Book 2 – Page 84

[Whispri]

Why does everyone keep talking about further decryption now that Wanda is in the magic kingdom? Parson's whole loophole was that since he's not a caster, convention doesn't keep him from going through one portal to another.

Well for one thing, Wanda's been ordered to stay alive at any price. In case of emergency, the Jetstone Portal is right there. And there's gettin' to be quite the build up of trouble right now.

...The decrypted can turn... ...Wanda needs to change...

Sorry for the snipping, but: Why? Ossomer pledged himself to darkness because he didn't like Parson's battleplan (nor Jack's alterations), not because of anything Wanda did to him.

...Spacerock's Garrison is almost completely captured anyway (tower down, dungeon and courtyard both more than 50% controlled by enemy troops), so it's incredibly likely that Prince Tremennis is going to order the evacuation anyway... ...They could all literally be in shackles at any moment if they stay...

Sorry for the snipping, but: Given that many of the Jetstone Unita still have move, I think the auto-chaining is unlikely to occur. It is, after all, their turn. Garrison Units though, they might be captured.

[Nnelg]

...Spacerock's Garrison is almost completely captured anyway (tower down, dungeon and courtyard both more than 50% controlled by enemy troops), so it's incredibly likely that Prince Tremennis is going to order the evacuation anyway... ...They could all literally be in shackles at any moment if they stay...

Sorry for the snipping, but: Given that many of the Jetstone Unita still have move, I think the auto-chaining is unlikely to occur. It is, after all, their turn. Garrison Units though, they might be captured.

This sort of thing has never happened on Erf before in living memory, so there's no telling what will happen. (My guess would be that even if all Jetstone units in the garrison croak, the garrison doesn't change hands until the start of GK's next turn.)

But I too doubt that Trem intends sticking around long enough to find out. Seeing as GK still has an army camped outside the walls of Spacerock, even dusting every last unit of GK's advance force would only buy the city one or two turn's reprieve. There's absolutely nothing to gain in sticking around any longer, so it's time for him to high-tail it out of there.

[Ytaker]

That's right. First off, it wasn't an emergency situation (as far as Parson knew) because the situation in Spacerock was well under control (the last time he checked).

If he believes the battle is going to stand and wait for him he's pretty stupid. I don't think he's that stupid though.

Second, the main reason Parson was trying to hurry was to escape notice of the casters, and obviously that plan had (at least partially) failed.

If the plan had partially failed, surely he should hurry even more till it fails more?

Finally, it is highly likely that Jojo, being a carnymancer, is an expert sweet-talker and knows how to reel in someone's attention, given the right bait (that Fate stuff). (Additionally, he might have used magic to supplement his persuasive power; but either way he probably didn't need to.)

You can't make people listen unless they want to listen. That's a common idea in magic. You push what is already there. His charisma may have helped, though Parson was just as happy to speak with Sizemore.

From what I've seen of your arguments, you're basically saying "He's not a saint, therefore he's a cold-hearted bastard."

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... GK_148.jpg

I am agree Parson when I say he is a cold hearted bastard, a monster. The ruthlessness has always been within him. Understandably, in his roleplay games he was probably happy throwing his pieces to die.

He is leaving his troops to die because he wants to personally be on the front line, and leaving them to die so he can chat with casters about getting his arse out of the field. I would define that as the behaviour of a cold hearted bastard. I view leaving your troops to die to chat about yourself as cold hearted, you may not.

If Parson wasn't a human being, and therefore fallible, I'd agree that your conclusions are the most logical explanations for his actions. But as it stands his actions can be explained by much, much less severe character flaws than a complete ambivalence for the lives or deaths of his troops.

I am sure he has some level of care for his troops. When I have played war games I often get attached to this piece or the other, and it may have some minor effect on whether they get to die. He hasn't changed much from the past though, from what I've seen. He is not just human, he is a gamer.

[Kyrt]

He is leaving his troops to die because he wants to personally be on the front line, and leaving them to die so he can chat with casters about getting his arse out of the field. I would define that as the behaviour of a cold hearted bastard. I view leaving your troops to die to chat about yourself as cold hearted, you may not.

