Book 2 – Page 87

[MonteCristo]

Jetstone is still quite dead. The only option they have is retreat at this point, unless I'm misreading it entirely. Nothing can wipe out the dwagons, and GK's turn is coming up.

Not at all. Jetstone not only had plenty of forces left. Tremmanis even believe that with their forces they could potentially take on GK's forces, however with decryption to replenish the GK forces with jetstone's fallen, it might be too risky of a fight if it were to end as a net gain for GK. Its still a fairly even fight, though one that may lean in GK's favor when they have both wanda and a CW. Which is why parson sees it important for them to have a CW on the scene, without that bonus the battle might lean in favor of jetstone, or atleast has the possible outcome of them winning but with heavy losses. This battle is too close for them to pass up on any big multipliers

Maggie still wants Parson to go through the portal. Charlie would also want Parson to lose his neutral status with the MK. Now that she's discovered he's just floundering about, she no longer has a justification for pushing him in that direction, and has become silent and contrite. This could mean a lot, or nothing. The smart move for Parson right now, is to march right back to GK and ask Stanley to promote a new CW, within Spacerock.

This does beg the question as to why parson didn't do that in the first place and try to convince Stanely to pick a different CW... could be that the reason he didn't do it is because he thought the suggestion would make it impossible to reason with Stanley since he's now under influence to keep parson as CW. Hence why he needs to go with this desperate gamble.

[Avic]

I was thinking about this a few comics ago, and while I'm probably not the first one to mention it, I haven't noticed it in any of the discussion threads so far: one of the other main unique threats that GK has, other than the ability to decrypt, was being able to field dozens of strong flying units capable of acting as mounts, along with several utility features, including siege damage...the dwagons. And, while they can pop these units, we know that hunting for them is more efficient, time-wise, and it's good for Stanley's morale. The problem now is, without the decrypted Archons they had, GK can no longer take the chance of Stanley leaving the capital to hunt them. This is a two-fold problem. First, their military power, as well as their relay mount system, is going to take a major hit. Second, Stanley's major means of stress relief at this point in the story has been dwagon hunting, and we've all seen what happens when Stanley gets stressed.

[hajo]

Jetstone is still quite dead.

Not at all. Jetstone not only had plenty of forces left.

Jetstone is broke, and cannot pay the upkeep of all their forces.
Without some "sponsor", most of them will be gone in a few turns.

Tremmanis even believe that with their forces they could potentially take on GK's forces

Trem argued that GK would be strong enough to win

ask Stanley to promote a new CW, within Spacerock. ..
why parson didn't do that in the first place and try to convince Stanely to pick a different CW.

Parson was doing just that.

[Berserkas]

If Jetstone attacks now, with Wanda still in the Magic Kingdom, they could wipe out GK's forces. They still have a huge amount of infantry, unkown amounts of spare archery (they could just get up someplace higher, out of reach of dwagons, and shoot at Sylvia's group 'til they all die. The only archer they have is the Captain, so GK can't fight back very well) , casters and warlords and whatnot.

Hell, Jeststone probably has a large amount of Cloth Golems still. Remember those? The ones they used to utterly destroy GK's ground forces? Yeah. With Ace giving his bonus, and a warlord to add, they would probably be a close match to the Dwagons. Add thousands of infantry, archery, and suddenly Jetstone doesn't look so doomed, does it?

Whether it all turns into a defeat hangs on one, extremely simple tactic: As soon as one of their soldiers fall, Jetstone should drag the corpses out of the city area as fast as they freaking can. That way, even if Wanda returns from the Magic Kingdom in the middle of the fight, she will have no corpses to decrypt, while GK's forces should be seriously diminished.

[MonteCristo]

Jetstone is still quite dead.

Not at all. Jetstone not only had plenty of forces left.

Jetstone is broke, and cannot pay the upkeep of all their forces.
Without some "sponsor", most of them will be gone in a few turns.

the page you linked contradicts your statement; Jetstone is down on hard times, but its clear Tremmanis does believe that the side does have a future if they win the battle since he talks as though the royals could ultimately win

Tremmanis even believe that with their forces they could potentially take on GK's forces

Trem argued that GK would be strong enough to win

Again, battle not the war
In regards to the battle, Trem has said that jetstone had better numbers and leadership and that could give them the edge, but admits with decryption GK may hold the edge
In regards to the war, the page you linked has Trem saying that GK COULD win the war without decyption; "could" as in meaning "possibly". He was by no means claiming GK's victory was certain and that they held a clear upperhand

ask Stanley to promote a new CW, within Spacerock. ..
why parson didn't do that in the first place and try to convince Stanely to pick a different CW.

