
0beron wrote:The 'Pliers are a very unique case, they are a 'Tool after all, so they can't really tell us anything about what normal Croakamancy does. And even so, the "turning" aspect of the 'Pliers is no different from normal croakamancy. You take a corpse formerly of another side, and turn it into a "new" unit of your side.

The 'pliers are certainly a unique case. But the turning aspect is different because the new units have their old memories, as well as personalities. The closest we got to seeing an uncroaked with a memory was in this panel.

Hahahahaha very true. But really that is just because they're a better "uncroaked". The 'Pliers allow Wanda to create PERFECT uncroaked. In fact, Manpower remembering "pie" actually suggests that it is possible (though normally beyond a croakamancers ability) for uncroaked to retain mental capacities from their lifetime.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Lamech » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:59 pm

Lets see here: there seems to be a normal way for warlords to tame units. Or possibly a special that some warlords have. It could be part of leadership, another special entirely or it could be something any unit can do like singing (although I suspect that unlead units will have trouble due to auto-attacks.) I'm betting its some sort of special though, or at least something you can get better at with a special (like archery). Therefore methods of taming units, and possibly dwagons if you are good enough:

cloudbreaker wrote:Turnamancy seems to manually switch which side's orders a unit follows.
Obviously
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see Date-a-mancy being used for persuading units to come to their side (as in wanting to be with the ones you love).
Its the power of relationships as far as I've seen. So I bet it would tie a unit to a specific person. (Like Stanley and his hammer). Probably different than turnamancy since it is a tie to a specific unit.

cloudbreaker wrote:I could see Carnymancy being used for intimidating a unit into joining their side (as in lion taming).
There has got to be a method of rigging the game, that helps with the normal procedure of turning units. I bet it definitely can do something like lion taming, probably aiding in the normal methods of taming.
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Hat Magician making a cap that makes the wearer part of their side, either permanently or as long as the hat is there.
Maybe. No idea what hat magic is capable of though. It seems to make magic hats that affect the wearer and banishing/summoning stuff from hats. So its certainly a possibility.
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Thinkamancer brainwashing someone into thinking it would be a good idea to turn to their side.
Yup, pretty obvious.
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see a Foolamancer tricking someone into thinking that they had been turned to another side, and they turn to the Foolamancer's side thinking that it was their original one, only to find out it wasn't (that one makes my head spin).
There is probably some sort of foolamancy to help with normal procedures of taming/turning.
cloudbreaker wrote:Wanda sort of uses the pliers to turn units using Croakamancy.
Dead units. I bet that with heavy duty experimentation on croaked units you could really improve croakamancy though. (Mummies decaying slower, chimerical zombies, a unit with the rest of the body kept artificially alive and a dead brain ect.) So you could probably get something like turning.
cloudbreaker wrote:And who knows what Wierdomancy might be capable of.
I bet it can grant a special that helps turn units. Or improve an existing one.

Back to taming units: They mention breaking feral mounts, so presumably those are tamable as well. So I would guess that taming things other than bats is possible. Now taming dwagons without the hammer? Maybe? It could be something like creating decrypted without the pliers, or it might be like sending thinkagrams without the dish.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:50 pm

Lamech wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:I could see Carnymancy being used for intimidating a unit into joining their side (as in lion taming).
There has got to be a method of rigging the game, that helps with the normal procedure of turning units. I bet it definitely can do something like lion taming, probably aiding in the normal methods of taming.

"Rigging the game" doesn't have to be involved at all. That was just one character's description of the school, it may not be all-inclusive or even true. Also, we've seen that other schools cover related but distinct aspects. Florists deal with both peace and literal flowers, Turnamancers deal with both time and allegiance. So there's nothing to say Carnymancy can't cover "rigging the game" and taming/circus tricks.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Selexor » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:33 pm