No. He is chatting with casters for what appear to be very good reasons. Namely, he wants to live.

The MK is hostile to him and his own casters have warned him not to return as many there want to capture or croak him. He knows this and this is why he built the tunnel.

Parsons problem is that Charlie eavesdropped and arranged for Jojo to be there. That left Parson with a dilemma.

He was running through a tunnel followed by an unknown caster of possibly hostile intent and he wasn't going to outrun him. Should he continue on and hope said caster would simply bypass him? That seems foolhardy. Parson did the one thing he could....turn and confront him. He could do nothing else. So they chatted instead of fought....what was Parsons choice? Attack a caster of unknown power.

As for the portal....he was faced by many casters who had many ways to shut him down short of the portal. What else could he do?

[Nnelg]

That's right. First off, it wasn't an emergency situation (as far as Parson knew) because the situation in Spacerock was well under control (the last time he checked).

If he believes the battle is going to stand and wait for him he's pretty stupid. I don't think he's that stupid though.

To the contrary, it's quite reasonable to conclude the commanders in the field could surely handle a battle that's basically won already by themselves for at least five more minutes; wouldn't you agree?

Second, the main reason Parson was trying to hurry was to escape notice of the casters, and obviously that plan had (at least partially) failed.

If the plan had partially failed, surely he should hurry even more till it fails more?

Surely he should find out how badly it failed before digging the hole any deeper?

You can't make people listen unless they want to listen.

And that's the secret, isn't it? The trick isn't making people listen; it's making people want to listen. And Jojo had just the right lure up his sleeve...

From what I've seen of your arguments, you're basically saying "He's not a saint, therefore he's a cold-hearted bastard."

I am agree Parson when I say he is a cold hearted bastard, a monster. The ruthlessness has always been within him. Understandably, in his roleplay games he was probably happy throwing his pieces to die.

He is leaving his troops to die because he wants to personally be on the front line, and leaving them to die so he can chat with casters about getting his arse out of the field. I would define that as the behaviour of a cold hearted bastard. I view leaving your troops to die to chat about yourself as cold hearted, you may not.

No, I have no qualms with your definition of a "cold hearted bastard". Never the less, I disagree with your assessment of the situation. He is not "leaving his troops to die", because the last time he checked they were perfectly fine, and he had no reason to believe they would not continue to be so for a little while longer.

And if you keep on saying "he should have known", I'm going to take offense at it. Because in my eyes, you're putting the burden of omniscience on his shoulders.

If Parson wasn't a human being, and therefore fallible, I'd agree that your conclusions are the most logical explanations for his actions. But as it stands his actions can be explained by much, much less severe character flaws than a complete ambivalence for the lives or deaths of his troops.

I am sure he has some level of care for his troops. When I have played war games I often get attached to this piece or the other, and it may have some minor effect on whether they get to die. He hasn't changed much from the past though, from what I've seen. He is not just human, he is a gamer.

You know what I meant. (Or if not, then I may have given you too much credit.) Caring -actual caring- for his troops is NOT mutually exclusive with Parson's actions in the MK.

First, the troops were reasonably safe the last time he checked. Second, chatting to these casters has a good chance to yield valuable information that would directly make them safer. Third, Parson can be excused for dropping the ball (if he is indeed did such) this once, given that how he was personally shaken up by Jojo's sudden offer. Fourth, he reached the decision to stay with confidence and without deliberation. Finally, he easily put the matter aside and returned to the task at hand, showing where his true priorities lie.

[Whispri]

This sort of thing has never happened on Erf before in living memory, so there's no telling what will happen. (My guess would be that even if all Jetstone units in the garrison croak, the garrison doesn't change hands until the start of GK's next turn.)

But I too doubt that Trem intends sticking around long enough to find out. Seeing as GK still has an army camped outside the walls of Spacerock, even dusting every last unit of GK's advance force would only buy the city one or two turn's reprieve. There's absolutely nothing to gain in sticking around any longer, so it's time for him to high-tail it out of there.

If by 'this sort of thing' you mean the capture of a City on its own Turn, I very much doubt that, for all it takes is a weakly held City and a broken alliance. Regardless, they will, to all intents and purposes, be an attacking army at that point.

