Book 2 – Page 85

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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Pentegarn » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:44 am

0beron wrote:This is speculation, but I am of the opinion Charlie is also from Stupidworld, summoned in the same fashion as Parson, but by the Great Minds to serve some purpose of their own. Unfortunately for them, he reneged on them and has proceeded to "damage" G-strings by wielding the 'Dish like a metaphorical hammer, and by popping a massive number of Archons.


Been awhile since I bothered posting here but the above quote intrigued me

It would explain quite a lot about why Erfworld seems to be an amalgamation of things that are familiar to Parson. If someone from his world got there first, someone with Charlie's power, then all the vague references would make sense. We don't know what all powers the dish has, and for all we know it could have changed the physical rules in Erfworld to things that were familiar or amusing to Charlie (for example the onomatopoeias that happen). Which would explain why the thinkamancers feel he is such a threat
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:53 am

The habit of Casters hiding information from their Sides is crashing down on all of them.

But Parson should not be too angry. He should be familiar with the concept of conflict interest. Maggie is trapped. If she tells GK about her knowledge of the plans of the GMTTA, then she can never be allowed to hear their plans. She would become isolated.

But the GMTTA hope that Parson would remove Charlie's threat can't be enforced. They would push for it, and Stanley's intent to capture all the Tools works out well for helping that plan along, but ultimately, the GMTTA have no leverage to force Parson into their design.

But this has lead me to another bit of speculation.

Were the GMTTA behind Haffaton's success, and was that Side pointed at Charlie, too? We know he already exists in Book 0: Jillian discusses him. And the GMTTA would go a long way towards explaining Haffaton's exceptional success.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 am

Kreistor wrote:And the GMTTA would go a long way towards explaining Haffaton's exceptional success.

I'm not so sure about that. What would a bunch of Thinkamancers be able to do for Haffaton? Their weakness is economic in nature; they can't afford the amount of units that would be required to defend themselves. So sure, Thinkamancers would be able to keep them better in touch with their forces over such a large area, but doesn't help the economic situation. Is there another way you had in mind that they'd help Haffaton?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:23 am

Beeskee wrote:Is that last line in the last panel a reference to Idiocracy? Or Myspace?


Yeah, I think so. I've heard more than one person mockingly link facebook and myspace that way... and my Mom even once used the phrase unironically. The odd formatting stresses that something is meant to be read into, IMO.

Housellama wrote:Aside. Am I the only one who thinks Maggie is a little bit hot? Be honest people.


Book 1, nononono... Book 2, yeah!

Not sure if it's a difference in artists or a difference in signamancy as Maggie went from downtrodden and exhausted to rested, engaged, and a little infatuated.

0beron wrote:Is there another way you had in mind that they'd help Haffaton?


Well, looking at the speculation from the last text update, they could have provided the thinkamancers to link the other casters. I give it <10% chance of being true though.

Finally, a very minor quibble about art, which has been wonderful throughout Book 2... on a couple of occasions the insides of mouths have been colored with a fairly saturated color of red (take panel 11 on this strip). It makes me think at a glance that the person is wearing gigantic wax lips.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:27 am

effataigus wrote:Not sure if it's a difference in artists or a difference in signamancy as Maggie went from downtrodden and exhausted to rested, engaged, and a little infatuated.


I'm fairly confident it is the latter. Jack is looking a lot better too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:29 am

effataigus wrote:
0beron wrote:Is there another way you had in mind that [the Great Minds could] help Haffaton?
Well, looking at the speculation from the last text update, they could have provided the Thinkamancers to link the other casters. I give it <10% chance of being true though.
Actually that's a good point. If Haffaton already had casters of their own that could help address the economic issues, providing Thinkamancers to make links free of charge could be a helpful nudge. Heck, simply making Bi-Links with a Haffaton Moneymancer, Dollamancer, Dirtamancer, Dittomancer, Wanda or Olive would give that caster tons of extra juice to perform their duties in relieving the financial strain of such a large side (making units that take no/reduced upkeep).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Oberon » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:49 am

Lamech wrote:The dish doesn't let Charlie fight the whole world.
Offensively? Perhaps not. But defensively? I think so.
Lamech wrote:The whole world gathered together would almost certainly put an end to him. His archons would wither without upkeep, and his traps exhausted eventually. The arkenpliers on the other hand let someone break the very important upkeep problem. Set up relays to ferry corpses to your capital and hunt units in the wilderness and one can become exponential too. More importantly Charlie cannot "win" Erfworld. At least not with creating mind controlled dummy corps. Even if he wipes out every other side in one fell swoop then what? He can't settle every city, so his forces dwindle. His forces dwindle and he can't watch everything. He can't watch everything and new units pop. Erfworld starts anew. The arkenpliers DO have the ability to rewrite the paradigm of Erfworld.
Once Charlie knows that he's not going to be getting any more contracts from his attackers, he goes into the city razing business to keep his archons upkeep paid. No side will be able to both project force by joining an attacking alliance and protect all of its cities from a well balanced group of archons with a mission to infiltrate behind enemy lines and take out "supply lines" i.e. capture and raze any weakly garrisoned city. And remember that they don't even need to fight all the units in any given target city. Just the garrison. Then the city is theirs to raze, and this can keep his archon's upkeep paid. And with each city taken and razed, that's more pressure upon any given attacking side to pull back for defense or even sue for peace.

