Book 2 – Page 84

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Sizemore

Postby onlyme » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:27 am

clik wrote:Perhaps it will not be Parson who reads Jojo's scroll, but Sizemore. Sizemore seems as unhappy in Erfworld much as Parson did in Earthworld. Could be a good lead-in to getting the rest of the Earth gaming group over to Erfworld even.


I think it is quite too unlikely. What effect would Sizemore think to get? If it is a return-home scroll, what would he gain? He already is home, just his old King is no more. If it is a croak spell, he could get that easier by angering Stanley. And go into an absurd world where even people like Parson are not happy, not quite his advantures.

But speaking of Sizemore, I'm quite curious how he will gain the final leves to become master? Will Parson experiment with cities producing more? Perhaps even make Sizemore manage cities so he can learn how to optimize the buildings to produce more output? Or just more military uses like inventing bombs that can be thrown off dragons like Parson already mused about?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Swodaems » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:42 am

Kreistor wrote:
Swodaems wrote:I am going to have to ask that you further define the phrase 'join a side'.


Turn to GK. The mechanism is unexplained, but the result is. It's in one of the text pages. Good luck re-reading and finding it.
So you are asking me, your opponent, to shoulder the burden of proof for your claim? I'm going to take a page from your book and stop reading the rest of your post now. (So you know, that last sentence was another hyperbole.)

Kreistor wrote:fan site
Actually, I don't think this fits the definition of 'fan site'. This is an author sponsered avenue of feedback for his work. Opinions positive and negitive should go here. The reason you find the claims I'm making so abrasive is that you were never the real intended audience.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:51 am

Swodaems wrote:
Kreistor wrote:fan site
Actually, I don't think this fits the definition of 'fan site'. This is an author sponsered avenue of feedback for his work. Opinions positive and negitive should go here. The reason you find the claims I'm making so abrasive is that you were never the real intended audience.

Okay I've ignored the ridiculous walls of text until now, but this bit I can't pass over. This forum is, and I quote, intended for "Page by page discussion of the comic." There is no element of feedback stated, in fact I can pretty much guarantee you that (like many if not most artists) Rob doesn't care what you think of the comic. He loves the fact that people enjoy it and that he has fans, but he has decided on what the story is going to be and your comments are not going to affect that (assuming he even takes the huge chunk of time required to read the huge wall of text).
Rob likely skims our discussions here and I've noticed he will sometimes "throw us a bone" if he notices we are debating a particular mechanic of Erfworld that appears unclear. So in that respect, you could say he looks for "feedback" on whether what he showed us was clear enough to be understood. But he's not looking for feedback on the content of the plot itself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Sushi Database » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:03 pm

In the criticisms of Parsons actions, people seem to not be mentioning a possibility. Whatever Parson believes his reasons for invading the Magical Kingdom, we know the spell that summoned him was crafted by special interests that intend (or so they claim) to want to make war on war itself. Obviously, once word gets out that Portals can be used by the enemies (the rest of Erf doesnt know that Parson's special is probably unique), war is going to change for everyone. People may stop hiring mancers, and that will shift balance in ways we cant even begin to predict.

Parson may think what he's doing here is part of his strategy, and it is possible that he is yet planning something clever with those gadgets he grabbed from his armory. After all, look how much more badass Slately was with his gadgets! But whether this is strategically advantageous or not, it's not unreasonable to suppose that he could be acting under a mild compulsion to fulfill thus unknown conditions involved with his summoning spell. It binds him in obvious ways to Gobwin Knob, why not in more subtle ways to Marie and Janis' cause?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm

Swodaems wrote:
Kreistor wrote:...

Gah, don't encourage him, Swodaems.

For my part, I echo the sentiment of your original post, if not the intensity of conviction.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:43 pm

Sushi Database wrote:Parson may think what he's doing here is part of his strategy, and it is possible that he is yet planning something clever with those gadgets he grabbed from his armory.


If Parson's plan is erfworld domination, then surely the magic kingdom will eventually become one of the greatest obstacles to his success... a single side world has no need for neutral ground or neutral casters. Perhaps you're right, and this is a preemptive strike intended to cut TMK off from the rest of the world (who would dare maintain a portal after this)? However, this plan runs the risk of uniting TMK against Parson long before he's ready to deal with them all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Swodaems » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:17 pm

0beron wrote:
Swodaems wrote:
Kreistor wrote:fan site
Actually, I don't think this fits the definition of 'fan site'. This is an author sponsered avenue of feedback for his work. Opinions positive and negitive should go here. The reason you find the claims I'm making so abrasive is that you were never the real intended audience.

