Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Guppy » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:18 pm

Whispri wrote:This is how Jillian ends up after Faq's fall, alone with her Gwiffons. Funny that.

And presumably in the meanwhile, Faq falls to Stanley (maybe not immediately, it's possible Jillian will spend the next few turns fleeing from real or imagined Haffaton trackers), at which point she assumes her mistake is the cause of her kingdom's downfall.

At which point we see the what Fate had originally planned (Wanda and Jillian on the same side), totally screwed up because they chose to fight their destinies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:02 pm

Whispri wrote:For a start the destruction of the City wasn't preordained in the case of its capture, that was just bad luck from Haffaton's point of view. It's not a great loss thanks to the diminishing returns thing. For that matter they may have magical means of easing the replacement cost.

Moreover, if less valuable prey had taken the city, the mannequin could have been used to threaten them that they would be hunted down *if* they razed they city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Beeskee » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:46 pm

The only units in the city were uncroaked, which presumably don't eat, and plants, which presumably don't eat, so Haffaton can just leave fake trapped 'empty' cities like that with poisoned provisions, and let all their speaking units know that any city without garrison units that eat will have a trapped batch of provisions in their storeroom.

The plants and uncroaked were weak compared to Jillian and her group, but I am guessing they are more than enough to handle the average roaming barbarian group, wild animal, or whatever the city might normally face as a threat behind it's borders*. If the garrison uncroaked units and trap garden are not sufficient, the invaders are hit by the poison food trap. If they manage to avoid that, which is a big IF since provisions lower a unit's upkeep, Haffaton still knows which city was hit by the next turn.

* Wild barbarians, creatures such as dwagons, and also things such as magic items/artifacts do pop in the wild or at ruin sites, though the story is leaving most of that out for story purposes, from what I understand, so it doesn't appear to be a boop-pull if some random barbarians or a powerful magic item suddenly pops in a convenient place. But presumably a city behind your front lines is still vulnerable to some form of attack, even if you have all your enemies held at bay.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby junovalkyrie » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:04 am

Guppy wrote:
Whispri wrote:This is how Jillian ends up after Faq's fall, alone with her Gwiffons. Funny that.

And presumably in the meanwhile, Faq falls to Stanley (maybe not immediately, it's possible Jillian will spend the next few turns fleeing from real or imagined Haffaton trackers), at which point she assumes her mistake is the cause of her kingdom's downfall.


There was an update in Book 2 in which Jack reminisced about a time he and Wanda both awaited Jillian's return to Faq, and a panel or two from Book 1 show Wanda as an Faq unit (one shows her or someone who looks like her among a circle of Faq casters, and the other shows Marie Predicting her attunement), so I suspect it'll still be a good while before Faq falls.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Biostar » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:08 am

Guppy wrote:
Whispri wrote:This is how Jillian ends up after Faq's fall, alone with her Gwiffons. Funny that.

And presumably in the meanwhile, Faq falls to Stanley (maybe not immediately, it's possible Jillian will spend the next few turns fleeing from real or imagined Haffaton trackers), at which point she assumes her mistake is the cause of her kingdom's downfall.

You do know that's not until after Wanda joins Faq, right? She spends some time there before recieving the prediction from Marie and sending a thinkagram to Stanley.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Lamech » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:21 am

Beeskee wrote:The only units in the city were uncroaked, which presumably don't eat, and plants, which presumably don't eat, so Haffaton can just leave fake trapped 'empty' cities like that with poisoned provisions, and let all their speaking units know that any city without garrison units that eat will have a trapped batch of provisions in their storeroom.

The plants and uncroaked were weak compared to Jillian and her group, but I am guessing they are more than enough to handle the average roaming barbarian group, wild animal, or whatever the city might normally face as a threat behind it's borders*. If the garrison uncroaked units and trap garden are not sufficient, the invaders are hit by the poison food trap. If they manage to avoid that, which is a big IF since provisions lower a unit's upkeep, Haffaton still knows which city was hit by the next turn.

* Wild barbarians, creatures such as dwagons, and also things such as magic items/artifacts do pop in the wild or at ruin sites, though the story is leaving most of that out for story purposes, from what I understand, so it doesn't appear to be a boop-pull if some random barbarians or a powerful magic item suddenly pops in a convenient place. But presumably a city behind your front lines is still vulnerable to some form of attack, even if you have all your enemies held at bay.

I'm guessing they watch ruins and keep them harvested, hunting down the heavies that spawn and taking the magic items that pop. Both because heavies are good rations, and because groups of heavies could probably do decent damage to a city. (And you can never have too many artifacts.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby effataigus » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:11 am

If a side is too large to hold with traditional units...
and if that side is instead upheld by uncroaked and plants...
and if that side's croakamancer were to be captured (as we have reason to suspect Wanda will be)...
then it shouldn't take long for that side to fall, or to greatly shrink at the least.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby BrotherRool » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:36 pm

Whispri wrote:
BrotherRool wrote:What I don't like about this plan is that it requires Haffaton to let the side raize the city. It doesn't seem worth while unless they've got a ridiculous amount of cities they can afford to lose. If a really small force took their city, what can they get in return which is worth the loss?