Parson was doing just that.

Yes, but that's not what i was asking, what i'm asking is why didn't parson argue with stanely over the position AFTER Maggie "suggested" he make parson CW and convince stanley to change his mind and give someone else the CW position, instead of heading right into the magic kingdom. Only answer i can think of would be that Parson knew that the suggestion spell would make it impossible for him to convince Stanley

[M.A.D]

Yes, but that's not what i was asking, what i'm asking is why didn't parson argue with stanely over the position AFTER Maggie "suggested" he make parson CW and convince stanley to change his mind and give someone else the CW position, instead of heading right into the magic kingdom. Only answer i can think of would be that Parson knew that the suggestion spell would make it impossible for him to convince Stanley

Did you not see Stanley leaving for the larder? People do NOT stand between Stanley and the larder

[oslecamo2_temp]

Really refreshing comic with lots of clarifications. The kind is dead! Short live the duplicate?

I must say this comic is another proof that Stanley has a much bigger vision that most people credit him for.

Hamster's biggest strength is his tactical genius, and he doesn't need to be a Chief Warlord to acomplish that. He can fully support GK just fine staying in the safety of the capital sending orders trough thinkmancy. Then let some high level warlord risk their ass in the frontline in order to carry that juicy Chief Warlord bonus to the troops.

Only Stanley (and Hamster himself) could see that. I was wondering all this time why Hamster was gambling so much trying to cross the MK, and the answer is plain simple-he needs that CW bonus on the frontline, and thanks to Maggie's conspiracy that means geting his big ass in the tick of the fighting.

Parson was doing just that.

Yes, but that's not what i was asking, what i'm asking is why didn't parson argue with stanely over the position AFTER Maggie "suggested" he make parson CW and convince stanley to change his mind and give someone else the CW position, instead of heading right into the magic kingdom. Only answer i can think of would be that Parson knew that the suggestion spell would make it impossible for him to convince Stanley

Also because if he tried to argue against it, Stanley may realize Maggie actively betrayed GK for her own MK conspiracy, and Hamster doesn't want Maggie disbanded. Just yet.

This is a refreshing nail in the coffin of the whole "units auto-disband if they go against their side". We've got mancers everywhere leading their sides to their doom in the name of prophecies. No wonder Stanley has become paranoid.

[Tathar]

I've said this before, but we're gearing up for a GK/JS alliance here.

EDIT: Also, mad Parson is best Parson.

[Oberon]

Is it still 'holding the idiot ball' if Parson KNOWS he's holding the idiot ball, and this whole thing was a bad move?

Nah, Parson has been over the idiot ball for a while. GK was doomed by all calculations after (*ptui!*) Kingworld. But after dwagonfall you've got Trem telling Slately that the side is in mortal danger and they must get Slately out at all costs.

Parson is doing what he always does: What he can with what he has. Maggie effectively vetoed Parson's choices for CWL, so he's moving his own bonus there for whatever boost he can give. That still may be 2, or perhaps he leveled, or perhaps his load up on magic items may assist his Leadership. But even his plus 2 is better than nothing.

Jetstone is still quite dead. The only option they have is retreat at this point, unless I'm misreading it entirely.

Jetstone has a few options for survival:
Use the reward schmuckers from Charlie to promote Trem (and get him out of the city);
If it is even possible, use the Dittomancer to sustain Faux-Slately until a heir can be promoted (with the loss of most units in Spacerock their upkeep should drop considerably);
Win (Parson doesn't consider this fight to be a done deal, at least).

Also, since Bunny only communicates via thinkagram, she's an open conduit for Charlescomm.

Why is she using a thinkagram when she and Don are in the same city? Seems a waste of juice.

As for onsite CWL, Wanda would have been an excellent choice at the time he made that option available.
[...]
Or promote the last Archon, just to muck with how they do not know how to handle a CWL.
[...]
Or have Isaac go through the portal, hire him on the spot, promote him to CWL
[...]
Or to get really out there, send Jojo through the portal, hire and promote him

None of those units have any canon examples of being able to be promoted to CWL. The only one with any slight canon support might be the archon, which hypothetically could be promoted to warlord and then to CWL. With Tarfu being a warlord for the woodsy elves, it's possible that an archon could also be a warlord or CWL. But, were that true, why would Charlie rely upon archons with the leadership special and have no CWL? So I'm going to guess that no, archons cannot be warlords or a CWL.

Also at the time, Ossomer would have been a prime candidate. That would have sucked though if he turned as CWL. First Ansom, then Ossomer.