Okay I've ignored the ridiculous walls of text until now, but this bit I can't pass over. This forum is, and I quote, intended for "Page by page discussion of the comic." There is no element of feedback stated, in fact I can pretty much guarantee you that (like many if not most artists) Rob doesn't care what you think of the comic. He loves the fact that people enjoy it and that he has fans, but he has decided on what the story is going to be and your comments are not going to affect that (assuming he even takes the huge chunk of time required to read the huge wall of text).
Rob likely skims our discussions here and I've noticed he will sometimes "throw us a bone" if he notices we are debating a particular mechanic of Erfworld that appears unclear. So in that respect, you could say he looks for "feedback" on whether what he showed us was clear enough to be understood. But he's not looking for feedback on the content of the plot itself.

The man's own words have indicated that he does look to this board for feedback.

From http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=152&p=1555#p1555
balder wrote:However, the general zeitgeist of what the board posters squabble about and get fixated on can be kind of a vague pointer for me, as I think about what to say and what to show. I get a sense of what's causing confusion and needs clearing up, and also where any interesting ground I might have missed is. That's a very broad thing, though.

From http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=255&p=3079#p3079
balder wrote:I want people's real reactions

From http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=334&p=5193#p5193
balder wrote:EDIT: Fixed it. This is why writers need editors. And movies need focus groups. Sorry about that.

From http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=417&p=7865#p7865
balder wrote:We appreciate the feedback here, guys.


I'm doing my best to relate my opinion on the story. Sometimes I fail to adequately relate what I'm saying, and other times, I piss somebody off. Sometimes what I think of as a friendly argument affects someone in a way I didn't forsee. Sometimes I get pissed off myself and it leaks into my posts. I apologize for such instances and ask for your understanding with them. I'm only human.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:34 pm

That's fair, though I think you missed the point of what I said (and maybe this is just a misunderstanding of semantics). All of those quotes you provided demonstrate the Rob wants feedback on the format of what he delivers, and takes our varying points of confusion or excitement into consideration for filling in details. We catch spelling or numerical errors, or get confused when he delivers something in an unclear way. But nowhere does he ask for critique of the actual plot/content.

You can debate about whether Parson has been making good choices or not, but ultimately that aspect of feedback probably does nothing to influence Rob. He has decided what story he wants to tell, and his characters are going to make the decisions he wants. He may see that we're conflicted on the topic...and he may decide that's how he wants us to feel. Or he may in the future reveal information that validates Parson. But he's not going to change his plot just because some forumites think "Parson is being stupid".

As for my personal take on it....I feel that perhaps Parson could have made a better choice. But THIS choice is perfectly in character for him. And the fact that we are so divided and opinionated about what he's done just shows what an excellent story Rob is weaving. I wouldn't want him to change that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:57 pm

I would sign that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby coyotenose » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:20 pm

I don't get why folks are continuing to insist on Parson being "The Perfect Warlord" and criticizing his actions on that basis. He is very obviously NOT the perfect warlord, and has never been such, even with his sword, glasses and gauntlet. It was clear early on in Book One that said description came with an unspoken qualifier that no one in the story itself realized: Parson was the Perfect Warlord for The Battle for Gobwin Knob. Or perhaps more accurately, the warlord that would have been summoned in his place had Stanley not complicated the casting of the scroll would have been the perfect warlord for TBfGK, and Parson was as good as one could come and still possess all the specific Tool-decreed qualities.

Either way, TBfGK is long over. Now Parson is just The Warlord Who Is Incredibly Dangerous Because He Thinks Like A Player.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby coyotenose » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

Ytaker wrote:
Assuming that is true, he shouldn't have dilly dallied in middle of the tunnel for a while to chat up a carnymancer, reconnect with his dirtamancer. Apparantly he thinks his main goal should be to chat to the locals, as that is the main thing he is doing.


He didn't stop for the purpose of chatting with anyone. He stopped and readied himself for battle because a caster that he couldn't outrun was chasing him. Said caster then displayed specific private knowledge of him and offered something totally unexpected. Parson isn't a robot.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed where this was already addressed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Swodaems wrote:So you are asking me, your opponent, to shoulder the burden of proof for your claim? I'm going to take a page from your book and stop reading the rest of your post now. (So you know, that last sentence was another hyperbole.)


