Book 2 – Page 86

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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:58 pm

Kreistor wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Sorta like how GK no longer pops Gobwins and can only pop Hobgobwins due to Vurp.


The missing Gobwins is a larger problem than that. Normally, they could find a Gobwin wandering the environment and entice him to join up as a natural ally, since like dwagons they pop in the environment like Barbarians. GK's scouts aren't even finding those. Something is preventing GK from finding Gobwins.

Which suggests interference by a major player with an excess of units that have long movement ranges to hunt for Gobwins and then hide. Barbaians pop at beginning of Day, so the antagonist would need to have a Natural Turn Order before GK. The obvious culprit is Charlie, who fits all of those requirements. If GK intends to assault Charlescomm, with its mountainous terrain, then GK needs tunnel-capable units. For GK, that means Gobwins and Spidews. Keeping Gobwins out of GK's hands is in Charlie's direct interest. Further, it gives him units to occupy his own tunnels.

And now that we know Isaac wants Parson to remove Charlie, we know that Charlie is not being paranoid in coming up with such a plan.


GK can kill the droves of Marbits they have found, decrypt them, and have instant tunnel units. Unless the Marbits cannot ally themselves with any side that has gobwin/witches/daemons/hobgobwins thing extends to decrypted marbits as well.

And just because they can pop as barbarian and are't doesn't counter the fact that GK used to be able to pop Gobwins, but now cannot because there are no living gobwins on GK's side. If Vurp had been croaked in that battle with Transylvito, GK wouldn't be producing and Hobgobwins either.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:14 pm

There is a difference between "aren't popping" and "aren't being found". You may decide to conclude that they are not popping anymore, but would need to invent some kind of mechanism in order to allow that to happen. You need to invent a caster link or some other undescribed element of power to cause it to happen. Maybe give the Arkendish the power. Whatever. You can come up with millions of inventions to explain it.

All the elements of my solution are already described as being within Charlie's power and in his best interest. He needs Turn Order advantage (check), fast moving scout units that can hide (Archons with Foolamancy, check), money to hire them (check), and a motive (prevent invasion of Charlescomm, check). That's all.

Since I am not inventing anything, Occam's Razor favours my conclusion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:43 pm

bladestorm wrote:GK can kill the droves of Marbits they have found, decrypt them, and have instant tunnel units.
But then they can only have as many tunnel units as they can find and kill. All they need is a single gobwin, and they can immediately pop as many additional gobwins as their treasury allows. Since more diggers = more gems, the rate of gobwin creation would increase dramatically, compared to a few paltry marbits every turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:06 pm

Kreistor wrote:There is a difference between "aren't popping" and "aren't being found". You may decide to conclude that they are not popping anymore, but would need to invent some kind of mechanism in order to allow that to happen. You need to invent a caster link or some other undescribed element of power to cause it to happen. Maybe give the Arkendish the power. Whatever. You can come up with millions of inventions to explain it.

All the elements of my solution are already described as being within Charlie's power and in his best interest. He needs Turn Order advantage (check), fast moving scout units that can hide (Archons with Foolamancy, check), money to hire them (check), and a motive (prevent invasion of Charlescomm, check). That's all.

Since I am not inventing anything, Occam's Razor favours my conclusion.


Occam's razor does not favour your argument, since the question at hand didn't deal with Charlie's involvement with the Gobwins disappearing -- it dealt with the possibility of Charlie being the lone survivor of a side from long ago, and his capitol city somehow lost the ability to produce any other unit type other than Archons. Nothing about turn order, motive, caster links, or the concept of gobwins no longer popping on a capitol side for whatever reason. Just lone survivor status. The use of gobwins and hobgobwins was just an example of a side no longer producing a unit that it formerly did. Vurp is a lone survivor and possibly the last remaining individual with firsthand knowledge of what happened to King Saline IV. In order to invoke Occam's Razor, the competing theories have to address the same issue.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:41 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
bladestorm wrote:GK can kill the droves of Marbits they have found, decrypt them, and have instant tunnel units.
But then they can only have as many tunnel units as they can find and kill. All they need is a single gobwin, and they can immediately pop as many additional gobwins as their treasury allows. Since more diggers = more gems, the rate of gobwin creation would increase dramatically, compared to a few paltry marbits every turn.