No such army exists. Ansom was carried off as a boop slave and the column destroyed, remember? If you mean the army of Haggar, they've already been defeated by Ansom and lost their Chief Warlord in the process. As for what's to be gained, there's the small matter of a Capital Site being at stake... and a large force of Dwagons to be destroyed or faced next turn in less advantageous circumstances.

[Ytaker]

To the contrary, it's quite reasonable to conclude the commanders in the field could surely handle a battle that's basically won already by themselves for at least five more minutes; wouldn't you agree?

Surely he should find out how badly it failed before digging the hole any deeper?

He didn't make any effort to find out how bad his cover was by asking him so that clearly was not a priority for him.

And that's the secret, isn't it? The trick isn't making people listen; it's making people want to listen. And Jojo had just the right lure up his sleeve...

No, I have no qualms with your definition of a "cold hearted bastard". Never the less, I disagree with your assessment of the situation. He is not "leaving his troops to die", because the last time he checked they were perfectly fine, and he had no reason to believe they would not continue to be so for a little while longer.

Ok, I'll accept that, it's possible that he had no idea they were having any troubles and assumed that they were fine.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/60/

But as he said, he was aware that units were dying in the field while they waited, so that is wrong, he was aware troops were dying and still delayed.

"Look, I've got units dying in the field right now."

I was aware you were unlikely to accept my argument. It's rather intuitive there would be problems, but not definite. So I looked through the comic and he does indeed say he is aware of those issues.

And if you keep on saying "he should have known", I'm going to take offense at it. Because in my eyes, you're putting the burden of omniscience on his shoulders.

Far from omniscience.

You know what I meant. (Or if not, then I may have given you too much credit.) Caring -actual caring- for his troops is NOT mutually exclusive with Parson's actions in the MK.

He can be any two of caring or intelligent or focused.

First, the troops were reasonably safe the last time he checked. Second, chatting to these casters has a good chance to yield valuable information that would directly make them safer. Third, Parson can be excused for dropping the ball (if he is indeed did such) this once, given that how he was personally shaken up by Jojo's sudden offer. Fourth, he reached the decision to stay with confidence and without deliberation. Finally, he easily put the matter aside and returned to the task at hand, showing where his true priorities lie.

He made no effort to gleam valuable information that would make them safer, such as how many people knew about him, whether there was any possibility of alliance. I can't see any effort to gleam information helpful to anyone but Parson, can you?

You can excuse Parson, certainly.

He showed every caster he could the scroll, he didn't reach the decision to stay with confidence and without deliberation. It's hardly certain he is still sure he won't use.

[Nnelg]

He didn't make any effort to find out how bad his cover was by asking him so that clearly was not a priority for him.

You don't need to ask direct questions to get information. In fact, unless you're the dominating party (like in an interrogation) it's just as likely to backfire. Engage in casual conversation, and your target's more likely to slip up and say something he shouldn't.

Ok, I'll accept that, it's possible that he had no idea they were having any troubles and assumed that they were fine.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/60/

But as he said, he was aware that units were dying in the field while they waited, so that is wrong, he was aware troops were dying and still delayed.

"Look, I've got units dying in the field right now."

I was aware you were unlikely to accept my argument. It's rather intuitive there would be problems, but not definite. So I looked through the comic and he does indeed say he is aware of those issues.

But at that point, he was using it as an excuse. Even if the battle was still fully under control, some of his units still would be dying, albiet at a slow rate. Parson was probably trying to imply it was at a faster rate than it actually was (as far as he knew) as an excuse to get Issac to stand aside.

And if you keep on saying "he should have known", I'm going to take offense at it. Because in my eyes, you're putting the burden of omniscience on his shoulders.

Far from omniscience.

Very well then, tell me how so. What sign did Parson have to indicate the impending catastrophe?

He can be any two of caring or intelligent or focused.

He can be all three of the above. None of those are binary variables, and you've forgotten one factor: the priority of imminent danger.

I would argue that Parson is definitely caring and intelligent, but that he also did not lose focus despite appearances. He did, after all, return is full attention to the original task at hand.

