Book 2 – Page 86

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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:21 pm

I like the art of the Archer. Nice work Xin. Not really sure how to describe what I'm seeing, but his facial features are really distinctive, naturalistic, and yet still look "simple" and cartoon-like, not out of place with the rest of the comic or anything.

Really nice seeing an artist and her work evolve.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby effataigus » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:25 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Confused, need help, thanks!


My understanding from the observation that Ossomer landed outside of the Atrium and that he landed in front of where Tramennis was bedridden, is that they are all now in the "outer walls" city zone: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2096&p=48403&hilit=effataigus#p48403

While no explicit ruling has been given on the area between the atrium and the outer walls themselves, my inclination is to believe that the zone begins at the fortified boundary... so the outer walls would include the space up to the walls of the atrium. This interpretation is certainly consistent with this conversation we are observing. Burning down the garrison would just torch the atrium and the dungeons.

An implication of this is that if Sylvia moves quickly, the garrison will fall under GK control, and the lot of them (Jetstone) will become captured.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:38 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Nnelg wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:So help me out here, I thought I had a good handle on the mechanics, but now I'm not so sure.

1) Tower down should have won the battle... but for the fact that the King (or his double) escaped to airspace.
2) So where's the King now? Implication from a previous comic is that they're aground with Tramennis. So they moved from airspace to... garrison?
3) I thought GK holds the entire garrison? That was the implication from Sylvia on this page. Could the King and Tramennis be hiding in a portion of the garrison?

Confused, need help, thanks!
1) Right.

2) Probably out of the city. Recovering Tramennis was the last thing on the list of things to do before escaping.

3) There's lots of hidey-holes in Spacerock's garrison. It's probably not the King though, because now that he's got a clear airspace and enough money to make Tramennis heir there's little reason to stick around anymore.


Ahh, I think that makes sense, they grabbed Tramennis and bailed (maybe to a nearby Jetstone city) after clearing out the airspace. And that there are a few hiding units still in the Garrison (and we saw that scout units can indeed hide). In fact, perhaps even the allied Transylvito bat that we've seen on screen would be enough to prevent the garrison from falling?

Or... it might be cool if the King and Tramennis are still hiding in a portion of the garrison, too. Would set up a future, more imminent confrontation.


If you look at the page where Ossomer dies, you can see Tremenis still in the city, in a building.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-27.jpg

I think the garrison consists of more than just the Atrium. I'm not going to look that up, but I think the Atrium was described in one of the text updates as being a strong part, but only part, of the garrison. I think there might be an inner courtyard area that counts as garrison, besides the Atrium.

Hide-holes is still plausible. Wanda and her force took a fairly direct route to the portal. There could be a few troops in side rooms in the small dungeon area too.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby effataigus » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:50 pm

Gameboy... I'm tempted to disagree that the area they are in counts as the garrison.

Recall that the garrison has three subzones: tower, courtyard, and dungeons, and that in JS the courtyard has been replaced by the atrium. To me this means that anything else should belong in other city zones (not to be confused with other garrison subzones). Also, in this update, Tram implies the streets leading up to the atrium's archway are not the garrison... IIRC:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-20.png

Hence I believe the King and Tram are currently in the outer walls city zone, and safe from dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:13 pm

Yes, that does seem to imply that the courtyard/garrison area was completely replaced by the Atrium.

In that case, I'm also a bit confused why the city hasn't been captured. The Tower is destroyed and Atrium seem completely occupied. That leaves some guys hiding out in the dungeon I guess. I hope Rob offers an explanation.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby fehler » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:42 pm

Jojo's schtick for Parson is that its possible to fight fate, and win. Maybe Sylvia was his test case. She was fated to croak, but Jojo fought off fate, until finally fate no longer has a hold on her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:53 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Yes, that does seem to imply that the courtyard/garrison area was completely replaced by the Atrium.

In that case, I'm also a bit confused why the city hasn't been captured. The Tower is destroyed and Atrium seem completely occupied. That leaves some guys hiding out in the dungeon I guess. I hope Rob offers an explanation.