No, I'm expecting you to go back and remember that we already discussed this at least twice, review the old threads or re-read the comic, and refresh your memory. What I a not doing is wasting even three minutes satisfying your need to feel powerful in forcing other people to waste time catering to your whims. Played that game far too many times here, and on this very subject, too.

This is an author sponsered avenue of feedback for his work.


Then direct your feedback to Rob. You're attacking other posters, which is very much not what you just said this site is for. Since Rob never responds on such feedback, except maybe in the comic itself or very rarely when he did not get a technical point across properly in the text, you should not be caring if anyone supports or attacks your position, nor should you be calling me an "opponent". You're looking for an argument, which is not a part of an "author-sponsored avenue of feedback".

Fan sites are for debate and discussion. If that's not what this site is, but what you're looking for, then you should look elsewhere.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:45 pm

Parson deviated from the perfect warlord path anyway, the stupid meals said the sword and other tidbits were to make up for the failed spell. He broke fate, threw of the sword and the nonswearing rule of erfworld. He is what he is, Parson, and that means he's a pretty good GM.

Also, I think Rob might actually read these for use. I mean what author wouldn't like to know if what he's trying to accomplish comes off the right way. He might not change what happens but he might change the words and how he frames it. If everyone agreed that Parson was completely unsympathetic and horrible, (He's not to me <3 Parson) he might choose carefully the way he frames things or add events that don't impact the story in the way it's going but add more emotional depth, like a text update with Sizemore. I think he may do things like this it was mentioned he's done things in cannon to clarify things that turned out to be confusing. I'm not saying he does, but I would.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Kyrt » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:56 pm

Swodaems wrote:And they choose not to immediately fire. Instead they allowed Janis to arrange his safe incapacitation. As far as I'm concerned, the lack of shots fired means they weren't serious about croaking him. The drawn wands mean they were willing to protect themselves, but that is all.


They drew wands. They were and are hostile. That hostility has been commented upon by several casters and updates. The MK is not a friend of GK or of Parson. They don't like what his side is doing, they don't like that he is a Warlord who can enter the MK and they don't like the ramifications of where everything is leading.

Kyrt wrote:(Jojo's manuver with the scroll does not count as a serious attempt on Parson's life because, as Issac revealed just one page ago, that scroll could actually do what Jojo said.)


Eliminate him from Erfworld

Do you remember how he was introduced? He had a dead-end job he hated at Kinko's, a car that barely ran, a webcomic nobody read and didn't feel like changing any of that. Those indicate incompetence to me. I don't think his transition to another world changed who he was before.


He was also a master gamer and a "creator of worlds". He is seen as the most dangerous being on Erfworld for a reason. He took a side that was outnumbered 25-1 and won. Indeed, GK came out of that battle stronger than it went in. After being made Chief Warlord again, he was able to devise a winning plan that again turned a situation from certain doom into what seems a major victory and do so within minutes.

Considering that he has to actually be introduced to Janis, he can not have been trying that hard.


You assume that having to be introduced to one caster is sign he wasn't engaged.

The introduction therefore means that any attempts he made to reenter the MK peacefully could not have included a thinkagram to the person that he knew could keep him safe while he is there. The lack of that element means any attempt was piss-poor at best.


I can send plenty of e-mails to various people and still require introduction.

I agree he probably didn't but we have to remember he did consider going back only to be warned off that approach by Maggie. And Sizemore only emphasised the danger.

"I wouldn't, Lord," she warned. "When I went to call on Ken, I found they have our portal under guard. There are many in the Magic Kingdom who believe you ought to have been croaked, or at least captured."

Strong incentive then and there NOT to return to the MK, and strong indications that the MK is very hostile to them...an attitude that subsequent events and update showed to be true.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Ytaker » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:14 pm

coyotenose wrote:
Ytaker wrote:
Assuming that is true, he shouldn't have dilly dallied in middle of the tunnel for a while to chat up a carnymancer, reconnect with his dirtamancer. Apparantly he thinks his main goal should be to chat to the locals, as that is the main thing he is doing.