In the long run, the "lots of Marbits" is probably better. Gems will be exhausted. If the high rate of Marbit production remains indefinitely, they get a bunch of free Marbits. Plus what is GK even using cash for anyway?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:48 pm

Lamech wrote:In the long run, the "lots of Marbits" is probably better. Gems will be exhausted. If the high rate of Marbit production remains indefinitely, they get a bunch of free Marbits. Plus what is GK even using cash for anyway?
I disagree. Any argument that you can make in favor of a decrypted marbit unit also applies to gobwins, GK can use their gobwins as cannon fodder and immediately replace them with decrypted gobwins. Plus with gobwins, they can spawn as many as they need in a single turn, limited only by their funds. Nothing said that there was a "high rate" of marbits being spawned - just that they were ONLY finding marbits when they were looking; they were never finding gobwins.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:21 pm

bladestorm wrote:Occam's razor does not favour your argument, since the question at hand didn't deal with Charlie's involvement with the Gobwins disappearing -- it dealt with the possibility of Charlie being the lone survivor of a side from long ago, and his capitol city somehow lost the ability to produce any other unit type other than Archons. [...] The use of gobwins and hobgobwins was just an example of a side no longer producing a unit that it formerly did.

He was responding to your example. Text updates explicitly state that under normal conditions, GK's scouts should have found a randomly popped gobwin tribe within a few turns, allowing GK to produce gobwins again.

The question Kristor was referring to was the cause of the lack of gobwins. His theory was that some malign force (like Charlie) was hiding or croaking the gobwins before they could be found. He interpreted your explaination to be that the gobwins simply weren't popping wild anymore. Of those two arguements, Occam's Razor does indeed favor the former.

But the real point is that we can't take this situation as evidence of a process where Sides slowly lose unit types; we'd need to see it happen multiple times to multiple sides for that. Occam's Razor opposes this possibility as well, because we'd have to make up a way to lose unit types that don't come from natural allies.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:22 pm

bladestorm wrote:Occam's razor does not favour your argument, since the question at hand didn't deal with Charlie's involvement with the Gobwins disappearing -- it dealt with the possibility of Charlie being the lone survivor of a side from long ago, and his capitol city somehow lost the ability to produce any other unit type other than Archons.


No, it didn't. I was disagreeing with your example, not your premise.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:25 pm

So if Marbits are a natural ally of Jetstone, and Gobwin Knob takes over Jetstone, how does that impact the rule that Marbits cannot ally themselves with any side that has gobwins/hobgobwins/witches/demons?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:10 pm

bladestorm wrote:So if Marbits are a natural ally of Jetstone, and Gobwin Knob takes over Jetstone, how does that impact the rule that Marbits cannot ally themselves with any side that has gobwins/hobgobwins/witches/demons?
If they take over Jetstone, they have a second capital-capable city, but it would just be a normal city. The Jetstone side is determined by the ruler; changing capitals shouldn't force a change of allies. Look at FAQ - Stanley could have taken over FAQ but would probably make it pop his own units, but Jillian returns to it and starts popping gwiffons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:23 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
bladestorm wrote:So if Marbits are a natural ally of Jetstone, and Gobwin Knob takes over Jetstone, how does that impact the rule that Marbits cannot ally themselves with any side that has gobwins/hobgobwins/witches/demons?
If they take over Jetstone, they have a second capital-capable city, but it would just be a normal city. The Jetstone side is determined by the ruler; changing capitals shouldn't force a change of allies. Look at FAQ - Stanley could have taken over FAQ but would probably make it pop his own units, but Jillian returns to it and starts popping gwiffons.

I think capital sites have a set of units tied to them. If barbarian Stanley took over FAQ I suspect it would be popping gwiffions. Although we haven't been told for sure. Regardless what cities pop has no connection to allies. Oh and taking over Jetstone would grant third (well probably fourth fourth or maybe more) capital site. Unaroyal was already taken. And milquetoast was eliminated as well but we don't know if that required seizing the capital.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:01 pm

Lamech wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Look at FAQ - Stanley could have taken over FAQ but would probably make it pop his own units, but Jillian returns to it and starts popping gwiffons.
I think capital sites have a set of units tied to them. If barbarian Stanley took over FAQ I suspect it would be popping gwiffions.