See the wall type things? Their are rooms in there. Right now filled with unled or poorly led units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:26 pm

In most cities, the entire Garrison Zone is surrounded by the Inner Walls. In Spacerock's case, the "inner walls" are actually that palace several rooms thick that surrounds the Atrium. So units hiding in it would presumably still be counted as within the "Courtyard".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:28 pm

I have become some less enamored with Sylvia's character because of this update.

Not because she suggests burning down the garrison. that was actually the good part of the page. I've been waiting for someone to say "Burn the garrison" for a while now. It's an obvious solution and it has also been foreshadowed heavily. Sylvia is a good choice to say it because it fits with her established character attitudes.

I just don't like the origin she has for those character attitudes. The magical protection aspect changes my perception of her prior actions in a way that makes her less interesting. She worked better as some random warlord who just happened to do well in harrowing circumstances thru sheer pluck and luck.

When I read these updates before, her actions while trapped under a dwagon and while facing Artemis felt adrenaline fueled and risky. Her belief that fate was toying with/protecting her was an interesting delusion of grandeur character flaw. Now we have proof that Sylvia had actual reason to believe she was protected during those situations. Now she might as well have been wearing a parachute, veiled by Jack, and swinging a shield around.

We already had more than enough female characters who became blessed/cursed by fate/luck because some caster found them attractive when we just had Wanda and Jillian. They are getting tiring to see. We're either going to get the whole doomed, overdone, Romeo/Juliet death scene or some boringly invincible, but pretty, heroes.


On another note, I am unsure why this is a comic page instead of a text update like previous Sylvia centric updates. The idea of setting the garrison on fire could have been put foreward more simply regardless of if it is the plan that gets used or not. If Sylvia's protection or relation to Jeftichew are meant to be important to the ongoing comic plot, (not just interesting tidbits that give the story more flavor like the text updates are supposed to be), then there are few good options I can see for their use. (I'm really hoping there isn't a contrived scene/call in which Sylvia convinces Jeftichew to let Parson thru the portal.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Zeku » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:41 pm

I can't substantiate this, but I'm guessing that Artemis was the price that was paid for Sylvia, if that's what actually happened.


But given that Carnymancy is involved, I'm guessing that Jeffichew is just duping Sylvia into thinking she has a powerful Fate, so she can be easily manipulated later.

The strategy would be simple, 'recover' a large group of level 1 units, perhaps as an ongoing process. The ones that miraculously survive for a long time, now believe a delusion about their own invincibility, and can be used for suicide missions.

Notice also, how this sentiment exists at the same time as her obedience to Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:22 pm

Hah. Nice. And sorta not. Obviously I like this update, but it's a qualified, incomplete liking ->

Swodaems wrote:I just don't like the origin she has for those character attitudes. The magical protection aspect changes my perception of her prior actions in a way that makes her less interesting. She worked better as some random warlord who just happened to do well in harrowing circumstances thru sheer pluck and luck.


I find your analysis to be quite spot on. I've said previously that one thing which made the not-quite-character so appealing in Book 1 was her refusal to stay down in the face of Parson's and/or the Titans' curve balls that were thrown at her. You knew that she was on the losing side in Book 1, however grim the situation was for GK. I even did two tongue-in-cheek sketches of the Titans tormenting Sylvia, one of which can be found on the deviantart fan-group for Erfworld.

Finding out that she's not the Titans' fav chew toy, but sort of an actual darling, is a bit of a surprise that's not entirely welcome.

That said, the update raises a LOT of questions and issues and interesting things for the audience of Erfworld. Aye, just what can Carnymancy do? What was the price paid for whatever Sylvia got? Did she really get a kind of immortality? Or is there something else going on, like Zeku suggests:

Zeku wrote:But given that Carnymancy is involved, I'm guessing that Jeffichew is just duping Sylvia into thinking she has a powerful Fate, so she can be easily manipulated later.

The strategy would be simple, 'recover' a large group of level 1 units, perhaps as an ongoing process. The ones that miraculously survive for a long time, now believe a delusion about their own invincibility, and can be used for suicide missions.