He didn't stop for the purpose of chatting with anyone. He stopped and readied himself for battle because a caster that he couldn't outrun was chasing him. Said caster then displayed specific private knowledge of him and offered something totally unexpected. Parson isn't a robot.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed where this was already addressed.


Let's see his full actions.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_62

He stopped, told him to stay back, asked him what he wanted, traded a witty comment, listened to a long speech, making passive remarks to get Jetti to expand himself.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_63

He traded some more remarks, noted he didn't have time, traded some more remarks, listened to another speech, traded some remarks about getting back.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_64

He said it was an interesting offer, traded some remarks on whether he should do it. Other casters came in, disabled Jetti.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_65

He asked what was going on, got acquintaned with everyone, asked how hippiemancy worked, had Jetti's position explained, explained his position on the scroll, got a counter argument from the predictomancer.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_66

His caster noted they should hurry, Parson asked him to check out his scroll, listened to Marie explain why he shouldn't use it. They then slowly walked up the stairs and found enemies there.

He and the predictomancer said he should hurry, indicating it would be an excellent idea. He made no effort to hurry and took five comics to get through. He may not have stopped for the specific purpose of chatting but he clearly had no aversion to it, despite noting himself he should hurry.

Parson is not a robot. Do you think he cares about his troops though, given this? It is perfectly human to care about yourself more than anyone else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Salem » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:28 am

Ytaker wrote:Parson is not a robot. Do you think he cares about his troops though, given this? It is perfectly human to care about yourself more than anyone else.


I don't think it's really either or. It could be a lot of things. He cares about himself 75~80%. Or more than likely, like most people, he's distracted from one value. If he was talking to jojo and was told OMG X just died. His own thoughts there would probably have went I'm bigger than yooooou buuullll ruuuuuusshhh. Or Haaamsstaaard ruuuush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby effataigus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:39 am

0beron wrote:That's fair, though I think you missed the point of what I said (and maybe this is just a misunderstanding of semantics). All of those quotes you provided demonstrate the Rob wants feedback on the format of what he delivers, and takes our varying points of confusion or excitement into consideration for filling in details. We catch spelling or numerical errors, or get confused when he delivers something in an unclear way. But nowhere does he ask for critique of the actual plot/content.


I think if you reread Swodaems' most controversial post on these forums you will find that it does two things:

1. Criticizes Parson for being Parson.
2. Criticizes the format of the comic. (needs a text update from Parson because he's increasingly unsympathetic).

Both of these are well within the scope of what is desired for these forums.

I'd go further to mention that Rob hasn't (to my knowledge) handed us a manifesto of what he does want aside from the word "Reactions." Nor has he handed us a manifesto of what he doesn't want other than "don't be a dick." In terms of giving us guidance by action, he has deleted a couple threads of people b****ing about update frequency... so I'm pretty sure he's no longer looking for negative input on that issue ;)

Anyway, all of this is to say that if what wasn't specifically asked is to be ruled specifically out of order, then you should probably go back and delete the better part of your posts! Beyond that, Swodaems was just expressing a reaction so... *puts on an owly bandana and hippie-glasses* ... don't tread on our first amendment, yo!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:53 pm

Salem wrote:
Ytaker wrote:Parson is not a robot. Do you think he cares about his troops though, given this? It is perfectly human to care about yourself more than anyone else.

I don't think it's really either or. It could be a lot of things. He cares about himself 75~80%. Or more than likely, like most people, he's distracted from one value. If he was talking to jojo and was told OMG X just died. His own thoughts there would probably have went I'm bigger than yooooou buuullll ruuuuuusshhh. Or Haaamsstaaard ruuuush.

That's right. First off, it wasn't an emergency situation (as far as Parson knew) because the situation in Spacerock was well under control (the last time he checked). Second, the main reason Parson was trying to hurry was to escape notice of the casters, and obviously that plan had (at least partially) failed. Finally, it is highly likely that Jojo, being a carnymancer, is an expert sweet-talker and knows how to reel in someone's attention, given the right bait (that Fate stuff). (Additionally, he might have used magic to supplement his persuasive power; but either way he probably didn't need to.)

From what I've seen of your arguments, you're basically saying "He's not a saint, therefore he's a cold-hearted bastard."