He showed every caster he could the scroll

He showed one caster; he wouldn't have even thought about showing Issac if he wasn't asked.


NOTE: More to say, but got to go.

[Ytaker]

But at that point, he was using it as an excuse. Even if the battle was still fully under control, some of his units still would be dying, albiet at a slow rate. Parson was probably trying to imply it was at a faster rate than it actually was (as far as he knew) as an excuse to get Issac to stand aside.

If you're going to assume Parson is lying or misleading others when it convenient for your argument with no evidence then there is little point in arguing further. Anything that happens could be a lie and nothing is certain except what you feel is right. I hope others are more convinced by my arguments.

[Nnelg]

But at that point, he was using it as an excuse. Even if the battle was still fully under control, some of his units still would be dying, albiet at a slow rate. Parson was probably trying to imply it was at a faster rate than it actually was (as far as he knew) as an excuse to get Issac to stand aside.

If you're going to assume Parson is lying or misleading others when it convenient for your argument with no evidence then there is little point in arguing further. Anything that happens could be a lie and nothing is certain except what you feel is right. I hope others are more convinced by my arguments.

No, that's not what I meant. It isn't a lie, or even misleading. The difference lies in how long the proposed delay is. He can talk for a few minutes with Jojo and Sizemore, but not for a few hours if not days with Issac. Besides, any margin for error Parson worked into his plans would have been mostly spent at this point; a minute lost now is not the same as a minute lost before.


Now, what got cut off before:

He made no effort to gleam valuable information that would make them safer, such as how many people knew about him, whether there was any possibility of alliance. I can't see any effort to gleam information helpful to anyone but Parson, can you?

If you could see it, then so could Jojo, and if he turned out to be Parson's enemy (which he might actually be) then he would have hidden that information merely because Parson wanted to know it. Just keep him talking, and eventually he'll tell you everything he's willing to let you know -and probably a bit more.

[Housellama]

Gah, seriously people? You're criticizing Parson for not acting strategically? So far, nowhere in this entire mess has Parson made a decision that wasn't in the best interest of GK. I'd even go so far as to say that nothing in this mess has been Parson's fault and has happened due to either events completely outside of his control, or a result of GK forces specifically not following his plans. Since Wanda disobeyed, he's been playing one of the best games of Xanatos Speed Chess I've ever seen.

Parson's plan in the beginning was a quick-kill. Everything he's done since then has been damage control when Wanda went off the reservation and GK got spanked by Kingworld, which is something not even Parson could see coming. When his first plan failed, he immediately implemented a backup plan that was very rapidly turning a defeat back into a victory. He chose to go through the portal for two reasons: one emotional, one strategic. They got into this mess because Wanda went rogue. That happened before he was Chief Warlord. It also happened because Parson had imperfect information. He didn't know what was going on until it was too late. If he's in the hex, he will have perfect information, and as CW, no one will be capable of disobeying.

His plan to go to the MK was specifically designed to avoid confrontation and to cross and be gone as quickly as possible. He couldn't have foreseen Marie and Janis, he couldn't have foreseen Jojo and he really couldn't have foreseen TGMTTA with the information he had. The decision to stop for Jojo was at first survival, and then the potential to go home. (That one might not have been for GK, but I cannot blame Parson for stopping for self preservation). Every action since then has been Parson dealing with the as previously stated unforeseen obstacles that appeared while trying to get through the gate as quickly as possible.

I can't find fault with a single decision Parson made with the information he had when he made it. I'm even hard pressed to find a better option.

[Whispri]

What is it you're trying to blame Wanda for exactly? If you mean leaving Ansom behind, that worked out pretty well, it took Faq and Haggar out of the Battle. If you mean faiing to Predict Kingsworld, Parson's bracers didn't, so... If you mean offering Jillian quarter, well without fore knowledge of one of Charlie's secret weapons, where was the harm in it? And given that he was her advisor at that point, rather than her boss, how could she 'go rogue' in the first place?