I like the suggestion, because it removes magical protection from the equation, but whatever. Moving on, there's the Jeftichew angle which may play interestingly later. Also, as Raza notices, Sylvia, just like Wanda, survives her own side, as if the price for one's own durability is the death of the thing they are nominally, or truly, affectionately, bound to.

All in all, even if you couldn't care less about the two characters but do care about Erf physics, a meaty update.

Also, Captain Archer is cool.

And, having had the opportunity to have to wring answers out of subordinates, I appreciate Sylvia's direct approach at getting Archer into tactician mode :twisted:

PS:

Time for a new avatar (finally). And for once, I'm spoiled for choice. Weeeee!!!!!1123

EDIT, the 2nd: I should have mentioned that this update neatly explains certain cryptic lines in Sylvia's poem. So now we know. She really was 'dead' before the GK incident.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:07 pm

0beron wrote:In most cities, the entire Garrison Zone is surrounded by the Inner Walls. In Spacerock's case, the "inner walls" are actually that palace several rooms thick that surrounds the Atrium. So units hiding in it would presumably still be counted as within the "Courtyard".

For reference, this information is in Book 2 - Text Update 25.
Most Level 5 cities were designed with some unique or augmented feature. Some designs emphasized outer walls or tower or tunnel structures, often at the expense of other parts of the city. Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:13 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:That said, the update raises a LOT of questions and issues and interesting things for the audience of Erfworld. Aye, just what can Carnymancy do? What was the price paid for whatever Sylvia got? Did she really get a kind of immortality? Or is there something else going on, like Zeku suggests:

Here is my prediction: Jeff traded with someone (presumably Charlie) for the power (presumably involving Charlie linking up with him) to rig Sylvia up with some big bad fate protection. That was the trade; otherwise Jeff wouldn't have needed to wait to get to the capital. Of course, its a fate protection. Fate needs to be paid, and fate doesn't care if it you like how it comes to pass. So basically its a luckamancy boost, but with the little literal genie flaw. If that is the case its a very dangerous deal. What if her group is ambushed by a crack team of mounted archers? They waste most of their arrows trying to hit her, then swarm her, probably capturing her. Or maybe they decide she got way too lucky and float off. So now she's run up a nice big fat bill getting saved from who knows how many arrows.

Of course, all this is made worse by the fact that she seems to know about her protection, but has no idea of the cost. Its like you gave a kid a credit card, told them they can get stuff with it, and forgot to explain that things do need to be paid for. And the credit card doesn't have a limit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:15 pm

Swodaems wrote:If Sylvia's protection or relation to Jeftichew are meant to be important to the ongoing comic plot, (not just interesting tidbits that give the story more flavor like the text updates are supposed to be), then there are few good options I can see for their use. (I'm really hoping there isn't a contrived scene/call in which Sylvia convinces Jeftichew to let Parson thru the portal.)


It would appear that fondness has soured, and not just because they're now on opposite sides, of course. Such a call will not happen.

It would be interesting to know what Jeftichew thinks of the abominable decrypted Sylvia ... as opposed to the abominable carnymancied Sylvia, if her version of events is true.

If her version of events is true, as opposed to Zeku's, then something deeply idiosyncratic and not-practical, therefore interesting, appears to have happened. A unit with a modicum of agency (Caster Jeftichew) grows fond enough of a mass-produceable doll of a unit that has the same liberty and distinctiveness as a toy soldier, to cheat the world for her sake. Either something is deeply mad here (and it's not just Sylvia), or there's more going on with those stabber dolls. (Or, there was no fondness, and Sylvia simply happened to be the lucky robot that Jeftichew picked for an experiment. Still interesting, given the unique results and Erfworlders' propensity to not innovate.)

So basically, why Jeftichew, why? How did you pull that off? What do you think about it now, and does that inform your collaboration with Charlie? If so in what way?

I'd call these interesting questions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby cloudbreaker » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:40 pm

Cost of keeping one select unit around (Sylivia) = the price of getting rid of another select unit (Parson).