For a start the destruction of the City wasn't preordained in the case of its capture, that was just bad luck from Haffaton's point of view. It's not a great loss thanks to the diminishing returns thing. For that matter they may have magical means of easing the replacement cost.

As for what they've gained, well they've gained the defeat of an army. The only striking force of a neighbouring, warlike and hostile Capital Side has gone, or is about to go, the way of the Auroch. They've gained casus belli against that Side if it matters to them. Potentially they've gained three Uncroaked Warlords plus a small body of infantry to replace Diecast's garrison. On top of that, they've gained a lead on a bubble Side that lurks within their Domain, if Jillian goes in the bag, they'll have a source of information on that Side, possibly maps as well. One last thing, if they capture all or part of the WRECD, they'll have a chance to Turn them, which would be catastrophic for Faq (mounts excepting). They have a Capital Side on the ropes for the price of one small City.


Most of that is reasonable stuff that I hadn't thought of (particularly that they might not particularly care about the city) but some of that is relying on it being a large invading force, because other wise they're much more likely to raize it than not. I was thinking if medium sized scouting/skirmish parties had been sent out, well then you haven't destroyed their main force, you haven't captured anything much of worth.

I never meant it wasn't worth while in this case, it clearly is, but I was thinking of if a party smaller and less important than Jillians did it, they were lucky to have 3 warlords and flying mounts here, I imagine there's normally a lot less vital things, unless it's a full out invasion. I mean especially with FAQ being a close by capital site. If they'd used predictamancy to arrange it specifically to trap Jillian's army, heck yeah it was worth it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Nnelg » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:39 pm

You know, I don't think Haffaton wanted the city to be sacked per se, but they probably expected that to be its fate should it fall into enemy hands. And now that it's been razed, somehow I doubt Haffaton will take the trouble to rebuild it. After all, they've got so much more.



OneHugeTuck wrote:2. Common knowledge that rations can be poisoned and everybody poisoning their rations all the time, are two different things entirely. That was your absolute, not mine.

I was being facetious, for which I apologize.

The absolute I was referring to was your conclusion "NO ONE WOULD EAT RATIONS FROM A LOSING SIDE". Because if nobody ate captured rations, then people would stop bothering to poison them, because it wouldn't matter anyways. And as soon as people started figuring that out, they'd start eating them again. Besides, there are other factors you're ignoring; like that many would consider it dishonorable, and others would lack the means to poison food. Still more would simply not think of the possibility, even if they know food can be poisoned. What you'd end up with is some people poisoning, some not, some suspicious, some unwary.


OneHugeTuck wrote:3. In Viet Nam, both sides at left poisoned rations laying around, hoping to snare the hungry/unaware. It happens, and Viet Nam wasn't the only instance in history when it happened, not even close. It's not hugely outside the box thinking.

Vietnam was an outside-the-box war. Such instances of rampant poisoning are the minority, by far. Even more so on Erf, where one of the primary requirements for guerrilla warfare, decentralization, is impossible to achieve.


OneHugeTuck wrote:Question: Do unmanned cities pop rations? If there's a storeroom but no new ration popping, poisoning the storeroom would be an easy thing (new rations pop for the units if/when they return).

Poisoning food is never an easy thing. You don't find poisonous substances lying around, especially if you don't want it to smell or taste funny. And without any expertise, it's hit or miss if it actually works at all.

So it takes some effort and organization to make poisoned provisions actually pay off. Whereas, say, simply destroying them takes ten seconds for one man with incendiaries. Which is why such has historically been what's normally done.



rackhir wrote:I think this "scare them into a straight line" argument is a bit of a stretch. Haffaton's hope was probably that they would eat the poisoned rations before they leave and pass out in the city instead of somewhere else.
Housellama wrote:The Doll, I suspect, was activated as a result of Lookamancy or something similar. "Our city fell, wtb? Let's take a look. Oh, there they are. Let's boop with them..." Again, a spell preloaded into the Doll that simply needed to be triggered could be easily set up beforehand and set off remotely.

I agree, the poison was probably the original plan. Scaring them was just a bonus.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Housellama » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:06 pm

Nnelg wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:3. In Viet Nam, both sides at left poisoned rations laying around, hoping to snare the hungry/unaware. It happens, and Viet Nam wasn't the only instance in history when it happened, not even close. It's not hugely outside the box thinking.

Vietnam was an outside-the-box war. Such instances of rampant poisoning are the minority, by far. Even more so on Erf, where one of the primary requirements for guerrilla warfare, decentralization, is impossible to achieve.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Question: Do unmanned cities pop rations? If there's a storeroom but no new ration popping, poisoning the storeroom would be an easy thing (new rations pop for the units if/when they return).

