Book 2 – Page 85

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Why I Love This Update

Postby Frosted » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:20 pm

I love this update because I feel like this is getting us closer to the origin story of Charlie.

Also, the art on this on is "straight ballin" as the kids say. Always classy when the art tells the story rather than just illustrates it.

It seems like Maggie is almost on empty for Juice. That seems Pretty Bad.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Zeku » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:10 pm

Ok, I'm just going to state on record what I've thought for several months. We seem to be getting somewhere with the Charlie conflict, so it seems like an acceptable time to mention this.

I believe that Maggie is Charlie.

She's not a stupidworlder, she's just a thinkamancer that attuned to the dish and was very clever about it. We've assumed up until now that Charlie wants to prolong war forever, but this is just another assumption based on forum posts. What if Maggie/Charlie wanted GK destroyed, since they were no longer customers? Her presence in GK allowed her to sabotage the casters there, observe the arkenhammer, and have complete intelligence over the side where she couldn't place her archons in scouting positions.

The appearance of Parson was definitely a disaster, but it also means more opportunity for her to sell mercenary work. She still wants Parson gone, (and all her recent activity suggests this) but according to her own principles, there's no reason why she can't make a profit off of everything that occurs. She may have orchestrated the solution to the 'Charlie problem,' thinking that she could turn a perfect warlord to her side, or at least destroy him if all else failed. I'm thinking Emperor/Luke here.

The other possibility is that Maggie is an archon, who overinvested in thinkamancy. This made her develop a kind of independence, while still having loyalty to Charlie. This was an old theory of mine, and I can't remember if anyone else raised it. It was suggested by her outfit, which she still wears.

The capstone and eye on her necklace is interesting, but I can't glean anything from it yet.
Last edited by Zeku on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Housellama » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:11 pm

...yeah, not among Maggie's best moments ever.

Knew this day was coming. Maggie has been trying to play her own game with Parson and that had to come to a head sooner or later. I don't think that Maggie's going to die here. Humbled? Yes. Psychologically beat down? Possibly. But dying? No. There's more story to tell.

I think this is Maggie's walk through the fire. Seymour had his during the tBfGK. It could be argued that Parson proposing to win at JS was Jack's. They are both loyal to Parson beyond, or in Seymour's case despite, doubt. Loyal to Parson personally, not to the Side. Yeah, Seymour may hate it, but I think he now believes that Parson can achieve a desired result.

Maggie has been above that up until now. She has seen Parson as a piece to be played to some extent. Now it's time for her to face the music and either fall in line or disappear. I can't see Maggie disappearing. I can't see Maggie choosing to remain with tGMTTA after this either. I think that if it comes down to a choice, Maggie's going to side with Parson over anything else, and this is where she proves it.
Last edited by Housellama on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Housellama » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:11 pm

Aside. Am I the only one who thinks Maggie is a little bit hot? Be honest people.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby BrotherRool » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:22 pm

I'd say the Thinkamancers don't even need to be worried because Charlie has the potential to dominate Erfworld. Just the fact that he can read their messages and screw with their magic is probably enough for them to decide he needs to be eliminated, especially since he's unknown and potentially unfriendly to them. Although I guess the great threat isn't covered by that, it could be them overstating it out of their own fear, but I didnt get that vibe
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Quanton » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:44 pm

Housellama wrote:Aside. Am I the only one who thinks Maggie is a little bit hot? Be honest people.


Yeah, I was surprised to find Maggie looking quite beautiful in panel 4.

Also, I think it's quite possible that Charlie will drop in on this conversation pretty soon. "Well, it's SO nice to see that you all have been thinking about me so much!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Tathar » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:15 pm

Ilari wrote:So Stanley and Wanda summoned Parson to save their side, Janis and Marie summoned him to end war, and the Thinkamancers summoned him to defeat Charlie. Just how many causes is he expected to champion?


You're forgetting one thing. Charlie's whole MO is to create wars and conflict so that he has customers to sustain his side. Peace is bad for his business, so therefore the Thinkamancers and Hippiemancers have a common enemy. Everything's in place for Parson to be convinced to take the fight to Charlie, assuming he isn't already planning to do so at some point. Convincing Stanley to go along with it would be trivial by comparison, even considering that Stanley's "hatred" of Charlie can now be called into question.