[Housellama]

What is it you're trying to blame Wanda for exactly? If you mean leaving Ansom behind, that worked out pretty well, it took Faq and Haggar out of the Battle. If you mean faiing to Predict Kingsworld, Parson's bracers didn't, so... If you mean offering Jillian quarter, well without fore knowledge of one of Charlie's secret weapons, where was the harm in it? And given that he was her advisor at that point, rather than her boss, how could she 'go rogue' in the first place?

Nobody could predict Kingworld. It was the dealing with Jillian that was where she broke ranks. Every decision she's made in regards to Jillian that we have seen has been a bad one. Especially when she's making Jillian choose. If she had rolled in under veil and smacked down Jillian exactly as Ossomer suggests here, not only would FAQ be gone, there's a very good chance that the admittedly unpredictable Kingworld wouldn't have gone off as a result since it was triggered by Jillian directly after her conversation with Wanda.

Wanda choose to deviate from Parson's plan of "Burn the city". She made a bad decision based on emotion and narcissism and GK got smacked down for it. She ignored the warnings from Parson, Ossomer and ignored her most recent interactions with Jillian and acted on blind arrogance. That's where the trouble started.

[Nnelg]

Nobody could predict Kingworld. It was the dealing with Jillian that was where she broke ranks. Every decision she's made in regards to Jillian that we have seen has been a bad one. Especially when she's making Jillian choose. If she had rolled in under veil and smacked down Jillian exactly as Ossomer suggests here, not only would FAQ be gone, there's a very good chance that the admittedly unpredictable Kingworld wouldn't have gone off as a result since it was triggered by Jillian directly after her conversation with Wanda.

Wanda choose to deviate from Parson's plan of "Burn the city". She made a bad decision based on emotion and narcissism and GK got smacked down for it. She ignored the warnings from Parson, Ossomer and ignored her most recent interactions with Jillian and acted on blind arrogance. That's where the trouble started.

Well, talking to Jillian wasn't completely unsound from a tactical point of view. If not for Kingworld, it very well may have gotten Faq to abandon Spacerock without a fight, possibly even switch allegiances. And again, if not for Kingworld the consequences for failing to do so would have been slim; Wanda could have easily pulled back a hex or two (far out of LOS) and then tried the veil thing.

But never the less, I agree with the remainder of your message.

[Kyrt]

No, that's not what I meant. It isn't a lie, or even misleading. The difference lies in how long the proposed delay is. He can talk for a few minutes with Jojo and Sizemore, but not for a few hours if not days with Issac. Besides, any margin for error Parson worked into his plans would have been mostly spent at this point; a minute lost now is not the same as a minute lost before.

You write as if Parson has a choice . He doesn't.

He couldn't ignore Jojo in the tunnel. He HAD to confront him.
He is not likely to get past tGMtTA - so he talked rather than force a situation where he would be croaked.

Except for deciding when he has had enough and MUST force the issue by trying to enter the Portal and hope he isn't defeated/croaked/captured as a result, he doesn't have a choice. Persuading Isaac and co to let him through was his best option. His ONLY option with any decent chance of success. Now that others have arrived, some friendly, some not the situation has changed.

[Sieggy]

A few things . . . first, am I right in assuming that the GK forces are trapped in the garrison area until end of turn / next day? If so, Slately and his Merrie Bande can beat feet (or jetpacks or wings or whatever) and get the hell out of there to safety (or at least whatever move some of them have left). Also, it relieves some of the pressure on Parson; if he orders prisoners to be taken so that the garrison does not 'officially' fall, and the portal remains open, he has breathing room.

Regarding the KingWorld spell, did it END GKs turn, or did it SWITCH the rotation? When Jetstone's turn ends, does night fall, or does GK then get it's interrupted turn back (which might be one of those brakes on the power of KingWorld, that while the casting side gets to disrupt their opponents turn, said opponents also get a chance to respond).

And also, does a decrypted Ruler remain ruler? Can a duplicated Ruler actually designate an Heir? Even assuming Trem gets designated Heir by DoppelSlately, and at the end of the turn DoppelSlately vanishes, if Wanda can Decrypt the croaked Slately before the next dawn (when corpses vanish), does Trem still become Ruler? Or was Trem ever actually Heir to begin with?

