Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:46 pm

zilfallon]Radar, sonar and radio were important but if you say that they were as effective as the power of updating your battlefield awareness INSTANTLY, you're wrong.[/quote]

Uhm... I don't think I did. Turn off your pre-judge filter and go back and read it again. What I posted was in support of the quote.

[quote="Nnelg wrote:
The table's more like giving every soldier his own dedicated telecommunications/spy satellite, and linking them all together in a single room.


No, definitely not true. Only those at the Capital City could see the layout. Soldiers in the field were still restricted to only the limited communications received from the Linked Thinkamancer, so only those she could afford the juice to speak to got a report, and that was a restricted report. It was better Intelligence than any other Side got, but certainly not on the scale you're proposing.

During the link up, it cost you the counsel of three independent casters in favour of one that you were not to consult for opinions. You saw more, but had fewer ideas of how to deal with it, amplifying the weakness of GK leadership. Coupled with a genius leader, yes, the table could be extremely powerful. Coupled with poor leadershhip, you were exposing the weakness of the Side with a fancy toy they could not adequatey exploit.

drachefly wrote:And the top Japanese admiral.


True, too.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Goshen » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:59 pm

wrecan wrote:I wonder if it's possible that Charlie got the idea of Kingworld from Parson's musings on the nature of relative time.

IMHO, It's more likely that Kingworld is a Turnamancy spell which requires a tremendous amount of power. I think Jillian's relatively low-level turnamancer was able to cast it because she was linked to Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Lamech » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:04 pm

Goshen wrote:
wrecan wrote:I wonder if it's possible that Charlie got the idea of Kingworld from Parson's musings on the nature of relative time.

IMHO, It's more likely that Kingworld is a Turnamancy spell which requires a tremendous amount of power. I think Jillian's relatively low-level turnamancer was able to cast it because she was linked to Charlie.

I suspect that it was just a fairly normal spell that comes from a link up. Either super turnamancy, or more likely super turnamancy/carnymancy. I suppose Charlie may have gotten an idea from browsing Parson's notes, but it probably came more from figuring out how to apply the casters he had who were willing to go to bat for him.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Oberon » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:06 pm

drachefly wrote:[...] keeping the readers informed in advance is an A+ thing.
I agree with this 100%, but I also feel that the author and artist are free to spend their time as they please. There's a balance to be struck, we the readers don't have the right to an update even if it was promised. On the other hand, we the readers don't need to continue being readers if we feel that the author and artist jerk us around too much.

For the record, I'm pretty much of the opinion that a free web comic is a good thing, and that it's up to me to decide whether it's worth my time to stop back by to see if it's been updated. There have been a few web comics I've abandoned due to crossing my "inordinate time between updates" line, but in no case do I feel that I have the right to gripe about it.

And also:

Now we know that they were
( •_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
Headed to Gencon
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby atalex » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:19 pm

To me, the thing that is most interesting about this update is actually the thing that isn't in it. What was Parson's thought that was so personal that he didn't actually write it down? Because he started talking about some matter so personal that he didn't want to commit it to any format where there was a possibility of Charlie seeing it ... and then, after Maggie indicated that Eyebook security was not perfect, he never did write it down at all! Hmm.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:43 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Nnelg wrote:The table's more like giving every soldier his own dedicated telecommunications/spy satellite, and linking them all together in a single room.


No, definitely not true. Only those at the Capital City could see the layout. Soldiers in the field were still restricted to only the limited communications received from the Linked Thinkamancer, so only those she could afford the juice to speak to got a report, and that was a restricted report. It was better Intelligence than any other Side got, but certainly not on the scale you're proposing.

Oh yes you would need that much infrastructure to replicate such a feat in real life. Perhaps the term "dedicated" was a bit misleading, however. I meant more that the number of satellites needed would rival the number of soldiers fielded, not that said soldiers would have satellites at their beck and call.

Just do the math. If one spy satellite can cover a square kilometer of land, (which is a stretch) and an average battlefield is a square 10km a side, (which might be a little on the small side) then you'd need 100 spy satellites in the air at any given time. But you'd need even more than that, because they'll orbit out of position after a while. If each satellite has 4 hours of good coverage, you'd need 600 satellites to ensure coverage 24/7.


Kreistor wrote:During the link up, it cost you the counsel of three independent casters in favour of one that you were not to consult for opinions. You saw more, but had fewer ideas of how to deal with it, amplifying the weakness of GK leadership. Coupled with a genius leader, yes, the table could be extremely powerful. Coupled with poor leadershhip, you were exposing the weakness of the Side with a fancy toy they could not adequatey exploit.

Well, you make a good point about ingenuity.