On another note, yay for one part of my prediction from last year coming true. Looks like we're gearing up for someone to sell Tram on the idea of allying with GK to take down Charlie. The JS portal won't disappear because Parson isn't going through to fight, but rather to negotiate an alliance. GK's massive treasury will probably play a part in promoting Tramennis to heir, since Charlie won't end up paying the Schmuckers needed. Tramennis is already interested in the idea of peace, and Slately could be convinced if it turns out that he needs to promote Tramennis to heir right away, as would be the case if he's a double about to fade away by the end of the turn.

EDIT: Charlie's Rule #3: We are in the business of solving problems for our clients. Corollary: Creating problems for our clients creates business.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Arky » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Neither the Arkendish nor the Arkenpliers nor the Arkenhammer break the rules enough to allow permanent Peace On Erf even with Parson.

Maybe all of them put together on the same Side, though. Well, them and the 4th Arkentool, whatever it is.


The Thinkamancers contributed to the summoning in the hope of a warlord who could defeat Charlie, but Janis contributed in the hope of Peace On Erf, Marie contributed for we-don't-know-why (if Marie doesn't have a hidden agenda I'll be shocked), Wanda contributed because she believes it's her fate to do it, and Stanley meddled with the exact specifications of the spell at the last minute. What they got was someone independent... probably more inclined towards Janis' goals if anyone's, although that may well require him to bring all the Arkentools together (satisfying Wanda), conquer all Erf under the banner of Gobwin Konb (satisfying Stanley) and defeat Charlie (satisfying the Thinkamancers). The crucial thing all of them need to understand is that they must let him do it his way- that's why he's the perfect warlord and they aren't, so just give him information and get out of his way!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Nnelg » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:16 pm

Lamech wrote:The dish doesn't let Charlie fight the whole world. The whole world gathered together would almost certainly put an end to him.

But the only thing that could possibly bring the whole world against him? That's the Arkendish.


Lamech wrote:[Charlie] can't watch everything.

Oh, I wouldn't put it past him...
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby bladestorm » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:11 pm

Maggie did seem rather eager to 'fix' the Eyebook hack issue, and did it rather quickly. She also seems rather nonchalant about the fact that Parson could very well die if he enters combat directly. Stray arrow to the eye socket is not an easy hit to soak. Maybe she was orchestrating those ideas in his head.

Also, IIRC, Maggie was tied up in the trimancer link, so she would have been unaware of Wanda getting the scroll and summoning Parson. The link gets broken, she shunts the damage (killing Misty and Mindwarping Jack in the process), and recovers to find this stupidworlder... who then goes on to nuking every single witness to the end of the first RCC, except Parson and his casters. Where did Charlie get that intel? Still mindreading his decrypted Archons?

Seems I am buying in to the theory of Maggie either being Charlie or aligned with Charlie somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby teratorn » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:30 pm

bladestorm wrote:Seems I am buying in to the theory of Maggie either being Charlie or aligned with Charlie somehow.


It seems I also was transported into another world, one where common sense doesn't exist.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby DeathTheKid » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:58 pm

bladestorm wrote: Also, IIRC, Maggie was tied up in the trimancer link, so she would have been unaware of Wanda getting the scroll and summoning Parson. The link gets broken, she shunts the damage (killing Misty and Mindwarping Jack in the process), and recovers to find this stupidworlder... who then goes on to nuking every single witness to the end of the first RCC, except Parson and his casters. Where did Charlie get that intel? Still mindreading his decrypted Archons?


if Maggie is Charlie, then the tri-link must not be all that difficult, considering Charlie was talking with Parson while it was causing a cataclysm:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F136.jpg

Charlie doesn't like risk (Charlie's Rule #17: Don't bet on the lame runner, unless you know you can shoot the healthy one. Corollary: Betting on the healthy runner and shooting the lame one is the better bet.), so he most definitely would not risk his life and identity just to punish someone for not hiring him. He could have just as easily aided the RCC for cheaper if it was that big of a deal to him.

We have seen into Maggie's mind during text updates, and we got no hint that Archon thinkamancy was anything more than a really crude parody of what a true thinkamancer could do. True, it could be her feeling vastly superior for being better, but I find it fairly unlikely. Also, Parson would have seen she was an archon when he looked at her with the glasses, and Isaac would definitely know if he ever had a thinkagram with her, or through any other shared thinkamancy (like breaking the tri-link perhaps).