There's also the fact Faq was a ruin that had to be rebuilt to throw even more uncertainty into the mix. If a working Side rebuilt a city, even a capitol site, then I'd expect it to pop the rebuilding side's units. But if it's rebuilt by a barbarian... who knows? It could be that it keeps the unit types from before, it could be that the barbarian gets to choose, it could be random.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:43 pm

Complete speculation, but it could be a combination of the two. The city site itself has certain units attached to it, but the leadership can add more variety to the mix. GK typically produces Plaid Tribe humans and twolls, can ally with Gobwins and Hobgobwins to produce them as well, and has dwagons and spidews for the nonsentient pops. Stanley adds to the ability to pop dwagons and sways the odds that the infantry will be pikers. Sizemore adds golems and possibly modifies the gobwins, Wanda adds in uncroaked and now decrypted, and I have no idea what Maggie brings to the table. So I think the typical ratio is one main units race, two allies, and two nonsentient units. For Faq, the main unit would be humans, the allies would be the giants, nonsentient would be gwiffons and megalogwiffs. Jillian is prolly swaying the balance to more stabbers. Ansom seems to sway towards more siege units.

Then of course the level of the city may play something into that. I recall something about a city needing to be level 2 before it can produce spidews, and level 3 to produce dwagons. How does a city gain levels anyway? Did GK get xp for the slaughter within its walls during the Volcano Uncroaking? Or just investment of Schmuckers?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Ytaker » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:25 pm

Lamech wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
bladestorm wrote:So if Marbits are a natural ally of Jetstone, and Gobwin Knob takes over Jetstone, how does that impact the rule that Marbits cannot ally themselves with any side that has gobwins/hobgobwins/witches/demons?
If they take over Jetstone, they have a second capital-capable city, but it would just be a normal city. The Jetstone side is determined by the ruler; changing capitals shouldn't force a change of allies. Look at FAQ - Stanley could have taken over FAQ but would probably make it pop his own units, but Jillian returns to it and starts popping gwiffons.

I think capital sites have a set of units tied to them. If barbarian Stanley took over FAQ I suspect it would be popping gwiffions. Although we haven't been told for sure. Regardless what cities pop has no connection to allies. Oh and taking over Jetstone would grant third (well probably fourth fourth or maybe more) capital site. Unaroyal was already taken. And milquetoast was eliminated as well but we don't know if that required seizing the capital.


We have been told for sure. In the intermission they regularly tore down cities and rebuilt them so they'd pop Stanley's units. One of Stanley's updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:45 pm

Kreistor wrote:Which suggests interference by a major player with an excess of units that have long movement ranges to hunt for Gobwins and then hide. Barbaians pop at beginning of Day, so the antagonist would need to have a Natural Turn Order before GK. The obvious culprit is Charlie, who fits all of those requirements. If GK intends to assault Charlescomm, with its mountainous terrain, then GK needs tunnel-capable units. For GK, that means Gobwins and Spidews. Keeping Gobwins out of GK's hands is in Charlie's direct interest. Further, it gives him units to occupy his own tunnels.


Charlie doesn't need to be sending Archons into every hex where Gobwins are popping. A hired findamancer or lookamancer to find the Gobwins, plus thinkagrams to negotiate with them, would be enough to ally with them and ask them to gather somewhere. A concurrent possibility is that Charlie is coordinating Marbit raids.

Has it been established whether Archons are totally immune to foolamancy? If so, then I'm not sure sending Archons out would even help hide the Gobwins.

Come to think of it, if the Gobwins can escape GK's dragnet without assistance from Foolamancy, it could be the GMTTA instead, so that they can hold GK hostage to get Parson to do what they want. If this is the case, we will find out very soon.

It could even be both Charlie (hunting Gobwins) and the GMTTA (helping Gobwins escape).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:54 am

Actually, I don't think Charlie has anything to do with the absence of Gobwins... I think the Gobwins are hiding of their own accord. Why and for what purpose remain a mystery, but I think it'll become clearer in Book 3.


Ytaker wrote:We have been told for sure. In the intermission they regularly tore down cities and rebuilt them so they'd pop Stanley's units. One of Stanley's updates.

IIRC that update said built cities "pop the same kinds of units as the capitol"; so they were Gobwin Knob's unit types. It's really up for grabs what Faq would have been able to pop had it been rebuilt by a barbarian Stanley.

Also, the fact that the site itself was a capitol site may (or may not) give it a stronger connection to the kinds of units it can produce. We just don't have enough information to make any clear judgement calls.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Oberon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:52 am

Swodaems wrote:We're either going to get the whole doomed, overdone, Romeo/Juliet death scene or some boringly invincible, but pretty, heroes.
Why can't we have both?