Ansom turned? Ansom was captured by Jillian, who intends to turn him. But I don't think she's even home at FAQ yet. I suppose her turnamancer could attempt it in the field, but right now she's out of juice so that'd have to wait for the Jetstone turn to end, the GK turn to end, and then any other interested parties (since Charlie and Haggar have already gone, and I'm guessing that TV is allied with Jetstone and is going now but only has a bat present).

Sylvia is an obvious options. She would most vigourously carry out Parson's commands. But that brings up questions about how well a decrypted could serve as CWL, or if there is some mechanic preventing that (such as Loyalty to Wanda clashing with Duty towards Side).

Are you reading this comic? Ansom, the very first decrypted, was CWL for GK until he was captured by Jillian. Then Ossomer, another decrypted, was promoted. There's no reason except for the new revelation that the decrypted can turn to prevent Sylvia from being made CWL. And Ossomer had a lot of pressures on him (that whole "attacking my father and former side" and "engaging in conversation with said father") that Sylvia does not.

CharlieWatch: We now know that whatever Charlie is, he's not tall enough or wide enough to stick out past the chair back. Progress!

Where are you seeing Charlie? In the top window of the tower? That's good eyesight!

[hajo]

Trem argued that GK would be strong enough to win

Again, battle not the war
In regards to the battle, Trem has said that jetstone had better numbers and leadership and that could give them the edge, but admits with decryption GK may hold the edge

In regards to the war, the page you linked has Trem saying that GK COULD win the war without decyption; "could" as in meaning "possibly". He was by no means claiming GK's victory was certain and that they held a clear upperhand

War, not battle.

Trem said "Eventually", as in "given a few turns time",
and "crush the coalition", as in "GK could finally win the war".

And all that even if JS would win the battle, croak Wanda, and get the 'plier.

So, JS is not strong enough to beat GK, and Trem makes his case to go for diplomacy and bargaining.

[wrecan]

I wonder, since Parson admits he has no plan, that TGMtTA may make the following deal:

1. Parson agrees to go to the mind-hive to talk things out with Isaac
2. Isaac promises to send enough Thinkamancers into the battle to ensure that GK takes Jetstone. (To keep things legal, GK hires tGMtTA for a nominal fee.)

But here's a more intriguing development
1. Don knows Charlie is eavesdropping on Bunny's bat-gram.
2. Don has been buying transcripts of Bunny's late-night chats with Caesar from Charlie for many turns.
3. Don, in his current think-a-chat with Bunny, calls for Charlie.
4. Don knows of Charlie's deal with Tramennis. He also knows JS will dissolve at the end of turn when the duplicate disappears.
5. So Don lends his moneymancer (Benjamin) to Charlie in exchange for any number of things (such as free thinkamancy services so he no longer needs disloyal Bunny).
6. Benjamin heads from TV to JS, where he promptly transfers schmuckers for the captured archon from Charlie to GK and allows an immediate promotion of Tramennis.
7. New Tramennis escapes with the remnants of JS to wherever it is their remaining cities are.

And here's my final wild speculation of the week...
1. Don is not planning to punish Caesar or Bunny for their near-treason.
2. Don is waiting for his heir to pop and then he plans to release Caesar to lead as a new Side with Bunny. Someplace flanking Carpool, so they can be mutual allies against their common enemy and not enemies themselves (at least not in the short run).
3. Caesar takes Bunny and a few junior warlords. Don keeps Benjamin, a lucrative contract with Charlie, Vinny, and most of his Cities.

(I imagine if Caesar Borgata started its own side, it would have a Vegas-Vampire theme instead of Don King's Mafia-Vampire theme. He'd pop a Rat Pack of warlords and all sorts of gambling-punned casters and warlords.)

[drachefly]

Then Ossomer, another decrypted, was promoted.

Ossomer was never CWL of GK, so what do you mean here?

CharlieWatch: We now know that whatever Charlie is, he's not tall enough or wide enough to stick out past the chair back. Progress!

Where are you seeing Charlie? In the top window of the tower? That's good eyesight!

I think Arky interpreted the tower as a throne. An outdoor throne.

As for Bunny, I suspect that she's got the 'mute' special. She doesn't know thinkagrams can be tapped, so she doesn't use a pen and paper - thinkagram is more natural. And though Charlie could be listening in on them, I suspect that he's mainly tapping the bat connection. The literal allusion 'anybody coulda seen it' practically screams it.

Speaking of which, I think the last two speech bubbles are kind of switched. That last line doesn't seem like her, while the second-to-last does.