Assuming Wanda gets to Slately the Snuffed before turns end and decrypts him, it then raises the question of whether or not all JS units then switch allegiance to Wanda (through Slately) including Trem. As bad as it would be to be decrypted, to have your loyalty switched because your Ruler was decrypted would even be worse . . . Imagine his reaction upon discovering that the father who saved him is a copy and going to / has vanished, only to discover that your REAL father has been raised from the dead by the Witch-Queen and your loyalty to him compels you to serve her . . . serious loyalty / morale minuses.

[drachefly]

I don't think prisoners would suffice to keep the portal open. If they kept some uncaptured, holding out, that would do it.

[Salem]

You can't make people listen unless they want to listen. That's a common idea in magic. You push what is already there. His charisma may have helped, though Parson was just as happy to speak with Sizemore.

I do think that there were tactical reasons to ask Sizemore about the scroll. I think Parson had decided to stay, but knowing about the scroll's effect, tells him about Jojo's honesty. Knowing if Jojo was lying is powerful, knowing that the scroll was "eliminate Parson at all costs" very powerful. Few people know Parson is that important, then you just trace Jojo to the people who do. Which is a list that includes Charlie. Which changes how he interacts with Charlie, he has to work harder at keeping things "win winish" for Charlie or "Lose lose" so he stays away.

I don't think Parson ever intended to be a major factor in the battle at Spacerock as his original plans had it falling fast, I think his goal was to be present at future battles.

[Housellama]

Wanda choose to deviate from Parson's plan of "Burn the city". She made a bad decision based on emotion and narcissism and GK got smacked down for it. She ignored the warnings from Parson, Ossomer and ignored her most recent interactions with Jillian and acted on blind arrogance. That's where the trouble started.

Well, talking to Jillian wasn't completely unsound from a tactical point of view. If not for Kingworld, it very well may have gotten Faq to abandon Spacerock without a fight, possibly even switch allegiances. And again, if not for Kingworld the consequences for failing to do so would have been slim; Wanda could have easily pulled back a hex or two (far out of LOS) and then tried the veil thing.

But never the less, I agree with the remainder of your message.

I realize that, as readers, we have hindsight and more perfect information. I also realize that Wanda has a lot of strong emotions regarding Jillian. That doesn't make it any less of a choice, and that choice any less of a mistake. Yes, there's the possibility that FAQ may turn, or that they would abandon the battle. However, talking to Jillian provides an emotionally charged environment in which she has already been shown to make bad choices, and that she had been warned against by two very capable Warlords. Decapitating FAQ immediately not only still removes them from the battle, but also removes an entire Side, a very troublesome one even without Kingworld, to boot without creating an environment primed for mistake-making.

The potential gain of talking to Jillian was far outweighed by the potential loss, and even at that time it was clear. Talking to Jillian was a bad tactical decision. The reasons she gave were simply justification for a choice she wanted to make no matter what the situation dictated.

[Nnelg]

I realize that, as readers, we have hindsight and more perfect information. I also realize that Wanda has a lot of strong emotions regarding Jillian. That doesn't make it any less of a choice, and that choice any less of a mistake. Yes, there's the possibility that FAQ may turn, or that they would abandon the battle. However, talking to Jillian provides an emotionally charged environment in which she has already been shown to make bad choices, and that she had been warned against by two very capable Warlords. Decapitating FAQ immediately not only still removes them from the battle, but also removes an entire Side, a very troublesome one even without Kingworld, to boot without creating an environment primed for mistake-making.

The potential gain of talking to Jillian was far outweighed by the potential loss, and even at that time it was clear. Talking to Jillian was a bad tactical decision. The reasons she gave were simply justification for a choice she wanted to make no matter what the situation dictated.

Very well, you have convinced me, she could have made a better choice.

If not for Kingworld, though, in the scheme of things it would not have made much of a difference. And it wasn't "going rouge" from Parson's point of view, either. Even if she was subordinate to him at the time, she had command of the operation. That means that how she gets it done is up to her. She may not have made the best choice, but it isn't "going rouge" until she starts acting directly contrary to her assigned duty.

He is not likely to get past tGMtTA - so he talked rather than force a situation where he would be croaked.

Well, that doesn't apply when he was talking to Jojo, though.