Archons are also well suited to the "destroy the siege and withdraw" tactics which Parson used to effectively against the RCC. And they can veil while hiding to reduce any chance of enemy fliers attacking them.

Settle captured cities? He's never wanted to settle other cities, that's why he is still just a one city side. The only need he'd ever have to settle would be if he was going to lose his capitol and needed a bolt hole. Which he could do a lot more efficiently than Stanley. As long as the 'dish is portable, which if it has the same resizing capabilities of the 'hammer and 'pliers it should be, Carlie and a flock of archons waves goodbye to the golems and other dolls posted as guards and sets up shop in another city. Leaving behind one archon to raze his ex-capitol for a nice cash boost to help set up the new city.

And who knows what happens if he "wipes out every other side in one fell swoop"? That might be the end of the 'game.' And even were it not, why do you say he couldn't settle every captured city? In the absence of any opposition nothing is capable of stopping him in this case, right?
effataigus wrote:I've heard more than one person mockingly link facebook and myspace that way... and my Mom even once used the phrase unironically. The odd formatting stresses that something is meant to be read into, IMO.
I prefer Conan's joke about the merger of Youtube, Twitter, and Myspace. Called "YouTwitFace"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Raza » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:49 am

For thinkamancers, they're not very good at psychology. Co-opting someone's existing goal and stating that it's been your plan to make it that from the start is a very poor way to motivate them to get to it.

Or maybe that'd be a date-a-mancer's insight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Brucester » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:03 am

Love the LinkedIn, Facebook, Tumblr and Twitter parodies in this strip. Bravo. Very clever.

Looking forward to when Parson goes
through
the
shiny
blue
portal.....

Pretty please.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:04 am

Lamech wrote:The dish doesn't let Charlie fight the whole world...


I mostly agree with your assessment in that Charlescomm becomes unsustainable as soon as people stop doing business with it.

However, I've played a couple games that resemble Erfworld, and they usually have a "global economic buyout" endgame scenario. While nobody has mentioned this existing in comic, we do know that schmuckers equate to actual power in Erfworld (consider that rebuilding GK just took schmuckers). It would be interesting to see what could be done with the accumulated wealth of eons of Erfworld time. Charlescomm might not NEED to fight the whole world to beat it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:15 am

effataigus wrote:It would be interesting to see what could be done with the accumulated wealth of eons of Erfworld time.
Good point....if Charlie actually has the accumulated wealth of Eons. With only 1 city for income yet a massive Archon force plus contracts with the MK, and presumably occasional cash payouts to customers, Charlie may be routinely breaking even. I'm not sure how much he has been able to save up.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Oberon » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:21 am

Zeroberon wrote:With only 1 city for income yet a massive Archon force plus contracts with the MK, and presumably occasional cash payouts to customers, Charlie may be routinely breaking even. I'm not sure how much he has been able to save up.
What about Charlie presents him as someone who is happy breaking even? His entire philosophy has been that the accumulation of wealth is most important, and that philosophy combined with a break-even strategy for upkeep balanced by income would make Charlie to stupidest side ruler we have yet to see.

In simple terms, it equates to saying "I think that thing X is the most important thing to acquire" and then proceeding to act in a way which never allows thing X to come your way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:28 am

Well motivation is not always the same as reality. It may not be POSSIBLE for him to do better than breaking even is basically what I was suggesting.
Or alternatively, wealth takes many different forms. Just because he operates at a profit doesn't mean he'd be sitting on a pile of schmuckers and gems. He may turn those profits into more Archons and enhanced services. Building up a stockpile of scrolls. Or whatever expansion money can buy to allow him to do more business. So while he is "making money" he may not have a great deal of cash just sitting around and readily available.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Amado » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:43 am

Tathar wrote:
On another note, yay for one part of my prediction from last year coming true. Looks like we're gearing up for someone to sell Tram on the idea of allying with GK to take down Charlie. The JS portal won't disappear because Parson isn't going through to fight, but rather to negotiate an alliance. GK's massive treasury will probably play a part in promoting Tramennis to heir, since Charlie won't end up paying the Schmuckers needed. Tramennis is already interested in the idea of peace, and Slately could be convinced if it turns out that he needs to promote Tramennis to heir right away, as would be the case if he's a double about to fade away by the end of the turn.


This. Well-spotted, sir/madame. This is being set up quite nicely.