[Sieggy]

Whatever Charlie's going to do, he needs to do it NOW, as at the end of the turn, I suspect the DoppelSlately is going to vanish, and everyone on the JS side vanishes. Now, the question is (assuming that Charlie can get the funds transferred in time, which I don't think will be a problem as plot advancement demands it) whether or not a duplicate can designate an heir. I'm assuming he can, otherwise as soon as the last JS defender is killed and the capitol falls, everyone winds up in chains. Also, once again assuming Wanda can get back through the portal before the next turn starts (and the real Slately's body depops), if she decrypts him, is he still ruler? What happens to a side with two rulers? The implications of this are . . . amusing.

And I think it's become fairly clear by now that the security that tGMtTA have trusted is about as impenetrable as the Enigma system was . . . Charlie seems to have been able to tap the 'super secret G string messaging system', which is how Jojo was able to be on station waiting for Parson on such short notice.

Great episode, BTW, the subtleties in the art are fantastic!

[0beron]

An oddity, though, was that we were outright told that it was the original Slately that croaked. That seems too rushed and too cut and dried for the story so far

It was rushed and such because people were idiots to think it was the double that had fallen, so Rob was shutting them up. The "doubling me THIS way" quote was a slightly awkward attempt by Rob to confirm this, but people took that as the opposite way it was intended, so now he had to make it 100% clear so nobody would keep doubting.

So now, yes we are only left to wonder how long the double will last, something that may be answered by Bunny, Don, or Charlie the next time we see them.

Speaking of Bunny AND Maggie, Maggie's necklace has been noticed before (yes, you have been failing that Awareness check since the start of Book 1...lol) and it is the sign of the Great Minds. Bunny does NOT wear this sign anywhere that we can see, which leads me to suspect (previously, but even more strongly so now) that she is actually on the Charlie side of the conflict in the Psionics War.

[wrecan]

Bunny does NOT wear this sign anywhere that we can see, which leads me to suspect (previously, but even more strongly so now) that she is actually on the Charlie side of the conflict in the Psionics War.

I think she's not in the war at all. I think she's too deeply embedded with her side to be part of the war directly. (I'd be surprised if Bunny ever entered the MK or had any direct contact with other thinkamancers.) So, to the extent she's on "Charlie's side" it's only because she's on Don King's side and right now Don King and Charlie are both trying to prop up Jetstone, and Don King has absolutely no reason to support tGMtTA.

[wrecan]

As for what the four prophecies are...

1. Defeat Charlie for tGMtTA
2. End War on Erf (probably by breaking Erf)
3. Unite Wanda with the Arkenpliers (already fulfilled)

These are the ones we know about. Winning the Battle for Gobwin Knob was not a prophecy.

So what's the fourth? Bring together the Arkentools? Kill a Titan? Die so Erf may live? Find the mythical fifth Arkentool? Who knows.

[Nnelg]

Spoiler'd for length, after three false starts because I wanted to reply to a new post.

Spoiler: show

If Jetstone attacks now, with Wanda still in the Magic Kingdom, they could wipe out GK's forces.

They very well could win, but... It would be a foolish risk. If they lose either Slately or Trammenis, they've lost the war; whereas GK still has an army only a few turn's march from Spacerock. It's just not worth the risk.

Besides, they don't know that Wanda is in the MK. Nor that Parson is on his way.

Yes, but that's not what i was asking, what i'm asking is why didn't parson argue with stanely over the position AFTER Maggie "suggested" he make parson CW and convince stanley to change his mind and give someone else the CW position, instead of heading right into the magic kingdom. Only answer i can think of would be that Parson knew that the suggestion spell would make it impossible for him to convince Stanley

Right. It's probable the only way he could have would have been to betray Maggie, whom would have surely been disbanded for her insolence. Parson's not that cold... Anymore.

Jetstone has a few options for survival:
[...]
Win (Parson doesn't consider this fight to be a done deal, at least).

Still not a surviving option. GK didn't commit all of its forces in this battle: it still has an army no more than a few turns away. They need to escape that army to survive.

Why is she using a thinkagram when she and Don are in the same city? Seems a waste of juice.

To keep the demoralizing truth hidden from everyone else in the war room. (And juice isn't conserved that strictly!)

Also at the time, Ossomer would have been a prime candidate. That would have sucked though if he turned as CWL. First Ansom, then Ossomer.

Ansom turned?

I think he means it would have sucked to have lost two Chief Warlords in one turn. (Having one actually turn is just the insult added to the injury.)

There's no reason except for the new revelation that the decrypted can turn to prevent Sylvia from being made CWL.

But Stanly wants a Chief Warlord that's loyal to him, not the 'Pliers.

Where are you seeing Charlie? In the top window of the tower? That's good eyesight!