Poisoning food is never an easy thing. You don't find poisonous substances lying around, especially if you don't want it to smell or taste funny. And without any expertise, it's hit or miss if it actually works at all.

So it takes some effort and organization to make poisoned provisions actually pay off. Whereas, say, simply destroying them takes ten seconds for one man with incendiaries. Which is why such has historically been what's normally done.


Corollary: Trapping food is iffy. Food spoils. On Stupidworld, it has to be done quickly enough that the rations are still usable. If you really want to screw with someone, trap munitions and materiel. That recovered RPG that you're planning on using to take out the tanks? Rigged to blow up when fired. Ammo that causes the weapon to jam. Grenades with a trick pin. Radios that contain explosives. All sorts of nasty little surprises.

Not sure that has a parallel in Erf. Maybe something Ace could whip up?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Lamech » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:13 pm

Housellama wrote:
Nnelg wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:3. In Viet Nam, both sides at left poisoned rations laying around, hoping to snare the hungry/unaware. It happens, and Viet Nam wasn't the only instance in history when it happened, not even close. It's not hugely outside the box thinking.

Vietnam was an outside-the-box war. Such instances of rampant poisoning are the minority, by far. Even more so on Erf, where one of the primary requirements for guerrilla warfare, decentralization, is impossible to achieve.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Question: Do unmanned cities pop rations? If there's a storeroom but no new ration popping, poisoning the storeroom would be an easy thing (new rations pop for the units if/when they return).

Poisoning food is never an easy thing. You don't find poisonous substances lying around, especially if you don't want it to smell or taste funny. And without any expertise, it's hit or miss if it actually works at all.

So it takes some effort and organization to make poisoned provisions actually pay off. Whereas, say, simply destroying them takes ten seconds for one man with incendiaries. Which is why such has historically been what's normally done.


Corollary: Trapping food is iffy. Food spoils. On Stupidworld, it has to be done quickly enough that the rations are still usable. If you really want to screw with someone, trap munitions and materiel. That recovered RPG that you're planning on using to take out the tanks? Rigged to blow up when fired. Ammo that causes the weapon to jam. Grenades with a trick pin. Radios that contain explosives. All sorts of nasty little surprises.

Not sure that has a parallel in Erf. Maybe something Ace could whip up?
Probably. He even had rockets or grenades I think. Just have them explode when fired with no delay. Also just thought of something: Active grenade through a hat. Would stop hats from being used.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:26 pm

At least, you'd have to be pretty careful about their use.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby junovalkyrie » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:43 pm

Just looked at the image again; boy, that doorway sure is in for a beating! :mrgreen:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Kyrt » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:43 am

Whispri wrote:This is how Jillian ends up after Faq's fall, alone with her Gwiffons. Funny that.


Well....no. FAQs fall still appears to be some time in the future.

GK, for example, is only a couple of turns flight from FAQ....which appears to put it in the middle of territory controlled by Haffaton. And Stanley isn't the first ruler of the side.

Also, FAQ fell at a time when Wanda belonged to that side. She spent some time there, then betrayed it to Stanley.

So....before Faq falls....Wanda has to be captured, Haffaton has to fall, GK has to form and grow (Stanley was a very successful piker) and Wanda has to betray Faq to Stanley.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:05 am

junovalkyrie wrote:Just looked at the image again; boy, that doorway sure is in for a beating! :mrgreen:


I'm more worried about the ceiling.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Infidel » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:21 am

Atnas wrote:Weird really, how that simple line of text scared the crap out of me.


I find it wierd how people are wierded out by different lines of text. So which one is it you are referring to? The last line, or "“You won’t get out alive,” it said, with the force of a curse" ?

Because, I for one i'm pretty wierded out when a maniquin starts speaking threats to me. I'd go all Jillian on it too.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby effataigus » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:03 am

Was the repeated sentence lead-in intended?:

For what it might be worth at this point, they did not spot any Haffaton units on the way. For what it might be worth at this point, they found a dark, sheltered cave in a hex of pouring rain to hide in.


I could see it as a literary device, but the two sentences are not related enough to link in this manner IMO.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:06 am

I think it just communicates Jillian's hopeless feeling. She knows that she's been caught, and despite signs that she would normally take as positive, she still knows that she's on the run and feels that any "good news" is just pennies in the bucket compared to the bad news.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby Mathamancer » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:10 am

It was the apples!

As in Snow White's Poison Apple.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 038

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:00 pm

0beron wrote:I think it just communicates Jillian's hopeless feeling. She knows that she's been caught, and despite signs that she would normally take as positive, she still knows that she's on the run and feels that any "good news" is just pennies in the bucket compared to the bad news.


For that, I'd have used an 'and', and italicized the second 'it'.
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