Even if it doesn't come to pass in this way, it's certainly reasonable to suppose that it COULD. This is a real option... and a potentially really attractive one to many sides.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:01 pm

Tathar wrote: On another note, yay for one part of my prediction from last year coming true. Looks like we're gearing up for someone to sell Tram on the idea of allying with GK to take down Charlie. The JS portal won't disappear because Parson isn't going through to fight, but rather to negotiate an alliance. GK's massive treasury will probably play a part in promoting Tramennis to heir, since Charlie won't end up paying the Schmuckers needed. Tramennis is already interested in the idea of peace, and Slately could be convinced if it turns out that he needs to promote Tramennis to heir right away, as would be the case if he's a double about to fade away by the end of the turn.


"Sir, good news! You know that side that took away two of your sons, that you just found out what it truly means to be alive when you started killing their troops wholesale, that you are in an alliance of self preservation against, that is - as we speak - invading your capital city and murdering and resurrecting your troops as abominations, that has bankrupted your nation, that has lead to the destruction of the side lead by one of your closer friends, and that uses tactics that you find both ignoble and profane... well they want to ally with you against that guy that now owes you a ton of money and always seems to keep his end of bargains! Get this, they're willing to pay you less than you're owed by the other guy too! Drinks all around!"

I'm not saying it's not going to happen someday with Tram, but I am saying it's not going to credibly happen with Slatley until Charlie does something really egregious on his turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:27 pm

WarFAN wrote:Just a random thought...

...Maybe Charle does know about the different Magic Kingdom conspiracies. We know two things for sure:

a) Charlie does not have Warlords in his side.
b) He was willing to capture Parson or accepting him in Charlescomm.

Hummm...


We only know the first thing for sure. And technically, Charlie could have warlords, just no chief to give a side wide bonus to the archons.

And that's assuming the decrypted archons were telling the truth, which is a fairly safe assumption.

Edit: I should probably hit F5 before doing anything else if I leave a webpage open overnight. This was the last post before....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby atalex » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:36 pm

For the record, I think Bogroll is a more plausible candidate for "secretly Charlie in disguise" than Maggie is and he's been dead for over three years.:)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:59 pm

0beron wrote:Thinkamancers would be able to keep them better in touch with their forces over such a large area, but doesn't help the economic situation. Is there another way you had in mind that they'd help Haffaton?


You're only considering their direct influence. The GMTTA can negotiate the use of their powers with others that could manipulate Haffaton in other ways. Trading of services, for instance, or just plain manipulation. I am not limiting the GMTTA to just using their own Thinkamancy, but considering them as a group with political power that can influence things behind the scenes, where even Haffaton may not realize they are a tool of the GMTTA.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Angband » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Love the social networking references. But wouldn't "FACEBONK" in the Facebook font be a better one than "FACEPLANT"?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 85

Postby Nnelg » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:30 pm

0beron wrote:
Kreistor wrote:And the GMTTA would go a long way towards explaining Haffaton's exceptional success.

I'm not so sure about that. What would a bunch of Thinkamancers be able to do for Haffaton? Their weakness is economic in nature; they can't afford the amount of units that would be required to defend themselves. So sure, Thinkamancers would be able to keep them better in touch with their forces over such a large area, but doesn't help the economic situation. Is there another way you had in mind that they'd help Haffaton?

Being able to coordinate better directly leads to being able to defend more ground with fewer troops.


Oberon wrote:
Zeroberon wrote:With only 1 city for income yet a massive Archon force plus contracts with the MK, and presumably occasional cash payouts to customers, Charlie may be routinely breaking even. I'm not sure how much he has been able to save up.
What about Charlie presents him as someone who is happy breaking even? His entire philosophy has been that the accumulation of wealth is most important, and that philosophy combined with a break-even strategy for upkeep balanced by income would make Charlie to stupidest side ruler we have yet to see.

In simple terms, it equates to saying "I think that thing X is the most important thing to acquire" and then proceeding to act in a way which never allows thing X to come your way.

Given that deficit spending is nearly universal in Erfworld, breaking even is quite the economic accomplishment.


cheeseaholic wrote:
WarFAN wrote:Just a random thought...

...Maybe Charle does know about the different Magic Kingdom conspiracies. We know two things for sure:

a) Charlie does not have Warlords in his side.
b) He was willing to capture Parson or accepting him in Charlescomm.

Hummm...


We only know the first thing for sure. And technically, Charlie could have warlords, just no chief to give a side wide bonus to the archons.

And that's assuming the decrypted archons were telling the truth, which is a fairly safe assumption.

Edit: I should probably hit F5 before doing anything else if I leave a webpage open overnight. This was the last post before....

Actually, Charlie doesn't have warlords as far as his field archons know. He might have a few hidden away in his private sanctum, perhaps in cryostorage (I wouldn't put it past him). As for a chief warlord, a side-wide bonus might be mistakenly thought to come directly from Charlie, or the 'Dish. If Chief Warlords cost extra upkeep that might be why he doesn't have one; or maybe Charlie's his own chief warlord...
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