I think Arky interpreted the tower as a throne. An outdoor throne.

No, I see it too. The tower has a big oval-shaped window on it: in said window can be seen a small figure of what appears to be a person.

I'm not sure about the throne thing though, it seems lacking in details to me. From what I could tell, he could very well be on the porcelain throne..

As for Bunny, I suspect that she's got the 'mute' special.

Hm, seems possible. I certainly don't recall her ever speaking before. I guess I just assumed she was the shy, silent type; but adding muteness on top of that seems cooler.

And I think it's become fairly clear by now that the security that tGMtTA have trusted is about as impenetrable as the Enigma system was . . . Charlie seems to have been able to tap the 'super secret G string messaging system', which is how Jojo was able to be on station waiting for Parson on such short notice.

I take it you mean to say that it's not very secure at all? If so, you could have picked a much better metaphor than Enigma. Because it was about as penetrable as the Great Wall of China.

Besides, G-Strings haven't necessarily been cracked. Charlie could have figured out what was going on from Parson-Wanda/Jack thinkagram traffic, or Jojo could have just been in the area when he spotted a target of opportunity.

EDIT:
Oops, I forgot one reply I was going to make:

Spoiler: show

The problem now is, without the decrypted Archons they had, GK can no longer take the chance of Stanley leaving the capital to hunt them. This is a two-fold problem. First, their military power, as well as their relay mount system, is going to take a major hit. Second, Stanley's major means of stress relief at this point in the story has been dwagon hunting, and we've all seen what happens when Stanley gets stressed.

Well, Stanley probably hasn't been able to go dwagon-hunting for a while already, unless there were archons left behind at GK that we don't know about. But then again, Stanley might have seen this as a temporary state of affairs, and the fact that he won't be getting his archons back after the Battle of Spacerock might hit him hard. Hm...

I wonder... Maybe Stanley will decide to appoint an heir so that he can keep going out without risking the entire side. And while I can't imagine him popping one... I can see him appointing a secret heir.

There's one unit on his side that he could appoint without anyone knowing. Perhaps he already has...

[DoctorJest]

Jetstone is still quite dead. The only option they have is retreat at this point, unless I'm misreading it entirely. Nothing can wipe out the dwagons, and GK's turn is coming up.

Not at all. Jetstone not only had plenty of forces left. Tremmanis even believe that with their forces they could potentially take on GK's forces, however with decryption to replenish the GK forces with jetstone's fallen, it might be too risky of a fight if it were to end as a net gain for GK. Its still a fairly even fight, though one that may lean in GK's favor when they have both wanda and a CW. Which is why parson sees it important for them to have a CW on the scene, without that bonus the battle might lean in favor of jetstone, or atleast has the possible outcome of them winning but with heavy losses. This battle is too close for them to pass up on any big multipliers

The risk to Jetstone is much greater because if they commit to trying to actually hold the city, then they could, potentially, have their whole side ended. Sylvia just pointed out that if GK captures the garrison, then it would be GK's turn and the whole of Jetstone's force are sitting ducks in the airspace, with a ruler duplicate that will last until... when, exactly? If Tram isn't promoted to heir, then the side ends when that dupe does. If Tram is promoted to heir and then becomes ruler, if he gets croaked, the side ends. If, however, Jetstone bugs out, promotes Tram to heir, they can establish one of their other cities as a capital and regroup/rebuild.

And even if Jetstone holds Spacerock and wins this battle, they'll be facing another entire army in just a few turns, with no tower, a weakened garrison, AND almost no troops left.

The smart move here is to bug out of Spacerock and re-consolidate elsewhere. The win condition for Jetstone here is to leave the battlespace with their side in tact. Doing anything else would be stupidly risky and probably pointless.

Edit: and it's Tramennis, not Tremmenis, Tremmanis, or Trammenis.

[technojunkie]

A statement echoes in my head: "Don't be a fool, it hurts."

[Tathar]

Trem argued that GK would be strong enough to win

Again, battle not the war
In regards to the battle, Trem has said that jetstone had better numbers and leadership and that could give them the edge, but admits with decryption GK may hold the edge

In regards to the war, the page you linked has Trem saying that GK COULD win the war without decyption; "could" as in meaning "possibly". He was by no means claiming GK's victory was certain and that they held a clear upperhand

War, not battle.

Trem said "Eventually", as in "given a few turns time",
and "crush the coalition", as in "GK could finally win the war".

And all that even if JS would win the battle, croak Wanda, and get the 'plier.

So, JS is not strong enough to beat GK, and Trem makes his case to go for diplomacy and bargaining.

And I rest my case that GK and JS are going to form an alliance.