I'm afraid that the odds of Maggie being Charlie or one of his Angels is incredibly, incredibly low...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby bladestorm » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:06 am

My other option is that each of Parson's RPG group back in stupidworld is one of the main factions, but since there were four players, with Parson being the fifth/opponent side, that kinda limits the options. It'd be similar to one of the many cloned flash games on the internet where the player controls a city/side. Maybe one player for Jetstone, one for Charlescomm, one for Transylvito, and one for FAQ maybe? Or each of the players controls one of the casters from GK. Something wants me to make correlations between Parson's gaming group and Erfworld. Four players, four arkentools -- but that's a stretch considering we don't have confirmation of the fourth tool. Another idea I had was that this entire game is a reflection of Ashna's concern over Parson's obsession with running the game. Maybe she's running a game and Parson is just getting swept up in it.

More random thoughts that may lead to something, or maybe not. Common sense be booped.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Beeskee » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:58 am

Ok, Parson looks PISSED. As well he should be, considering that someone on his side was withholding information from him. He spent all that time between book 1 and 2 doing not much, when he could have been seriously planning on how to take Charlie out, also. All these different groups that he doesn't even know about want to use him, but none of them yet has even just asked him. They're still treating him like a unit from Erfworld.



Housellama wrote:Aside. Am I the only one who thinks Maggie is a little bit hot? Be honest people.


No. I mean yes.

Okay, so she's actually kinda adorable. :)

Edit: I also don't think she's being unconcerned for Parson's safety. Will being in a battle put him in danger? Of course it will. Can Erfworld be changed by people sitting in their hidey-hole and just talking about change? Of course not. If it could, the casters could have sat around and talked the world into being a better place while they stayed safe in the Magic Kingdom. But that didn't work. Which is why Parson is here. And which the other casters seem to have forgotten.



Is that last line in the last panel a reference to Idiocracy? Or Myspace?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Glome » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:10 am

bladestorm wrote:
Also, IIRC, Maggie was tied up in the trimancer link, so she would have been unaware of Wanda getting the scroll and summoning Parson. The link gets broken, she shunts the damage (killing Misty and Mindwarping Jack in the process), and recovers to find this stupidworlder... who then goes on to nuking every single witness to the end of the first RCC, except Parson and his casters. Where did Charlie get that intel? Still mindreading his decrypted Archons?


What intel? He knew about the volcano exploding because of real time info from the archons before they croaked. He knew about the trimancer link because the casters went to the magic kingdom in that state, so everyone in the magic kingdom probably knew about this event, and Charlie clearly has allies in the magic kingdom he can get info from. Any further gaps of intel can be filled by being able to listen in on any thinkagram as well as the eyebooks, and Charlie is smart enough to put two and two together to figure out what is going on.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:34 am

teratorn wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Seems I am buying in to the theory of Maggie either being Charlie or aligned with Charlie somehow.


It seems I also was transported into another world, one where common sense doesn't exist.



I'm reminded of the essay [url="http://lesswrong.com/lw/s0/where_recursive_justification_hits_bottom/"]here[/url], with the lines:

Eliezer Yudkowski wrote:There are possible minds in mind design space who have anti-Occamian and anti-Laplacian priors; they believe that simpler theories are less likely to be correct, and that the more often something happens, the less likely it is to happen again.

And when you ask these strange beings why they keep using priors that never seem to work in real life... they reply, "Because it's never worked for us before!"

Now, one lesson you might derive from this, is "Don't be born with a stupid prior." This is an amazingly helpful principle on many real-world problems, but I doubt it will satisfy philosophers.


But in this case it's nothing to do with the prior, it's about the response to evidence.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby sheepfly » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:03 am

teratorn wrote:It seems I also was transported into another world, one where common sense doesn't exist.


Logging into this forum is not without its risks. But at least you're making an informed choice. :P
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby teratorn » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:59 am

drachefly wrote:But in this case it's nothing to do with the prior, it's about the response to evidence.


I hope it's a joke. We had text updates showing us what Maggie thinks and feels.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby WarFAN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:03 am

Just a random thought...

...Maybe Charle does know about the different Magic Kingdom conspiracies. We know two things for sure:

a) Charlie does not have Warlords in his side.
b) He was willing to capture Parson or accepting him in Charlescomm.

Hummm...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Vreejack » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:25 am

So this is apparently as much as the thinkamancers know. There was a strip or something earlier in which Janice and the predictamancer were commenting on the trimancer link that created the "Summon Parson" spell. I recall that they believed that the thinkamancer involved had been slightly misled as to its purpose, or did not know complete story. Here we see what they seem to believe about Parson. It is probably a good explanation as to why the thinkamancers seem to be--unlike most other casters--supporting Parson.
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