Is it only me that found Sylvia to be acting out of character? Not in her plan to burn the garrison, that's true to form. But in her speech and mannerisms. She seems almost light hearted and jovial, not the grim Sylvia we've come to know.
Zeku wrote:I can't substantiate this, but I'm guessing that Artemis was the price that was paid for Sylvia, if that's what actually happened.
Wha? So, in exchange for the life of one of your level 1 units you get to kill off a high level warlord from another side? I'd pay that price over and over. Hell, I'd arrange to have as many of my level 1 stabbers immobilized as Jefti could sustain with his juice, just to kill off as many high level warlords of other sides as was possible.
Kreistor wrote:Something is preventing GK from finding Gobwins.

Which suggests interference by a major player with an excess of units that have long movement ranges to hunt for Gobwins and then hide. Barbaians pop at beginning of Day, so the antagonist would need to have a Natural Turn Order before GK. The obvious culprit is Charlie, who fits all of those requirements. If GK intends to assault Charlescomm, with its mountainous terrain, then GK needs tunnel-capable units. For GK, that means Gobwins and Spidews. Keeping Gobwins out of GK's hands is in Charlie's direct interest. Further, it gives him units to occupy his own tunnels.
I really, really hope that you are wrong. Because if you're correct, then the dragon spotting GK archons who are also ensuring Stanley's safety on his taming trips, specifically because they can see veiled enemy units, have somehow managed to miss spotting all of Charlie's archons who are combing the area around GK killing off any gobwins which pop every turn.

And that would require a lot of 'splainin'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:29 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Which suggests interference by a major player with an excess of units that have long movement ranges to hunt for Gobwins and then hide. Barbaians pop at beginning of Day, so the antagonist would need to have a Natural Turn Order before GK. The obvious culprit is Charlie, who fits all of those requirements. If GK intends to assault Charlescomm, with its mountainous terrain, then GK needs tunnel-capable units. For GK, that means Gobwins and Spidews. Keeping Gobwins out of GK's hands is in Charlie's direct interest. Further, it gives him units to occupy his own tunnels.


Charlie doesn't need to be sending Archons into every hex where Gobwins are popping. A hired findamancer or lookamancer to find the Gobwins, plus thinkagrams to negotiate with them, would be enough to ally with them and ask them to gather somewhere. A concurrent possibility is that Charlie is coordinating Marbit raids.

Has it been established whether Archons are totally immune to foolamancy? If so, then I'm not sure sending Archons out would even help hide the Gobwins.

Come to think of it, if the Gobwins can escape GK's dragnet without assistance from Foolamancy, it could be the GMTTA instead, so that they can hold GK hostage to get Parson to do what they want. If this is the case, we will find out very soon.

It could even be both Charlie (hunting Gobwins) and the GMTTA (helping Gobwins escape).
I've assumed it was Charlie giving the Marbits bags of cash. The marbits are now everywhere, and the gobwins have no place they can live.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:45 am

Oberon wrote:Because if you're correct, then the dragon spotting GK archons who are also ensuring Stanley's safety on his taming trips, specifically because they can see veiled enemy units, have somehow managed to miss spotting all of Charlie's archons who are combing the area around GK killing off any gobwins which pop every turn.

And that would require a lot of 'splainin'.

You can hide units without resorting to foolamancy. The GK archons were looking for gigantic dwagons who weren't trying to hide, not tiny Charlescomm archons who were. Foolamancy can only make them harder to see, no matter how transparent the disguise.

And if the infiltrators, whoever they were, hid in the tunnels instead of outside, they wouldn't have to worry about the dwagon-seekers at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:39 am

Oberon wrote:Because if you're correct, then the dragon spotting GK archons who are also ensuring Stanley's safety on his taming trips, specifically because they can see veiled enemy units, have somehow managed to miss spotting all of Charlie's archons who are combing the area around GK killing off any gobwins which pop every turn.

And that would require a lot of 'splainin'.


You an only see through a veil if you have line of sight on the enemy. Mountainous terrain includes tunnels, crags, forests... lots of hiding spots to make seeing the veiled subject difficult in the first place.

But also consider that the GK Archons are not looking inside FAQ territory. The Cc Archons can fly in, check, then retreat to FAQ and never have a chance of being spotted.

And, yeah, killing them might work, too, but you still leave a corpse that could be found. You're still stuck trying to hide that.

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:the GMTTA (helping Gobwins escape).


Motive? The GMTTA want Cc taken down. Removing Gobwins from GK is against that stated motivation, making Parson's job harder.
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