If Parson wasn't a human being, and therefore fallible, I'd agree that your conclusions are the most logical explanations for his actions. But as it stands his actions can be explained by much, much less severe character flaws than a complete ambivalence for the lives or deaths of his troops.


coyotenose wrote:I don't get why folks are continuing to insist on Parson being "The Perfect Warlord" and criticizing his actions on that basis. He is very obviously NOT the perfect warlord, and has never been such, even with his sword, glasses and gauntlet. It was clear early on in Book One that said description came with an unspoken qualifier that no one in the story itself realized: Parson was the Perfect Warlord for The Battle for Gobwin Knob. Or perhaps more accurately, the warlord that would have been summoned in his place had Stanley not complicated the casting of the scroll would have been the perfect warlord for TBfGK, and Parson was as good as one could come and still possess all the specific Tool-decreed qualities.

Either way, TBfGK is long over. Now Parson is just The Warlord Who Is Incredibly Dangerous Because He Thinks Like A Player.

Hm, that's quite astute actually. There can be no such thing as the "perfect warlord" for every situation, unless he was omniscient.


Kyrt wrote:
Swodaems wrote:And they choose not to immediately fire. Instead they allowed Janis to arrange his safe incapacitation. As far as I'm concerned, the lack of shots fired means they weren't serious about croaking him. The drawn wands mean they were willing to protect themselves, but that is all.

They drew wands. They were and are hostile. That hostility has been commented upon by several casters and updates. The MK is not a friend of GK or of Parson. They don't like what his side is doing, they don't like that he is a Warlord who can enter the MK and they don't like the ramifications of where everything is leading.

As anyone who knows how to properly handle a gun will tell you, you never point it at something you're not willing to shoot. And you never shoot at someone unless you're prepared to kill them. These may not be guns, but they're no less dangerous. So the same principle applies here.

The reason they didn't shoot immediately is likely because they'd be starting the very thing they fear: a war in the MK. And before you point it out, of course there's a chance such an incident might not start a war in the MK; but the same is true of how a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan might not spread to the rest of the world. If it was your finger on the trigger, would you really want to take that chance?


Swodaems wrote:The introduction therefore means that any attempts he made to reenter the MK peacefully could not have included a thinkagram to the person that he knew could keep him safe while he is there. The lack of that element means any attempt was piss-poor at best.

Or, maybe he just never attempted it. I can think of no practical reason for it, since it'd only heighten tensions. The best thing would have been to let things calm down for as long as possible before trying anything, and that's what Parson appears to have done.


Swodaems wrote:If they're still not shooting at him, I don't care how unfriendly they act. Depending on the local courts, I can tell you to your face that I am willing to kill you, but so long as I don't actually try, it's just harmless trash talk.

Ok, "the local courts" is about as arbitrary a frame of reference as you can ask for. Additionally, it doesn't matter what the verbatim letter of the law says, context gives plenty of credence to the threat. It doesn't even matter if it's trash talk, because it's by no means harmless given the gravity of the situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby teratorn » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:47 am

Nnelg wrote: As anyone who knows how to properly handle a gun will tell you, you never point it at something you're not willing to shoot. And you never shoot at someone unless you're prepared to kill them.


Maybe for military in a war scenario. You'd never get a civilian gun permit here. I'm allowed to shoot to injure but not to kill people in self-defense. Here, claiming that you can't shoot unless to kill means you're not fit to handle a gun and aren't allowed one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 84

Postby Nnelg » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:07 am

teratorn wrote:
Nnelg wrote: As anyone who knows how to properly handle a gun will tell you, you never point it at something you're not willing to shoot. And you never shoot at someone unless you're prepared to kill them.

Maybe for military in a war scenario. You'd never get a civilian gun permit here. I'm allowed to shoot to injure but not to kill people in self-defense. Here, claiming that you can't shoot unless to kill means you're not fit to handle a gun and aren't allowed one.

In which case I would forwards the notion that you could take a few more gun safety lessons. Because except for maybe the hand or foot there's nowhere 'safe' to shoot someone. Even bullet wounds in non-vital areas can easily cause the victim to bleed out in a manner of minutes.

Besides, not even highly trained military personnel can reliably aim at a specific body part. What you're allowed to do in self-defense is pure "kill or be killed". Sure, you'll try not to actually kill your attacker, but you can never be sure. If you think otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.

Now, Erfworld magic may be more or less wanton than real-world firearms, but the point I was trying to make is still valid regardless. They were pointing lethal weapons directly at him. That's more than just being wary, that's a direct threat.
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