One other benefit I saw in the table was removing some of the "experience factor". One of the trickiest things to learn is how to deal with uncertainty, which the table removes.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby effataigus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:51 pm

Oberon wrote:
drachefly wrote:[...] keeping the readers informed in advance is an A+ thing.
I agree with this 100%, but I also feel that the author and artist are free to spend their time as they please. There's a balance to be struck, we the readers don't have the right to an update even if it was promised. On the other hand, we the readers don't need to continue being readers if we feel that the author and artist jerk us around too much.

For the record, I'm pretty much of the opinion that a free web comic is a good thing, and that it's up to me to decide whether it's worth my time to stop back by to see if it's been updated. There have been a few web comics I've abandoned due to crossing my "inordinate time between updates" line, but in no case do I feel that I have the right to gripe about it.


1. *inserts obligatory counter to the "if you don't like then then don't eat it" post*: (... communication is a two-way street... feedback is helpful... who are you to tell me what I can and can't say... blah blah blah.)

2. *waits for impassioned counter, but doesn't really read it*

3. *snidely rehashes original arguments, but with more polarized language*

4. *waits for response with escalated dialogue*

5. --> return to (3.) until next update.


There... that should save us all some time.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Aquillion » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:35 pm

The problem with evaluating the table-trimancer setup is that we don't know what Misty was capable of on her own, so we don't have anything to compare it to.

However, I'd tend to say that it was a waste of Jack's capabilities. They were still getting Maggie and Misty's benefits, but Jack is overwhelmingly competent at what he does and wasn't able to contribute at all except as a battery.

More to the point, as others have said: Prior to Parson, nobody in Gobwin Knob was a good enough strategist to use the information from the table properly. So no matter how good it was in theory, it was a waste in practice. Even once Parson arrived, he was able to accomplish more with Maggie available to arrange however he pleased than with her bound up in the table (and he probably could have done even more if he'd had Jack available as an individual right from the start.)

I'm inclined to say that however limited Misty was on her own (and however useful the Eyebooks are), it was probably enough, in the hands of a competent strategist, to be worth keeping Jack available for his own stuff.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:12 am

Well Jack was a bit more than a battery, his job in the link was to project the info onto the table. Actually it's hard to tell overall which was better. Parson did get some good mileage out the old buffed table.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Werebiscuit » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:57 am

the_tick_rules wrote:Well Jack was a bit more than a battery, his job in the link was to project the info onto the table. Actually it's hard to tell overall which was better. Parson did get some good mileage out the old buffed table.


Yep. To use the spy satellite analogy. Having a satellite on its own is no good. You need a comms link and interactive graphical display for really good data transfer.
Misty on her own provided all 3 to some degree but the difference would be like the difference between operating an early radar setup where the operator (Misty) has to interpret various spikes and waves and relay their meaning to the commander (Parson). Meaning that much info that Parson might consider important isn't relayed because Misty doesn't consider it as important ( Fog -of-war) And having the table where the commander can see all details at hand and can have minor details influence his strategy & tactics. if all 3 are linked the data transfer is all pervasive. On their own they are just not as effective
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Smoker » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:36 am

On this point: Are we considering if the table alone was worth allocating three casters to, or if the linkup was worth it?

For me, if I could suspend the ethics involved, I'd link em in a heart beat and have em churning out magic items as often as possible - imagine the sorts of lookamancy and foolamancy items you could produce for your scouts and warlords? Just look at how buffed Slately is, with one turns worth of juice from one caster...

Aside from items, of course, there's also spells... If a link can cast Kingworld, uncroak the volcano, or summon the perfect warlord.. what kind of game-altering mass-foolamancy could Jack produce? I imagine whole hex's being duped into attacking themselves before they even reach GK...

That is, if I could suspend the ethics. In actual fact I'd probably find the whole thing way to creepy to go near.

Regardless of that, though, its kinda fun to think up items and spells, given the range of power we've seen in past linkups...
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:06 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Well Jack was a bit more than a battery, his job in the link was to project the info onto the table. Actually it's hard to tell overall which was better. Parson did get some good mileage out the old buffed table.

The eyebooks needed him, the data output needed him, he may have provided passive anti-foolamancy, and he may have provided some other sort of help. (In addition to extra juice, maybe his high level helped, or the part of foolamancy that comes from seeing what is really there helped Misty get a clear view of things that would normally have been to far away.)
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby multilis » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:53 pm

The Truth About Parson

"I wanted to write something personal. Something I did not want Charlie reading."

What was that?

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F015.jpg

"I said Not to mention unspeakable"

Another reference to keeping secret/not speaking or allowing others to read. Why?

Notice the context:

In a desperate final struggle for survival...

a) between all that is noble [royal] and decent...

and

b) and all that is vile and unholy, not to mention unspeakable.