Well, keep in mind what Headmaster Issaac said when he looked at the Carnymancy scroll - that it might send Parson home, or it might destroy him, but either way it's designed to wipe him off Charlie's game board. Think about the significance of that. Headmaster Issaac, quite probably one of the most knowledgable units in Erfworld as to how Magic works, if not THE most knowledgable unit, is handed a Carnymancy scroll, told what it probably does, and has absolutely no idea what it really does at all.
Ignoring the aspect of what it means for Carnymancy being inscrutable, Issaac has to know what limits Carnymancy has. If it's capable of sending Parson home, it might be able to reverse the Lookamancy and Findamancy aspects of the spell that brought Parson here, or it might be able to break the spell that binds him to Erfworld, which is probably a Naughtymancy branch. If it's going to destroy Parson, that sounds like Shockamancy, or perhaps it's designed to make Parson unable to function, which could be any combination of Signamancy, Thinkamancy, Changemancy or Weirdomancy.
All of those are plausible options for what this one spell can do, this one spell that Issaac can determine the purpose of, but the way in which it functions could be any of those at all. And he cannot tell which.

The point is, that's as close as anything we've seen that says Carnymancy can pull effects that would normally be governed by other Magic schools, and that it's impossible to tell how it works until it happens. If it were a Shockamancy scroll, maybe Issaac doesn't know how it'll work, but he knows it'll hurt Parson. A Healomancy scroll, whatever it does, it'll heal him somehow. A Dirtamancy scroll, fine, the effect will have something to do with dirt and/or golems. But with a Carnymancy scroll, we learn that Carnymancy can do damn near anything.

Now we look at the powers of the Arkenhammer!
It randomly turns nuts into birds and birds into nuts. (Changemancy)
It randomly makes things disappear. (Unknown, possibly Hat Magic or Changemancy)
It semi-predictably sends bolts of shockamancy out. (Shockamancy)
It predictably tames Dwagons. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy to alter Loyalty)
It predictably allows the wielder to fly. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy, or even a Dollamancy buff like King Slately's jetpack)
It predictably allows the wielder to Rock Out. (Stagemancy or Rhyme-O-Mancy)


Combine what we know about Master Issaac's observations on Carnymancy with what we know about the Arkenhammer. I'd say that thing's pretty certain to be Carnymancy-governed.

As to whether it's possible to tame Dwagons without it, well, that all depends what school of magic "Taming" normally falls under. My guess is Weirdomancy, if it's not a racial thing like Transylvito Vampires taming bats. So I'd say it's possible.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Saladman » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:48 am

Selexor wrote:<Well, lots of stuff, but lets take this.>

Now we look at the powers of the Arkenhammer!
It randomly turns nuts into birds and birds into nuts. (Changemancy)
It randomly makes things disappear. (Unknown, possibly Hat Magic or Changemancy)
It semi-predictably sends bolts of shockamancy out. (Shockamancy)
It predictably tames Dwagons. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy to alter Loyalty)
It predictably allows the wielder to fly. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy, or even a Dollamancy buff like King Slately's jetpack)
It predictably allows the wielder to Rock Out. (Stagemancy or Rhyme-O-Mancy)


Stanley thinking about his 'hammer wrote:Carnymancy because it made big flashes and sometimes could make things disappear...


So making stuff disappear is Carnymancy. Sending Parson home or destroying him utterly would both count as making Parson disappear, a known function of Carnymancy. Moreover, patter and "granting wishes" as Marie put it, but with results that are "never good" must cover some amount of obfuscation. I must suggest that your whole theory, and especially the part about pulling effects governed by other schools, relies on skipping over the most straightforward theory.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:18 am

Selexor wrote:Well, keep in mind what Headmaster Issaac said when he looked at the Carnymancy scroll - that it might send Parson home, or it might destroy him, but either way it's designed to wipe him off Charlie's game board. Think about the significance of that. Headmaster Issaac, quite probably one of the most knowledgable units in Erfworld as to how Magic works, if not THE most knowledgable unit, is handed a Carnymancy scroll, told what it probably does, and has absolutely no idea what it really does at all.
?
Or he knows it will send Parson somewhere, but he doesn't know if its home or some place spectacularly lethal. (Volcano anyone?) In addition it was immediately identified as including Charlie, so it also contains thinkamancy (and thinkamancy backlash can kill) and possibly a third school of magic. So what that really means is that carnymancy or some other sort of magic in the scroll has the ability to send Parson home, and one of the magicks in the scroll could kill him. Even if it was Carnymancy that had those two effects? Thinkamancy can brainwash and kill (backlash). Dirtamancy can tunnel and kill (cave-in.) Flower power can stop fights and kill. (Poison). Hat Magic can make stuff appear and kill. (Bust a cap). Luckamancy can bless and kill (via a curse). Dollamancy can make items give flight when used or explode when used. (Those grenades we saw.)