I'm guessing it wasn't a coincidence that Jojo was involved in both.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Gorky » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:23 pm

Great comic!

For some reason, I get the feeling Sylvia is going to be attuned to an Arkentool in the future.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby WarFAN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:45 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
If her version of events is true, as opposed to Zeku's, then something deeply idiosyncratic and not-practical, therefore interesting, appears to have happened. A unit with a modicum of agency (Caster Jeftichew) grows fond enough of a mass-produceable doll of a unit that has the same liberty and distinctiveness as a toy soldier, to cheat the world for her sake. Either something is deeply mad here (and it's not just Sylvia), or there's more going on with those stabber dolls. (Or, there was no fondness, and Sylvia simply happened to be the lucky robot that Jeftichew picked for an experiment. Still interesting, given the unique results and Erfworlders' propensity to not innovate.)

So basically, why Jeftichew, why? How did you pull that off? What do you think about it now, and does that inform your collaboration with Charlie? If so in what way?

I'd call these interesting questions.


My first answer to that question is not madness, but love. Love seems to be an important force in Erfworld,wich is very interesting in a world populated by a great majority of barelly free-willed beings.

Maybe Jeftichew was in love with Sylvia and she was the reason to trade with Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:05 pm

Justyn wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Beeskee wrote:I thought all wounds healed at dawn? It seems a little odd that Chewie had so make some special arrangements for Sylvia to heal.
Incapacitated units that aren't healed normally croak.

Depends on the type of incapacitation, but yeah.


Maybe he made arguments about probability, spontaneously freezing atmospheres, blue suns, and semantics until her Zero HP became a non-zero floating point variable? Or added up the partial hp from other units, one of which could have been a royal. Then she would literally have hp from a royal inside of her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:33 pm

WarFAN wrote:I think all this affair Jeftichew/Sylvia is just another of the -seemingly infinite- Charlie´s Special Ops:

- Secret Wars versus TGMtTA.
- King Saline IV´s natural allies rebellion.
- Wanda´s ambush for Stanley at FAQ, screwed up.
- Not gobwins natural allies for Gobwin Knob.
- Secret help to FAQ and (now openly) Jetstone.
- Jeftichew ambushing Parson at the Magic Kingdom to give him a Charlie-made scroll.

Seriously... I hope Charlie is about to be revealed as the main and only antagonist.

Because i think the only other option is that Charlie is being used only as a convenient tool to move the plot while leaving a lot of loops hanging around for future uses. Don´t you thing it´s becoming a bit tiring?

Sorry about my english...

There are plenty of stories that don't involve Charlie at all.
-The popping of a royal heir for Transylvito, and what the spells for Ceasar.
-Jillian struggling with her role as Queen of FAQ
-Jillian popping an heir, which may end up being just as headstrong and against the queen's ideals as she was towards Banhammer
-Whether or not FAQ is still veiled
-the jillian/ansom/vinny/wanda love-whatevershape
-Stanley wanting his prized Chief Warlord back, and very predictably heading to get Ansom back with a full army of Dwagons
-The chance that Wanda could start her own side, given the raw power she now possesses
-The possibility of Stanley doing something stupid, getting croaked, and the Hammer ending up in someone else's hands (and of all of GK's units in MK becoming Barbarian
-the secret love story of Ceasar and Bunny (which would get really complicated if TV fell while Ceasar was afield, and Bunny got sent to MK)
-what kind of casters are there going to be in FAQ? (predictamancer/foolamancer trilink to make sure it stays veiled?)
-all of the casters that have been recently introduced have some sort of backstory, unless MK pops units itself
-there may be three other entities out there just like Charlie that have yet to be revealed, making one for each of Parson's players


Rob got plenty of open loops and loose ends that can be converted into future story lines. Doesn't look like there is any shortage of possibilities for story lines that don't involve turning Charlie into the Ultimate Antagonist/Anti-Parson. Not all character development needs to center around Parson, and not all opposition needs to involve Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby cloudbreaker » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:37 pm

Is that creature pulling the wagon one of Unaroyal's hollas?
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