Parson is a "powergamer", obsessed with gaining power rather than fighting for a noble royal cause. Killing others is a "game" for him. He has sold himself to the demons for their promises of power, and now he helps them with dark evil perverted ideas and incantations.

So obviously Parson once again now wants to write about "all that is vile and unholy". Perhaps it is just ways to torture others and/or turn them into undead abominations or to brainwash a hapless ruler like his evil minions Wanda and Maggie. Or perhaps it is some more sinister blasphemy such as dirty "Titan porn", or slandering the righteous cause of the Royals.

Whatever it is, it is vile and unholy. That is why Parson is untrustable, we need to get rid of him, banish the demon spawn back from to his demon world. Before it is too late. Before he turns the magic kingdom and all of erfworld into death and destruction and a lurking place of demon spawn where no royal goodness is left.

Thank-you.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Smoker wrote:Aside from items, of course, there's also spells... If a link can cast Kingworld, uncroak the volcano, or summon the perfect warlord.. what kind of game-altering mass-foolamancy could Jack produce? I imagine whole hex's being duped into attacking themselves before they even reach GK...

Foolamancy+signamancy. Signamancy is about showing things as they are. Foolamancy is about making fake images. I'm thinking, the illusions are now real. Someone is veiled as a cloud? Your arrows go through them. Those diversion beasts? You figured out they were fake? Oh, look now they are tearing your guts out. Jack casts mirror image on the army? You try to figure out what is real? ALL OF THEM
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby multilis » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:27 pm

Lamech wrote:Foolamancy+signamancy. Signamancy is about showing things as they are. Foolamancy is about making fake images. I'm thinking, the illusions are now real. Someone is veiled as a cloud? Your arrows go through them. Those diversion beasts? You figured out they were fake? Oh, look now they are tearing your guts out. Jack casts mirror image on the army? You try to figure out what is real? ALL OF THEM

That sound to me like Carnymancy, Weirdomancy and Retconjuration.

Signomancer all we know is "nicest looking capitals" so far and natural signomancy seems to have affect on moral. Foolomancy+signomancy might be able to make a good ruler look bad or a servant look good as a way of causing revolt/civil war/betrayal, etc to destroy a kingdom from within or makes enemy units turn/defect to your side. (If Wanda can defect in middle of battle, possible much of army could be induced to do so)

In fiction we have example of Macbeth where a sign helped cause a revolt, in Erfworld it is possible that covert signomancy helped foster the rebel ambitions in TV by Don's children.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:26 pm

multilis wrote:
Lamech wrote:Foolamancy+signamancy. Signamancy is about showing things as they are. Foolamancy is about making fake images. I'm thinking, the illusions are now real. Someone is veiled as a cloud? Your arrows go through them. Those diversion beasts? You figured out they were fake? Oh, look now they are tearing your guts out. Jack casts mirror image on the army? You try to figure out what is real? ALL OF THEM

That sound to me like Carnymancy, Weirdomancy and Retconjuration.

Signomancer all we know is "nicest looking capitals" so far and natural signomancy seems to have affect on moral. Foolomancy+signomancy might be able to make a good ruler look bad or a servant look good as a way of causing revolt/civil war/betrayal, etc to destroy a kingdom from within or makes enemy units turn/defect to your side. (If Wanda can defect in middle of battle, possible much of army could be induced to do so)

In fiction we have example of Macbeth where a sign helped cause a revolt, in Erfworld it is possible that covert signomancy helped foster the rebel ambitions in TV by Don's children.

Natural signamancy is also the natural magic that makes people look like what they are. Warlords who sit around and manage a city, but don't ready for battle become pudgy. Warlords (like Artemis) who are constantly training become tough and strong looking. When Jillian became queen signomancy made her look like a queen. Natural signamancy is what tell casters which portal to return to in the MK. It shows what things are. What if you could fool that? Also if signamancy tells units what they should be doing in battle (don't stab the guy next to you, stab the guy in front), changing that would be a nasty combo.
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Re: Book 2 - Parson's Klog 4

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:41 pm

Aquillion wrote:More to the point, as others have said: Prior to Parson, nobody in Gobwin Knob was a good enough strategist to use the information from the table properly. So no matter how good it was in theory, it was a waste in practice.
Werebiscuit wrote:Having a satellite on its own is no good. You need a comms link and interactive graphical display for really good data transfer.
Several people have spoken about the table being limited by requiring Maggie for two way communications. I disagree. Stanley was able to use the table to order his troops, without those troops having any need to know the entire battlespace situation. Stanley used this to capture Jillian, remember.

And yes, Stanley is an idiot and randomly moved units around on a post-trimancer table. But that doesn't take away from the potential of the table, without requiring that it operate as a conference call of all GK forces.
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