I would be more surprised if Carnymancy didn't have a way to kill and at least one other class of effects. (Ignoring the fact that banishing someone could very well send them into a volcano.)

tl;dr: Being able to send someone away and do damage isn't any broader than most other kinds of magic.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Nnelg » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:57 pm

Selexor wrote:
Spoiler: show
Well, keep in mind what Headmaster Issaac said when he looked at the Carnymancy scroll - that it might send Parson home, or it might destroy him, but either way it's designed to wipe him off Charlie's game board. Think about the significance of that. Headmaster Issaac, quite probably one of the most knowledgable units in Erfworld as to how Magic works, if not THE most knowledgable unit, is handed a Carnymancy scroll, told what it probably does, and has absolutely no idea what it really does at all.
Ignoring the aspect of what it means for Carnymancy being inscrutable, Issaac has to know what limits Carnymancy has. If it's capable of sending Parson home, it might be able to reverse the Lookamancy and Findamancy aspects of the spell that brought Parson here, or it might be able to break the spell that binds him to Erfworld, which is probably a Naughtymancy branch. If it's going to destroy Parson, that sounds like Shockamancy, or perhaps it's designed to make Parson unable to function, which could be any combination of Signamancy, Thinkamancy, Changemancy or Weirdomancy.
All of those are plausible options for what this one spell can do, this one spell that Issaac can determine the purpose of, but the way in which it functions could be any of those at all. And he cannot tell which.

The point is, that's as close as anything we've seen that says Carnymancy can pull effects that would normally be governed by other Magic schools, and that it's impossible to tell how it works until it happens. If it were a Shockamancy scroll, maybe Issaac doesn't know how it'll work, but he knows it'll hurt Parson. A Healomancy scroll, whatever it does, it'll heal him somehow. A Dirtamancy scroll, fine, the effect will have something to do with dirt and/or golems. But with a Carnymancy scroll, we learn that Carnymancy can do damn near anything.

Now we look at the powers of the Arkenhammer!
It randomly turns nuts into birds and birds into nuts. (Changemancy)
It randomly makes things disappear. (Unknown, possibly Hat Magic or Changemancy)
It semi-predictably sends bolts of shockamancy out. (Shockamancy)
It predictably tames Dwagons. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy to alter Loyalty)
It predictably allows the wielder to fly. (Unknown, possibly Weirdomancy, or even a Dollamancy buff like King Slately's jetpack)
It predictably allows the wielder to Rock Out. (Stagemancy or Rhyme-O-Mancy)


Combine what we know about Master Issaac's observations on Carnymancy with what we know about the Arkenhammer. I'd say that thing's pretty certain to be Carnymancy-governed.

As to whether it's possible to tame Dwagons without it, well, that all depends what school of magic "Taming" normally falls under. My guess is Weirdomancy, if it's not a racial thing like Transylvito Vampires taming bats. So I'd say it's possible.

How very astute. Now, while I don't like assigning narrow definitions of what particular kinds of magic can and can't do, (it really takes the magic out of magic, if you know what I mean) if I had to name one school that fits the hammer best, it'd probably be carnymancy.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Glome » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 pm

I'm just going to leave this here. I'm not sure what comic this comes from, I randomly found the image the internet, although I bet Thor is referring to Loki. I wonder if we will eventually see a Loki inspired changemancer.

Image

Even better.

Image
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Nnelg » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:53 am

Glome wrote:I'm just going to leave this here. I'm not sure what comic this comes from, I randomly found the image the internet, although I bet Thor is referring to Loki. I wonder if we will eventually see a Loki inspired changemancer.

Actually, I find Jack to fit the "trickster" persona almost to the letter. But for a Marvel-style Loki? It's always possible he'll get a cameo in the MK.
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Re: Dragons, Are they tamable without hammer?

Postby Werebiscuit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:07 am

Hammers, pigeons and nuts.... even if they aren't walnuts...now where have I seen those before ?....

Well done Glome !
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